Heat = just better than Thunder....

[pillmanj]

Nothing to do with Harden? The guy is an all-star averaging 26, 6, and 5. I am pretty sure the Thunder did not get better by losing him.

Harden did just as much for us Thursday night as he did in the finals last year

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[sperry]

Really wish we had Harden. I was in favor of keeping Harden over Ibaka, and the way this year has played out has just reinforced that in my mind.

 

[playmakr]

Really wish we had Harden. I was in favor of keeping Harden over Ibaka, and the way this year has played out has just reinforced that in my mind.

Could they have afforded Harden over Ibaka?

And what do you mean by how it's played out? The are 39-14, and were 40-14 last year.

And of course the Heat are better, they just started 3 guys in the All-Star game lol

 

[Smash Williams]

The Knicks match up nicely with the Heat but we'll see. Thunder are too perimeter oriented and soft. They still remind me of those early Dirk Mavs teams that could never get past the Spurs.

I buy the first sentence but not the rest of your statement.

You can't champion the Knicks, then argue that another team is too perimeter-oriented. The Knicks lead the league in 3PA despite playing at one of the slowest paces. The Knicks lead the league in % of field goal attempts from 3-point range at 35.8% (Houston is second at 35.1%, the Lakers are third at only 30.7%, and the league average is 25%), and they're 25th in % of FGA at the rim and 30th in % of shots from 3-9 feet. The Knicks aren't really pounding teams with low post scoring; 7.8% of their possessions are post-ups, compared to OKC's 6.8%. As good as Melo is in the post, a lot of his value in that area lies in the ability to generate open 3s for teammates. OKC's scoring is predicated upon perimeter players getting to the rim and drawing fouls, which isn't any more perimeter-oriented than New York's 3-point launching.

As for the Thunder being soft, I don't know if that's meant in the physical or mental sense; however, I don't buy it either way. They lose games by falling into big holes early much more often than by collapsing at the end. If anything, they're very mentally resilient. I don't see how OKC is physically soft, either. What makes the Knicks less soft than the Thunder? They're much worse than OKC defensively, they're not scoring significantly more in the post, and they haven't proven themselves as a resilient unit in the postseason any more than the Thunder has (outside of Chandler and Kidd individually).

The Knicks match up better with the Heat than the Thunder do not because of toughness, but because the Knicks take better advantage of the Heat's aggressive defense by finding the open 3-point shooter on the weakside. When the Heat commit extra defenders to Durant and Westbrook coming off screens, those guys are still looking for their shots instead of the open man. However, I do think those early NYK-MIA games are misleading, as the Heat were still integrating new parts, and their defense is really vulnerable when their effort isn't all-out, which you typically can't expect early in the season from teams coming off a title.

 

[Smash Williams]

There was a sequence of three consecutive trips down the floor in the first quarter that stood out to me as an example of the Thunder's inability to move the ball to exploit the Heat's aggressive defense on Durant and Westbrook.

First play:

Durant comes off an Ibaka pick near the top of the key and drives right into a collapsing defense.

Aside from Ibaka being open, what you can't see on the screen is Martin in the left corner, completely unguarded as his closest defenders both have a foot in the paint.

Durant throws up an off-balance prayer over two Miami defenders.

Next play:

OKC goes to a Westbrook-Durant slip screen.

LeBron loses Durant as he dives into the paint, and Ray Allen leaves Kevin Martin to help on Durant.

Westbrook naturally rises for his patented challenged elbow jumper, as Kevin Martin stands unguarded behind the three-point line.

Related: Kevin Martin's 2012-13 shot chart.

Third play:

Westbrook sets a screen for Durant.

Cole leaves Westbrook in an attempt to corral Durant, and LeBron also gives chase to Durant.

Durant takes a contested 3-pointer with 14 seconds on the shot clock, as an open Westbrook watches. Also, Allen possibly could have recovered had Durant passed it to Martin in the corner, though Collison was also in position to potentially screen Allen before Durant went into his shooting motion and Collison left to get in position to rebound.

I've been very critical of Scott Brooks, but at the same time, his star players also have to make good decisions instead of forcing their own shots.

 

[playmakr]

Smash is a demigod

 

[bocabull]

When I say the thunder are perimeter oriented I'm pointing to my belief that they don't have a single player who they post up to run the offense through. The Knicks have both Melo & Stoudemire.

