Kenneth Faried/Will Barton to Cleveland for Kevin Love?
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thebigabd
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They have log jams at a few positions, and seem to be building without Faried... Gary Harris and Jamal Murray will be the shooting guards, Galo and Wilson Chandler the SF's...
The idea would be they could go:
PG: Manny Mudiay/Jamal Murray
SG: Gary Harris/Malik Beasley
SF: Danilo Gallinari/Wilson Chandler
PF: Kevin Love/Darrell Arthur
C: Nikola Jokic/Jusuf Nurkic
If all they have to give up is Barton and Faried to get that, it would be a steal for them.
Love and Jokic give them one of the best passing and most skilled front-lines in the NBA, if Love returns to form. Great rebounding potential with that team as well.
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What form would that be? Three years ago that trade is a no-brainer, today I'm not sure if Love is worth it. I do get the log jam factor, I just don't think you can count on Love. I think it'd be an okay trade on the Cleveland side because they can't maximize what Love brings to the table with two usage guys like Kyrie and Bron. Faried would be a great glue guy and I like Barton.
thebigabd
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I like Barton too... 6'6'', great athlete, 35% 3pt shooter, averaged 6 rebounds per game as well. He's a nice piece to have.
The Cavs would get some athletic upgrades with Faried and Barton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvgL9I-1e8
Smash Williams
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That's a horrible return for Cleveland. This severely overvalues Faried and undervalues Love.
The problem with Love in Cleveland is that they can't come anywhere close to maximizing his offensive utility with two ball-dominant perimeter stars on the roster. In general, Love's offensive value outweighs his defensive liability, but his lower usage in Cleveland's offense, coupled with the defensive versatility necessary to survive against a team like Golden State, creates the worst possible situation for Love. On nearly any other team, Love is far more valuable. He's also under contract for at least three more years (plus a player option on a fourth year) on a deal signed before this summer's cap spike, so he still has a lot of trade value.
If the Cavs trade Love, it's going to be for players who better complement their roster--namely, players who defend and/or space the floor. Faried does neither. He's an undersized 4 who doesn't defend and can't shoot, which doesn't make him that valuable to any team. He's a solid bench player (or at least he should be coming off the bench) on an okay contract, but nothing more.
Barton is an intriguing piece. He's a relatively young player who found his outside shot last season, and he's on a bargain salary for the next two years...but his 34.5% 3-point shooting (which isn't a very good percentage anyhow) was abnormally high, compared to the rest of his career. He's a 3-and-D wing whose mediocre 3-point shooting may have been an aberration.
Barton and Faried is nowhere near enough for Love. I'm guessing Cleveland would want one of the two young bigs (Jokic or Nurkic), Wilson Chandler, and one of the young wings (Harris or Barton)...and that's probably not enough.
Boston makes a lot more sense as a trade partner. Jae Crowder alone trumps Faried/Barton. Even a package centered around Amir Johnson and Avery Bradley is a better return and fit for Cleveland.
The problem with Love in Cleveland is that they can't come anywhere close to maximizing his offensive utility with two ball-dominant perimeter stars on the roster. In general, Love's offensive value outweighs his defensive liability, but his lower usage in Cleveland's offense, coupled with the defensive versatility necessary to survive against a team like Golden State, creates the worst possible situation for Love. On nearly any other team, Love is far more valuable. He's also under contract for at least three more years (plus a player option on a fourth year) on a deal signed before this summer's cap spike, so he still has a lot of trade value.
If the Cavs trade Love, it's going to be for players who better complement their roster--namely, players who defend and/or space the floor. Faried does neither. He's an undersized 4 who doesn't defend and can't shoot, which doesn't make him that valuable to any team. He's a solid bench player (or at least he should be coming off the bench) on an okay contract, but nothing more.
Barton is an intriguing piece. He's a relatively young player who found his outside shot last season, and he's on a bargain salary for the next two years...but his 34.5% 3-point shooting (which isn't a very good percentage anyhow) was abnormally high, compared to the rest of his career. He's a 3-and-D wing whose mediocre 3-point shooting may have been an aberration.
Barton and Faried is nowhere near enough for Love. I'm guessing Cleveland would want one of the two young bigs (Jokic or Nurkic), Wilson Chandler, and one of the young wings (Harris or Barton)...and that's probably not enough.
Boston makes a lot more sense as a trade partner. Jae Crowder alone trumps Faried/Barton. Even a package centered around Amir Johnson and Avery Bradley is a better return and fit for Cleveland.
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BCSooners
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Exactly. Faried is a shorter, worse version of Thompson. If they played together that would clog things up for James & Irving.
The issue was whether a specific trade should be made; not what other trades would be better. Everyone acknowledges that Love doesn't fit what Cleveland is doing [at least in the playoffs]. And Cleveland isn't running its offense off spacing, its running it off LeBron being better than everyone else and betting [correctly] that it will work with another usage guy in Irving if they play tough defense and gobble up boards. I think you undervalue Faried in that scenario. EDIT: Just to be clear, for me it is the Barton part of the trade scenario that is the most interesting.
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Smash Williams
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A specific trade shouldn't be made if much better trades can be had. Even if you thought you car was worth less than $20k, you still wouldn't sell it to someone for $20k if a bunch of other people were willing to pay $50k for it.
This is absurd. Every offense is highly dependent upon spacing. Offenses without good to great spacing eventually get exploited in the playoffs (see: Memphis).
As great as LeBron is, his performance is dependent upon his team and the opposition. You can't stick Irving and three non-spacing scrubs around LeBron and expect him to dominate a great defense. He needs space to operate. His teams have always been at their best when he's been surrounded by shooters that either dissuade opposing defenses from doubling LeBron or punish those defenses when they do bring help. LeBron post-ups and drives to the basket aren't effective if the defense doesn't have to worry about leaving other guys open.
