Kendal Harris names top 5

[CoachTalk]

Wow, never seen you post like that before. I always respect your contributions, because you know hoops, the program, and what is going on real time. No need to go there, simply because the guy posted of a different opinion.

If some of the posters who are so ready to defend LK would stop and read what some of the other posters are saying, it isn't that bizarre or crazy.

The star argument has been made on every Sooner football board known to man. Of course there will be 5 star busts, and 2 star superstars, but overall most of those earned their stars with their talent/performance. It still comes down to player development/coaching, but starting with talented guys who WANT to learn and grow is desirable.....

I chuckle each time I see the threads bashing anyone recruiting 5 star talent. Everyone uses Capel as an example, referencing Tiny, WW, TMG, etc. I promise you I was here reading it daily, some of the same posters using that argument were falling all over themselves when we landed those big time recruits. All of a sudden we don't need to ever worry about star ratings and talent, because LK will develop " his type of guys".....?????

Of course KS was a master at winning with less talented guys, but let's stop acting like he took us to the Final 4 and regularly to the tourney with NAIA talent. KS along with LK have coached numerous talented players who fit their style. There is nothing wrong with Sooner fans wanting to see some Stevie Clarks and other talented guys in Norman. It doesn't mean we can't win without them, but landing some big time recruits is always refreshing, IMO......

My apologies. Thank you, Guess im just frustrated because I keep hearing we dont have any talent, when are we going to sign top talent. There is talent here, it just takes time.
There are some sure fire NBA 1st rounders, pro talent etc. We will never get that here very often. We have to get those guys that we have on campus that are going to bust their tails because they feel like they have something to prove.

When Capel left, we were in BAD shape, because as everyone knows we missed on those top20 kids. It takes time to build a program that wasnt very good at the time.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Exaggerate much? All I said is that it doesn't take a roster full of 5 star recruits, or even a roster full of top 100 kids. We need 3-4 top 100 kids on the roster, and some solid players around them. Kelvin won with that formula for a lot of years.

Hahahaha.... Every time I post, I'm not thinking about, responding to, or even disagreeing with you. My response had nothing to do with any one post you have made, but an overall attitude that has been present for 2 yrs. Had nothing to do with you. You certainly are not the only poster who loved KS, myself included. Go fight with Gary or something, because I'm not going to punch back.

Don't have the time/energy.......... I actually agree with you about KS. My point was, some here would act like they were saying NO, NO, NO, when JC signed the Mickey D's guys, when in fact most were very happy, again myself included......

My other point was KS had talented guys, and he made the most of what they could give him. Some posters(I promise not talking about you WT) have acted like KS won with NAIA talent. Not even referencing something someone said in this thread, but an overall attitude that I have seen in the recent past.......

 

[jmizzy4ou]

My apologies. Thank you, Guess im just frustrated because I keep hearing we dont have any talent, when are we going to sign top talent. There is talent here, it just takes time.
There are some sure fire NBA 1st rounders, pro talent etc. We will never get that here very often. We have to get those guys that we have on campus that are going to bust their tails because they feel like they have something to prove.

When Capel left, we were in BAD shape, because as everyone knows we missed on those top20 kids. It takes time to build a program that wasnt very good at the time.

:clap:clap:clap

I agree with what you said. We gotta give LK a chance to turn this thing around. He LIKE KS, has proven he likes a certain type of player, and he usually stocks his teams with those types. He has been able to make a career out of getting guys to play his way, and he has been successful doing it that way. I'm with you when you say we must give him the time a coach needs to lay a new foundation.....

Thanks for the reply, and please keep sharing your insight with us.

 

[bgrch1350]

You think they go to rivals and just offer the top 10? yeah those guys are getting the cant miss players.

Ok which program up there are we "better" than recently? Kentucky, Baylor, Indiana, Xavier, Mich ST, L'Ville, M'Quette, Florida, KU, N.C St, UNC, Oh St, Cincy, Wisc, and S'Cuse.

why should we get players over them? We just signed 2 top 100 guys, since you are a rankings guy.