When I say they're soft I'm pointing to the fact that their best players are not strong or physically imposing. They truly are Thunder & Lightening which works on every team in the league except the Heat.

When they go into "hero mode", as bounce called it, every team in the league wilts. But that team in Miami just has a bigger, stronger, more complete hero.

 

[coolm]

When I say the thunder are perimeter oriented I'm pointing to my belief that they don't have a single player who they post up to run the offense through. The Knicks have both Melo & Stoudemire.

When I say they're soft I'm pointing to the fact that their best players are not strong or physically imposing. They truly are Thunder & Lightening which works on every team in the league except the Heat.

When they go into "hero mode", as bounce called it, every team in the league wilts. But that team in Miami just has a bigger, stronger, more complete hero.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

 

[Smash Williams]

When I say the thunder are perimeter oriented I'm pointing to my belief that they don't have a single player who they post up to run the offense through. The Knicks have both Melo & Stoudemire.

When I say they're soft I'm pointing to the fact that their best players are not strong or physically imposing. They truly are Thunder & Lightening which works on every team in the league except the Heat.

When they go into "hero mode", as bounce called it, every team in the league wilts. But that team in Miami just has a bigger, stronger, more complete hero.

The Knicks don't really play inside-out like that. From time to time, they'll post up Melo or Stoudemire on the block and let them work, but more often they'll iso them on the wing near the 3-point line or at the elbow, from which they'll drive to the basket or settle for a jumper. Even though Amare's post game looks much improved, posting him up isn't central to their offense.

In that first NY-MIA game, Melo didn't post up very often, and he didn't have much success when he did. Battier actually did a really good job defending him one-on-one. Almost all of the Knicks' 3-pointers were from swinging the ball to the open man off pick-and-roll action or guard penetration, not from posting up and kicking out. Also, most of Melo's own points were from those type of resulting catch-and-shoot situations or in transition.

And neither Melo nor Amare played in the second game, yet the Knicks again shredded the Heat with a barrage of threes, almost all of which came off driving and kicking or pulling up off the dribble.

Durant needs to get stronger, but I think the bigger issue is his and Westbrook's court vision. Westbrook is strong and physically imposing for a PG, but his low post bullying isn't especially fruitful because he often settles for bad shots and fails to make the right pass out of double teams. A little bit after that sequence I posted earlier, Westbrook pushes in transition, turns his back to the basket, backs down Norris Cole, draws the double, and attempts to bank a shot over two defenders when Durant and Martin are wide open. Or in that Memphis game, when Westbrook got that five-second call and blew up at Thabo afterward...a perfect example of him backing a defender down with the sole intention of getting himself a better shot opportunity. I love Westbrook overall, and he's a very good player as is, but it's frustrating knowing how much better he could be.

 

[gracefor24]

Smash is nailing the problem of the Thunder failing to exploit Martin's ability to spread the floor for the Thunder. When he's on the floor with KD and RW he isn't involved at all. It's painful to watch.

 

[stoops4pres]

Definitely didn't get better, but haven't been demonstratively worse either.

The biggest bummer about losing Harden is that it HASN'T made that much of a difference. Brooks refused to play him huge minutes with Durant and Westbrook so we really will never know what we truly lost.

Can you imagine rolling those 3 guys out for 40 minutes a game? Crazy.

I also think we see maybe Presti's first major mistake. I think he should have traded Westbrook instead of Harden.

Who says no to Westbrook for Curry? Not only would OKC have gotten a better fit but it would have been cheaper as well. Now you bring Curry, Harden, and Durant. Or what about Westbrook, Perkins, and picks for Curry/Lee? Now you put Lee at PF and Ibaka at C (which is really his true position).

OKC will never beat Miami in a 7 game series as long as you surround Durant with 3 non-shooters for 30-35 minutes a game.

Very good point about a topic I haven't really thought about.

I don't blame Presti for making the decision at that time; however, at this juncture you could make a case that Harden would've been the more ideal guard to stick with. Especially after tonight's performance.

I think the jury is ultimately still out on that deal, but that's a pretty solid point you've made.

Now, if Westbrook could ever live up to his potential on the defensive end, then we have a different story...