Here's Cleveland's seven-man rotation from the last three games of the Finals:
Thompson
Love
LeBron
Smith
Irving
Jefferson
Shumpert
If the Cavs' strategy was simply predicated upon tough defense and rebounding, Mozgov wouldn't have been collecting DNPs while Richard Jefferson essentially operated as the third big in Cleveland's rotation. (If you would rather call LeBron the 4 in those lineups, it doesn't matter. The point is that Cleveland wasn't putting multiple non-shooters on the floor with LeBron.)
Jefferson was a better fit because he spaces the floor, he's better at switching onto smaller players, and Thompson is a one-man wrecking crew on the offensive glass. When you have LeBron and Thompson, you're going to get a ton of rebounds, thus making plus rebounding from other positions less valuable.
Faried doesn't play anything close to tough defense, and he's not a better rebounder than Love.
Barton is a promising role player, but is he that much better than Shumpert, who played less than 20 MPG in the Finals? They're almost the same age. Shumpert--a shaky shooter himself--has more of a track record as a 3-pointer shooter than Barton. Shumpert is much bulkier, so he's less susceptible to getting bullied by bigger wings (or by bigs on switches). Whatever advantage Barton has as a ball handler or offensive initiator is nullified by the presence of LeBron and Kyrie.
I like Barton, but I'm not cashing in a trade chip like Kevin Love for Barton and increasingly obsolete energy player.
In a universe in which Will Barton is the absolute best player that the Cavs can get for Kevin Love, Cleveland would be better off standing pat.
How can you say that Love is underutilized and justify his salary when you are way into the tax? And any player would be better with good shooting around them, but Cleveland certainly didn't have that this season. Maybe you saw something different than I did, but that was small ball getting beat up and LeBron and Kyrie winning individual matchups. The more I look at the trade the more I like it, Cleveland does not need Kevin Love to make it to the NBA finals and he has no value against the likely opponent in GSW. But it won't happen, LeBron is essentially running that franchise and he won't break up the band.
Smash Williams
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The Cavs only have $82 mil in salary committed, with LeBron and J.R. Smith unsigned. Assuming LeBron signs a 1+1 via Non-Bird Exception, he'll make $27.6 mil next season. That would put the Cavs at $110 mil plus whatever Smith gets. With the luxury tax threshold at $113.3 mil, the Cavs won't be that deep into the tax.
Besides, you don't cut corners and make trash trades to save money if you want to keep LeBron happy. They can let Mozgov and Dellavedova walk because they weren't essential rotation players deep in the playoffs. In a world in which Mozgov gets 4 years, $64 mil after DNPing half the playoffs, Love at $93.5 mil over the next four years (slightly less than Harrison Barnes' contract) is a great contract.
The Cavs were 3rd in the league in 3-point attempts (trailing only the Warriors and Rockets), 2nd in 3-point makes, and 7th in 3-point %. The Cavs made 36.2% of their threes while shooting them at an extremely high volume, and in the playoffs they attempted 30 threes per game and hit them at a 40.6% clip. If that's not "good shooting" to you, how would you describe Will Barton, who shot 34.5% from 3 last season and 30.3% for his career?
Small ball got beat up with small ball. Look again at that Cleveland rotation. Richard Jefferson was the third big.
Cleveland's best and second-most used lineup in the Finals (+36 in 66 minutes) was...
Irving
Smith
LeBron
Jefferson
Thompson
Cleveland didn't play Jefferson over Mozgov because they thought Jefferson was better at rebounding and beating up small lineups. That makes zero sense. You're taking a faulty narrative from the 2015 Finals and applying it to 2016.
Irving and LeBron wouldn't have an opportunity to win those individual matchups if the Warriors had been able to send more help at them. Instead, the Cavs spread the floor with shooters that Golden State couldn't abandon with impunity, thus leaving weaker defenders on islands with Irving and LeBron.
Love was less valuable against Golden State, but it's ridiculous to say he had no value against them. He spaces the floor (he didn't shoot well in the series, but the Warriors had to respect his shot because of his track record), and he's skilled enough in the post to make smaller wing players pay the price on switches, which is central to Golden State's defense.
There are worse players that would nonetheless be more valuable to the Cavs in that particular match-up, but a Barton and Faried for Love deal is indefensible.
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thebigabd
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These rumors about some sort of Faried/Love trade keep swirling around the interwebs... could be nothing, but this is being rumored for awhile now.
It's a win for Denver if they get Love for Barton/Faried, but I suspect another player will need to be involved. Possibly Nurkic or Joffrey Lauvergne get's it done.
Faried gives them energy, athletic ability, and fits in well when they are trying to get out and run... Problem is he can't space the floor AT ALL. You have to defend Love so he can just go sit in a wing and open up the lane.
Barton just gives them another good guard and brings super athletic ability, which isnt a bad thing, and I think he is better than Imam Shumpert, but hard to tell.
It's a win for Denver if they get Love for Barton/Faried, but I suspect another player will need to be involved. Possibly Nurkic or Joffrey Lauvergne get's it done.
Faried gives them energy, athletic ability, and fits in well when they are trying to get out and run... Problem is he can't space the floor AT ALL. You have to defend Love so he can just go sit in a wing and open up the lane.
Barton just gives them another good guard and brings super athletic ability, which isnt a bad thing, and I think he is better than Imam Shumpert, but hard to tell.
Smash Williams
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Barton being better than Shumpert is a completely legitimate argument, but I think some of what makes Barton a better player wouldn't be put of much use in Cleveland. Barton is probably better than Shumpert, but I don't think that he would be that much better at playing the role Shumpert does in Cleveland.
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