UNLV is/was ranked in the top 10-15 last year. those were LK players, I think we'll be just fine.

Rivals is the only site that has Hield in the top 100. He's on the outside of 100 on ESPN's site...and he's not even top 150 on Scouts. Hornbeak didn't crack a single top 100 list. So too hang my hat on 1 guy that barely cracked one sites top 100 list isn't going to cut it...Not when our competition are bringing in multiple, unanimous, top 100 kids.

I don't care about UNLV and what they did last year. Kruger didn't coach that team. He coached the team that went 15-16(5-13 in conference). UNLV and their new coaching staff also brought in a top 10 player to go along with 2 other players that are almost unanimous top 100 players..and they brought in Khem Birch who was also a top 25 recruit.

One thing you guys better realize is that Lon Kruger might be a good/great coach...but he's no longer in the MWC, he's in the Big 12. The Big 12 has a bunch of good/great coaches. Bob Huggins, Rick Barnes, and Bill Self are great as well. BCG, Bruce Weber and Scott Drew have proven they are good. If you guys truly think that Kruger is going to out coach all of these big 12 coaches with no matter what players we have...then you're delusional.

 

[bgrch1350]

When Capel left, we were in BAD shape, because as everyone knows we missed on those top20 kids. It takes time to build a program that wasnt very good at the time.

We weren't in BAD shape b/c we missed out on top 20 kids...we were in BAD shape b/c Willie Warren screwed himself out of money and this team and decided that he was ready for the NBA.
TMG put us in a bad position b/c he didn't understand the value of a college degree...which I'm sure he will realize somewhere down the line...but it still doesn't help us out.
And finally, Tiny Gallon taking money put us in BAD shape.

I don't care what players we missed out on...If we keep 2...hell even one of those 3, we have a way better team. Especially with the progress that Cade Davis, Pledger, and Fitzgerald made the following year.

PG - TMG (SO)
W - Warren (JR)
W - Davis (SR)
P - Fitzgerald (SO)
P - Gallon (SO)
1 - Pledger (SO)
2 - Clark (FR)

Not being able to keep any of those 3 killed this program. Because we had to replace them with Carl Blair, Calvin Newell, and Tyler Neal.

 

[garyeb2]

Rivals is the only site that has Hield in the top 100. He's on the outside of 100 on ESPN's site...and he's not even top 150 on Scouts. Hornbeak didn't crack a single top 100 list. So too hang my hat on 1 guy that barely cracked one sites top 100 list isn't going to cut it...Not when our competition are bringing in multiple, unanimous, top 100 kids.

I don't care about UNLV and what they did last year. Kruger didn't coach that team. He coached the team that went 15-16(5-13 in conference). UNLV and their new coaching staff also brought in a top 10 player to go along with 2 other players that are almost unanimous top 100 players..and they brought in Khem Birch who was also a top 25 recruit.

One thing you guys better realize is that Lon Kruger might be a good/great coach...but he's no longer in the MWC, he's in the Big 12. The Big 12 has a bunch of good/great coaches. Bob Huggins, Rick Barnes, and Bill Self are great as well. BCG, Bruce Weber and Scott Drew have proven they are good. If you guys truly think that Kruger is going to out coach all of these big 12 coaches with no matter what players we have...then you're delusional.

I think you have jumped the rail again. Yes, there are alot of good coaches in the Big 12. Lon is one of them. He is not going to get out coached on game day.

What is delusional is attatching some definative meaning to those recruit rankings. Those ranking are for the benifit of the fans. There are a handful of elite recruits every year. Everyone knows who they are and everyone wants them. For the most part, they wind up with one of the elite programs or with the cheaters. OU has no shot whatsoever with most of them. And Lon won't get them.

After the elites there is a bigger group that is "good enough" and then there is the rest of them. To think that the group of good enoughs can be ranked in order as their potential to contribute in college is beyond human capabilities. To say that 23 is better than 33 or 87 is better than 117 just can not be done.