 

[Smash Williams]

Smash is nailing the problem of the Thunder failing to exploit Martin's ability to spread the floor for the Thunder. When he's on the floor with KD and RW he isn't involved at all. It's painful to watch.

I still take issue with Brooks' player rotations, especially against Miami, and have long been defender of Westbrook's decision-making largely on the grounds that their starting lineup didn't provide proper spacing; however, when you consider that Sefolosha is shooting 41.9% from 3-pt range (and 48.7% from the corners) since the beginning of last season, and that Ibaka is one of the league's best shooting bigs inside the arc (46% from 16-23 feet this year and last is David West/KG territory), it becomes harder to put so much blame on the supporting cast. Aside from Perkins, Westbrook isn't playing many minutes with another offensive liability.

Both Durant and Westbrook seemed to be making a more concerted effort to distribute, but it appears not to come naturally for them. I honestly don't know how much a player can improve his court vision after reaching the NBA level.

 

[Smash Williams]

Very good point about a topic I haven't really thought about.

I don't blame Presti for making the decision at that time; however, at this juncture you could make a case that Harden would've been the more ideal guard to stick with. Especially after tonight's performance.

I think the jury is ultimately still out on that deal, but that's a pretty solid point you've made.

Now, if Westbrook could ever live up to his potential on the defensive end, then we have a different story...

I have long thought that the gap between Westbrook and Harden was nowhere near as wide as most people believed, but I gave Westbrook the edge--especially long term--because his athleticism sticks out so much. However, as these guys are becoming less about potential as they inch closer to being finished products, I'm getting serious doubts about Westbrook living up to his potential as a two-way player, which is supposed to be the difference between he and Harden in the long run.

I hated the Harden trade when it happened. I understand the economic realities that spurred it, but I was incredibly high on him, especially compared to other OKC fans, most of whom believed he was largely the product of playing with Durant and Westbrook. Martin is a one-year rental, Lamb is a low lottery pick, and the Dallas pick and the second rounder both have little value...so that trade heavily hinges on that Toronto pick, which I figured to be near the bottom of the lottery, and that now appears to be the case. Presti is a really good GM, so much that most OKC fans now blindly rubber-stamp every move he makes, but I find it hard to believe he couldn't find a deal that would guarantee him at least one proven young player (i.e. a Klay Thompson type guy still on a rookie deal).

Harden's trade value was incredibly high, given that his Bird rights meant the right to match any offer sheet if he hit restricted free agency. This wasn't like LA and Brooklyn bidding against each other for Dwight Howard, with every other team afraid to get involved due to the risk of Howard bolting after a year.

 

[stoops4pres]

I have long thought that the gap between Westbrook and Harden was nowhere near as wide as most people believed, but I gave Westbrook the edge--especially long term--because his athleticism sticks out so much. However, as these guys are becoming less about potential as they inch closer to being finished products, I'm getting serious doubts about Westbrook living up to his potential as a two-way player, which is supposed to be the difference between he and Harden in the long run.

I hated the Harden trade when it happened. I understand the economic realities that spurred it, but I was incredibly high on him, especially compared to other OKC fans, most of whom believed he was largely the product of playing with Durant and Westbrook. Martin is a one-year rental, Lamb is a low lottery pick, and the Dallas pick and the second rounder both have little value...so that trade heavily hinges on that Toronto pick, which I figured to be near the bottom of the lottery, and that now appears to be the case. Presti is a really good GM, so much that most OKC fans now blindly rubber-stamp every move he makes, but I find it hard to believe he couldn't find a deal that would guarantee him at least one proven young player (i.e. a Klay Thompson type guy still on a rookie deal).

Harden's trade value was incredibly high, given that his Bird rights meant the right to match any offer sheet if he hit restricted free agency. This wasn't like LA and Brooklyn bidding against each other for Dwight Howard, with every other team afraid to get involved due to the risk of Howard bolting after a year.

I'm with you. Perhaps OKC fans should hope that Westbrook follows LeBron's path (from a defensive standpoint): Finally realize after several seasons that the truly great players put forth maximum effort on both ends of the floor. I'm not suggesting Westbrook can be as dominant of a defender as LeBron currently is, but he certainly has the tools to be an elite one. It's just whether or not he wants to put it together.