Player Development Discussion

[cowboysooner]

A number of threads have touched on this subject through the years with regard to all of our coaches and of course with regard to Lon's tenure as well. Having gotten to my ripe old age, and having raised a son that dedicated his entire youth to a particular sport and ultimately played at the collegiate level for four years, I thought I would just give you my thoughts on this issue.

First, regardless of the sport, the amount of dedication and commitment that a kid has to give to a sport for the entirety of his youth to be good enough to play at a high or collegiate level is immense and all consuming. Very simply this "fire" of a life burns them out at some point. For some kids, it is when they hit puberty and discover the opposite sex. For some, it is when they are old enough to get their drivers license and get a car (and also discover the wonders of interpersonal relationships). For others the drive and perseverance drives them all the way to college.

Basketball, perhaps more than most sports, is a sport where height and athletic ability (measurable) creates the most opportunity. So, sometimes a kid, while playing all the time, doesn't really have to completely commit to advance, e.g. make the game the complete focus of his life 24/7/365. So, the commitment level in college to improve is a real eye opener and change for them. Often these kids just burn out their freshman year. This accounts for the so called sophomore slump. Kids have been at home all their lives and to a certain degree under the eye and control of parents, then they get to college and discovery beer, dope and girls, and all of a sudden, they decide that school and sport is not everything in life.

Some sports are different. With some rare exceptions, with the skill driven sports, parents have already had to deal with their kids "burn out" long before college.

With regard to Lon and the previous coaches as well, there are very distinct NCAA regulations that control how much time a coach can spend with a kid, and it is only a small fraction of the time a kid would have to spend to really change his skill and ability from his freshman year to his senior year. Kids are driven or they aren't. Some are intent on becoming the best, and some just go to and perhaps work hard a practices, that is just become whatever that will make them. This is why recruiting is just about everything. If everyone of the kids you sign is elite, they don't have as far to go to be successful.

Every kid signed by Alabama in football is a high 4 or 5 star kid, and most do not pan out. This doesn't make Saban a bad developer of talent. I think Lon does a decent job of development and certainly gives the kids the freedom to be all they can be. He tends to recruit athletes that can, if they have the drive, become championship players. He hasn't tended to recruit the hyper skilled but less athletic kids, or the solid bigger but shorter bids that are more skilled. In short and like me at the horse track, he bets on the best long shots so that if he wins he can win something. The other kinds of kids can win you games but have a very distinctive ceiling.

So how has lon done, well I think pretty good but with a mixed bag. Had a number of kids dramatically improve and many that haven't.

I guess my point with all of this is that it is complicated, and while the captain of the ship should bear and accept responsibility for the end result, we are a university that is not going to bring in all high profile kids and so we are going to have kids that don't pan out regardless of what lon does, he does have to reach and project some. All in all, I am satisfied with the job Lon has done and look forward to next year.

 

[sheepdogs1]

Alabama signs 3 star players. The running back out of Tulsa, Josh Jacobs, was a 3 star.

https://www.al.com/alabamafootball/2017/01/overlooked_alabama_football_recruits.html

 

[daqman]

The highly skilled elite athletes go to the bluebloods. Lon has to gamble on everyone else. But overall I think he's done a poor job of player development. Outside of Buddy and arguably Cousins, I'm not sure anyone has gotten substantially better. Maybe Doolittle.
And of course the list is long of players who left after a year or two.

 

[steverocks35]

My daughter was an elite fastpitch softball player, and she was a pitcher. I cannot begin to tell you how many hours she put in. First there's regular practice for her school team, then practice for her traveling summer team, then pitching lessons and pitching practice on her own time. She was gifted athletically and she still had to put in untold hours to become a player that could pitch on the Division II level. She played at Connors State then NSU. I can tell you that she hated playing college ball too, absolutely hated it. So there is a lot of truth in the OP's point.