To say that OU is falling behind because they signed an unranked Cousins and someone else signed #65 is nothing more than complaining for no good reason. A recruits worth isn't decided until the games have been played.

Capel was a lousy recruiter because he brought in a bunch of guys that he couldn't win games with. And that is it. Nothing else. The expert recruits the guys he can get that are better than those ranked higher. Then he wins with them.

Kruger has done that over and over. So did Kelvin. They didn't win with inferior talent. They just find the talent no one else can see. Rivals, ESPN, and the others don't do that. They just take a superficial overveiw and hang a number on it.

I'll stick with the experts. Not the writers and opion guys.

 

[CoachTalk]

We weren't in BAD shape b/c we missed out on top 20 kids...we were in BAD shape b/c Willie Warren screwed himself out of money and this team and decided that he was ready for the NBA.
TMG put us in a bad position b/c he didn't understand the value of a college degree...which I'm sure he will realize somewhere down the line...but it still doesn't help us out.
And finally, Tiny Gallon taking money put us in BAD shape.

I don't care what players we missed out on...If we keep 2...hell even one of those 3, we have a way better team. Especially with the progress that Cade Davis, Pledger, and Fitzgerald made the following year.

PG - TMG (SO)
W - Warren (JR)
W - Davis (SR)
P - Fitzgerald (SO)
P - Gallon (SO)
1 - Pledger (SO)
2 - Clark (FR)

Not being able to keep any of those 3 killed this program. Because we had to replace them with Carl Blair, Calvin Newell, and Tyler Neal.

Agree if we keep 2 of those an they change their attitude and life style, COMPLETELY different ball game. All that talent wasted...!

 

[CoachTalk]

Rivals is the only site that has Hield in the top 100. He's on the outside of 100 on ESPN's site...and he's not even top 150 on Scouts. Hornbeak didn't crack a single top 100 list. So too hang my hat on 1 guy that barely cracked one sites top 100 list isn't going to cut it...Not when our competition are bringing in multiple, unanimous, top 100 kids.

I don't care about UNLV and what they did last year. Kruger didn't coach that team. He coached the team that went 15-16(5-13 in conference). UNLV and their new coaching staff also brought in a top 10 player to go along with 2 other players that are almost unanimous top 100 players..and they brought in Khem Birch who was also a top 25 recruit.

One thing you guys better realize is that Lon Kruger might be a good/great coach...but he's no longer in the MWC, he's in the Big 12. The Big 12 has a bunch of good/great coaches. Bob Huggins, Rick Barnes, and Bill Self are great as well. BCG, Bruce Weber and Scott Drew have proven they are good. If you guys truly think that Kruger is going to out coach all of these big 12 coaches with no matter what players we have...then you're delusional.

Boksooner said it best. Read above. We have top 100-125 players. I'll take LK over bcg, weber, drew any day and every day! Over Barnes as well and I'm not much of a Huggins fan!
I do like me some bill self! Dude can coach!

 

[StatGeek]

I think you have jumped the rail again. Yes, there are alot of good coaches in the Big 12. Lon is one of them. He is not going to get out coached on game day.

What is delusional is attatching some definative meaning to those recruit rankings. Those ranking are for the benifit of the fans. There are a handful of elite recruits every year. Everyone knows who they are and everyone wants them. For the most part, they wind up with one of the elite programs or with the cheaters. OU has no shot whatsoever with most of them. And Lon won't get them.

After the elites there is a bigger group that is "good enough" and then there is the rest of them. To think that the group of good enoughs can be ranked in order as their potential to contribute in college is beyond human capabilities. To say that 23 is better than 33 or 87 is better than 117 just can not be done.

To say that OU is falling behind because they signed an unranked Cousins and someone else signed #65 is nothing more than complaining for no good reason. A recruits worth isn't decided until the games have been played.

Capel was a lousy recruiter because he brought in a bunch of guys that he couldn't win games with. And that is it. Nothing else. The expert recruits the guys he can get that are better than those ranked higher. Then he wins with them.