 

[WTSooner]

The highly skilled elite athletes go to the bluebloods. Lon has to gamble on everyone else. But overall I think he's done a poor job of player development. Outside of Buddy and arguably Cousins, I'm not sure anyone has gotten substantially better. Maybe Doolittle.
And of course the list is long of players who left after a year or two.

I have two big issues (in my mind now at least) with recruiting:

1. Taking chances on too many guys that are huge projects, and honestly, just aren't the kind of players OU should be recruiting. This can be seen by where some of these folks have transferred to.

2. Guards win basketball games. When Lon had guards like Hield/Woodard/Cousins, we won at a higher level. TY was obviously a very skilled guard, but he was a unique situation. But other than that, our guard play really hasn't been good enough. Out of guards that played most of the minutes at the 1/2 spots last year (Harmon, Williams, JB), none of them really did enough scoring-wise. We have to start getting better production from the guards we rely on. Not all of them have to score 15 a game, but we can't have 3 guards playing nearly all of the minutes at the 1/2 spots, and producing how they did. We won't get production from the 3/4/5 spots most years like we did this year, and even with that production Ken Pom had our offense rated 58th in the country. That's terrible. And most of that blame has to go to those three guards.

 

[CoachTalk]

The highly skilled elite athletes go to the bluebloods. Lon has to gamble on everyone else. But overall I think he's done a poor job of player development. Outside of Buddy and arguably Cousins, I'm not sure anyone has gotten substantially better. Maybe Doolittle.
And of course the list is long of players who left after a year or two.

Never saw this “thought” coming.

Cousins is ? Haha

Manek? McDonald’s AA athlete right?

Muni?

Lattin?

Woodard?

James made big strides

Trae young was developed I’d say a tad from 5 star to top 2 rookie. If it weren’t for Luca playing pro for 3 years already.

 

[skyvue]

I can tell you that she hated playing college ball too, absolutely hated it. So there is a lot of truth in the OP's point.

Had she just had her fill by the time she reached college, or was there something specific to the collegiate softball experience that she didn't like?

 

[steverocks35]

Had she just had her fill by the time she reached college, or was there something specific to the collegiate softball experience that she didn't like?

It was no fun at all to her on that level. It was just a job that she had to show up to every day.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

Never saw this “thought” coming.

Cousins is ? Haha

Manek? McDonald’s AA athlete right?

Muni?

Lattin?

Woodard?

James made big strides

Trae young was developed I’d say a tad from 5 star to top 2 rookie. If it weren’t for Luca playing pro for 3 years already.

You think Brady Manek is a "McDonald's AA athlete?" That's hilarious.

And Khadeem Lattin developed over his four years? There were probably 7,000 posts on this board complaining on how he never got any better after his sophomore year (especially on the offensive end). Literally every single stat but FT% was virtually the same over his final three seasons.

McNeace was basically the same player his last three years too, as his stats will bear out; only his junior year had a very, very slight uptick.

I get you're the ultimate sunshine pumper, and it's sacrilegious on your end to criticize Kruger in any way, shape, or form, but surely even you can't possibly say Brady Manek is an elite athlete and Khadeem Lattin or Jamuni McNeace got noticeably better over their last 2-3 years at OU without chuckling some.

You're spot-on about Woodward, and James probably too, and clearly the poster wasn't paying attention to Cousins, and Trae is Trae, but the other three are simply factually incorrect, and visually too.

I look forward to your "LOL, ok" type of response you always give when disagreeing with someone.

 

[CoachTalk]

Manek comment was sarcasm. He’s developed just fine. That was the point. All conf player from Harrah Oklahoma. He wasn’t and isn’t a great athlete. And look how good he’s become.

My point was these guys did develop.

Can you comprehend the OP.

If you only think stats equal development then you’re behind.

Plenty of guys have gotten better. Those 5/6 were about 10 seconds of thinking.

 

[mict085]

I think Lon is a good coach and I don’t think we have a development problem. I agree with the OPs post. I think most of our problems are recruiting. Lon is forced to reach way too much. We have too many guys that are either not talented enough or they aren’t fully committed to working as hard as they need to in order to get better and contribute at the level needed to compete in the big12 and nationally.

I think if we ever want to compete for conference titles or (gasp!) a national title, then we need better recruiters and for the university to fully support the program. Also, we need the booster support to recruit with Kansas and other blue bloods and that means playing the game to buy players just like they do. Otherwise, we will never be more than a bubble team or a tourney team. All we can ever hope for would be maybe a FF run every 20 years and maybe catching lightning in a bottle and winning the conference once every 30-40 years. We’ll NEVER win a national title unless major changes are made to the way we run the program.

 

[daqman]

I think Lon is a good coach and I don’t think we have a development problem. I agree with the OPs post. I think most of our problems are recruiting. Lon is forced to reach way too much. We have too many guys that are either not talented enough or they aren’t fully committed to working as hard as they need to in order to get better and contribute at the level needed to compete in the big12 and nationally.

I think if we ever want to compete for conference titles or (gasp!) a national title, then we need better recruiters and for the university to fully support the program. Also, we need the booster support to recruit with Kansas and other blue bloods and that means playing the game to buy players just like they do. Otherwise, we will never be more than a bubble team or a tourney team. All we can ever hope for would be maybe a FF run every 20 years and maybe catching lightning in a bottle and winning the conference once every 30-40 years. We’ll NEVER win a national title unless major changes are made to the way we run the program.

Disagree. To compete for conference (and even national) titles, we need good coaches who can evaluate and develop talent. Good recruiters who can keep the best talent in state.
If Beard/Tech, Drew/Baylor can do it, so can OU.

 

[SoonerinNC]

The obvious issue is should Lon go. I think he is a good above average coach but not a great coach. I prefer less one on one play and better shot selection than we sometimes have but hey the guy has a better than average record.

You can argue both sides of the player development issue. The position that only Buddy and few other players have improved is a little thin on facts.

Bieniemy was possibly a little better this season than last but not nearly as good as most of hoped he would become. Woodard and Muni were making good progress until their injury plagued senior seasons.

McGusty went from a promising frosh to a bench player and transfered. TY was stymied by K-State and began to make bad decisions. Kruger probably gave him too much freedom once the wheels started coming off. That year was a general mess. Far too many one on one players (TY, Doo, McGusty). Doo made good progress from his freshman year but was basically a one on one player most of his career. And a good one.

On the other side of the argument I agree James improved beginning with the middle of his soph year. Odomes went from a non-factor to an occasional contributer. Even Freeman improved before transfering.

I feel that Manek has improved every year. Hill and Harmon improved during the season. Williams not so much. Iwaukor a little and I still have hopes for him. Like many frosh he still has to master the flow of the game and improve his offensive contribution. Reeves came on very strong at the end of the season and mostly his discipline.

If Kruger were to stay at OU 20 more seasons I don't think he would recruit many 5* players. Men's college basketball is possibly the most corrupt recruiting scene in all of college sports. As bad at least as football. You only have to look at how many times the blue bloods like Kansas have been associated with questionable recruiting practices with nary a slap on the wrist to understand how bad it is. Kruger seems to be very clean in his recruiting.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

Manek comment was sarcasm. He’s developed just fine. That was the point. All conf player from Harrah Oklahoma. He wasn’t and isn’t a great athlete. And look how good he’s become.

My point was these guys did develop.

Can you comprehend the OP.

If you only think stats equal development then you’re behind.

Plenty of guys have gotten better. Those 5/6 were about 10 seconds of thinking.

OK, well played on Manek, the sarcasm didn't come across. I like it.

But I have to fight you on the other two; sure, I understand stats don't unequivocally equal development (thanks for trying to be as condescending as possible though, very classy)...but when EVERY stat is virtually the same from the second year to the fourth year, that is the very definition of lack of development. Furthermore, if they were developed, as you say, wouldn't the coach/staff try to find several more minutes for said player, instead of basically giving them both 20 and 15 per game, respectively? Especially when they were frontcourt players at a position of need?