Kruger has done that over and over. So did Kelvin. They didn't win with inferior talent. They just find the talent no one else can see. Rivals, ESPN, and the others don't do that. They just take a superficial overveiw and hang a number on it.

I'll stick with the experts. Not the writers and opion guys.

I agree 10,000%
:clap:clap:clap

 

[OULegacy]

There is something you guys are forgetting... The goal is to win a championship and have a solid program, end of the line top 100 and players that are late bloomers don't really cut it. You guys are saying we don't need bug recruits because your aiming for NIT tournament team every year.....

Lon when he signed here took the responsibility to go get us a championship and bringing in lesser talent won't get it done

 

[Mr.B!!!]

There is something you guys are forgetting... The goal is to win a championship and have a solid program, end of the line top 100 and players that are late bloomers don't really cut it. You guys are saying we don't need bug recruits because your aiming for NIT tournament team every year.....

Lon when he signed here took the responsibility to go get us a championship and bringing in lesser talent won't get it done

You are ignoring the reality of timing and issues from both Kelvin when he went "big" with Reynolds and James and the lingering Gallon nonsense from the Capel era. Two probation issues under last two guys. You want to cheat to get those guys you want, ain't going to happen. I've given you a perfect example how to recruit a team when you are at a disadvantage to "cheat" or play the "AAU" game. CLK has one an excellent job to this point. IMHO.

 

[garyeb2]

There is something you guys are forgetting... The goal is to win a championship and have a solid program, end of the line top 100 and players that are late bloomers don't really cut it. You guys are saying we don't need bug recruits because your aiming for NIT tournament team every year.....

Lon when he signed here took the responsibility to go get us a championship and bringing in lesser talent won't get it done

That is my point. You do not know that he is bringing in lesser talent. He may be. But, it is just as likely that he has brought in the very best talent he could given the situation that the program currently finds itself.

 

[skyvue]

There is something you guys are forgetting... The goal is to win a championship and have a solid program, end of the line top 100 and players that are late bloomers don't really cut it. You guys are saying we don't need bug recruits because your aiming for NIT tournament team every year.....

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Did Kelvin Sampson go to the NIT every year? No, he went to the NCAA virtually every year, and how many ESPN-anointed "superstars" did he ever sign?

No OU fan would be satisfied with the NIT every year. Not one. That's the silliest straw man argument I've seen on this board in a long, long time.

Perhaps the greatest damage Capel did to our program was to make a certain faction of our fans recruiting-rankings-conscious. He signed a few highly ranked ones and pursued others, and where did it get us?

I'll take a hard-working, responsible, dedicated player ranked 70th -- or 110th -- over the likes of TMG and Tiny every time.

Also, those who underrate our current crop of new players are arguably not giving a fair shake to Cousins. He may not have been highly thought of when those all-important rankings were put together, but he was by the time we signed him.

 

[WaymanFan]

I believe a lot of good points have been made by both sides of the argument. Based on past history, Lon Kruger has proven to be a better "talent evaluator" than recruiter (in regards to "rankings"). I liken him to be a better coaching version of former BC coach Al Skinner. Coach Skinner used to remind his detractors that his BC teams were always very competitive despite the fact they usually finished near the bottom in recruiting "rankings." I have no doubt that as long as Coach Kruger is at OU, we'll be highly competitive and make the NCAA Tounament in most years.

With that said, Coach Kruger's history only includes 3 trips to the Sweet 16 or beyond. That means there is some room for improvement. He has probably never had a recruiting "budget" that he has at OU, so at some point he really should be able to land more highly rated recruits than he has at past stops. He's not getting paid $2-3 million annually to just get us back to the NCAA Tournament...but all should understand that has to be the first step.

 

[Sam]

There is something you guys are forgetting... The goal is to win a championship and have a solid program, end of the line top 100 and players that are late bloomers don't really cut it. You guys are saying we don't need bug recruits because your aiming for NIT tournament team every year.....

Lon when he signed here took the responsibility to go get us a championship and bringing in lesser talent won't get it done

Your obsession with the need of “top 100” talent to be a good team is becoming odd and on the verge of trolling behavior .

Here are the breakdown of the Rivals' recruiting rankings of two fellow Big 12 teams from the past season.

Team A
Class of 2010
PG, #61, 4 Star
SG juco, No Stars
C, Juco, 4 Star

Class of 2009
PG, #136, 3 star

Class of 2008
SG, #150, 3 star
SF, #111, 3 star
C, 3 star


Team B
Class of 2011
C, #148, 3 star
PF, #147, 3 star
PG, 3 star

Class of 2010
PG 3 star
SF, #131, 3 star

Class of 2009
SG #84, 4 star
C, 3 star
PG, 3 star

Class of 2007
PF, 3 star

By your logic these teams should've been NIT bound, correct?

Team A is Missouri, a team that was ranked top 10 much of the year and won the Big 12 tournament.

Team B is Kansas St, they earned an eight seed in the tournament.

Both programs have been consistently to NCAA tournament in recent years (Mizzou 4 straight, KSU 3 straight).

I will agree that to win a national title, be a consistent in the final weekend of March, etc that top tier talent is needed. But its laughable to assume that OU can't compete any of other way.

For kicks and giggles, I've broken down OU's roster for this upcoming season based on their rivals' recruiting rankings.

OU
Class of 2012
D.J.Bennett, juco 3 star
Isaiah Cousins, 3 star
Buddy Hield, #86, 4 star
Jelon Hornbeak, #102, 4 star

Class of 2011
Casey Arent, juco 3 star
Sam Grooms, juco, 3 star

Class of 2010
Cameron Clark, #34, 4 star
Tyler Neal, No Stars

Class of 2009
Andrew Fitzgerald, #70, 4 star
Steven Pledger, #121, 3 star
Amath M'Baye No Stars

Class of 2008
Romero Osby, #57, 4 star

 

[OUHoops]

FWIW, Harris apparently committed to USC today.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

So with just a guess on starters, and I know there is a long time between now and November, but:

C: Fitz**** (C)
PF: Osby**** (C)
SF: Clark**** (C)
SG: Pledger*** (C)
PG: Grooms***(K)

Bench:

C: Bennett***(K)
PF: M'Baye(K)+
W: Hornbeak****(K)
W: Heild****(K)
PG: Cousins***(K)

Obviously this isn't a "perfect" match of substitution patterns or anything, and based on everything I've seen and heard I'd say that M'Baye is comparable to Osby and Clark, so I'd say in our top 10 players, recruiting has been fairly the same. Evaluation is what I hope turns the tide, and 30 years of successful coaching should do that.

 

[soonerfud]

I'll be really surprised if Neal isn't somewhere in that top 10. If he's not tho, it might be a good sign that we are more talented than I think!

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I'll be really surprised if Neal isn't somewhere in that top 10. If he's not tho, it might be a good sign that we are more talented than I think!

I get ripped every time I say it, but I'd personally like to see Neal and Arent both redshirt this season and see if they can get better. Arent came to OU requesting to be redshirted but took one for the team. I think Neal could really use a year to develop, he is just young.

BTW, I totally disagree with the OP, but kudos, you got a three page thread going in August.

 

[CoachTalk]

So with just a guess on starters, and I know there is a long time between now and November, but:

C: Fitz**** (C)
PF: Osby**** (C)
SF: Clark**** (C)
SG: Pledger*** (C)
PG: Grooms***(K)

Bench:

C: Bennett***(K)
PF: M'Baye(K)+
W: Hornbeak****(K)
W: Heild****(K)
PG: Cousins***(K)

Obviously this isn't a "perfect" match of substitution patterns or anything, and based on everything I've seen and heard I'd say that M'Baye is comparable to Osby and Clark, so I'd say in our top 10 players, recruiting has been fairly the same. Evaluation is what I hope turns the tide, and 30 years of successful coaching should do that.

M'Baye will start from Day 1 and be our best player by Christmas, giving him some time to get back in the flow of the game!