So, again, instead of just brushing me aside as "you're behind," like you always do when someone disagrees with you or calls out the coach...could you please give me some examples where both players developed and were significantly better in the last two years with the program, than they were in their second year in the program?

 

[CoachTalk]

Disagree. To compete for conference (and even national) titles, we need good coaches who can evaluate and develop talent. Good recruiters who can keep the best talent in state.
If Beard/Tech, Drew/Baylor can do it, so can OU.

I’d take Phipps and Bijan over ada kid robinson.

5 star Bryce. We tried all we could. Kid been a self fan forever. Is what it is.

 

[daqman]

I’d take Phipps and Bijan over ada kid robinson.

5 star Bryce. We tried all we could. Kid been a self fan forever. Is what it is.

Never saw this "thought" coming.
Have you ever met a Kruger player you didn't like?
That's a rhetorical question.

 

[CoachTalk]

Never saw this "thought" coming.
Have you ever met a Kruger player you didn't like?
That's a rhetorical question.

Yeah a couple of the projects but I stated that will hopefully end with Crutchfield gone now.

 

[Soonerinkc]

My son was a baseball guy, ended up pitching at D1 Juco in Ks for 2 yrs. I can tell you as the OP said, SELF desire is #1. If the kid doesn't have it they don't.

My son wasn't on some big traveling team and his HS sucked...coach sucked (not saying this as a "bitter" dad...lol, my kid was the only Sr to get a 'ship) but he really sucked.

Son got what he got because of intangibles, 6'3, 200lbs pitcher with decent form.

BUT as with what steverocks said with his daughter, ball is a JOB in college...24/7. He only pitched a little and hurt his elbow and stopped after 2 yrs...(the internal desire thing) he had teammates that got hurt but LOVED playing and kept bouncing from school to school to play.

This comes to Kruger - every coach at this level has to get something out of their guys. Granted if ya are starting with top raw talent you're ahead of the game. Kruger has to struggle to get that...therefor he's got to "develop" more than Self does. It's on him to a point to get better talent. I think he gets what he can, knowing they'll either work on their own or won't. Buddy worked his ass off...on his own because he WANTED it.

I'd say kruger doesn't develop above a "c" grade...maybe a "b" on some guys but a lot of that is on the guys, but a coach has to see that in a kid.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[vbdad]

Cousins developed more than anyone else including Buddy. He was terrible his first year

 

[AdaSooner]

Player development (or the lack thereof in some cases) has been a source of frustration for me since our Final Four run. Recruiting has, too, but I have seen some improvements in that area lately.

I think Doo improved more than anyone on our roster in the last three years. He was remarkably effective for his size, even against the best bigs in the conference. I doubt if I’m alone in wishing he had redshirted the year he was not eligible the first semester.

I agree with those who think Manek has improved. He’s just inconsistent at times, and he gets down on himself too much. If OU is to have a good 20-21 season, Brady has to be our best player. He can’t digress like Lattin and McNeace, who showed so much promise as underclassmen before taking a step back as seniors.

I realize some will disagree with that last comment. But, when I say “taking a step back,” I’m talking about the expectations nearly everyone on the board had for both players early on that failed to materialize in their final season.

To be fair, though, Lattin and McNeace were projects to some extent due to their inexperience coming out of high school (the stories were well publicized). And, to be honest, that’s all too typical of most of the bigs we have recruited since our FF season. Manek and Doolittle were the exceptions.

I’m anxious to see guys like Kur, Victor, Hill, Williams and Harmon next season. That will be the real test of our current staff for me. Yes, I know Lon is the head coach and he’s ultimately responsible. But IMO, the assistants are the key to good player development and recruiting. If they’re not doing their job, the head coach is going to be in trouble at some point.