Politically Correct Hypocrisy taught at college campuses?

[SoonerBounce13]

They have no control over whether or not they are in court

lol

... and the fact you call them criminals pretty much shows your colors.

.

I shouldn't have called them criminals.

Out of curiousity, what is your success rate? What percentage of people that go to court, are found to be guilty?

 

[stormspencer]

No, you dont understand it or you wouldnt have made those comments. They have no control over whether or not they are in court ... and the fact you call them criminals pretty much shows your colors.

I know you were agreeing Gary. I was agreeing with your furtherance and furthering.

I think this is the genesis or root of the debate. You say that your clients have "no control" over the situation that they are in, while others deem that people need to take responsibility for their actions and not put themselves in that type of position. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

I think this is the genesis or root of the debate. You say that your clients have "no control" over the situation that they are in, while others deem that people need to take responsibility for their actions and not put themselves in that type of position. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

YES.

I know blacks likely get falsley accused of crimes at a higher rate than other races. I understand they might get longer punishments as well. This needs to change. But focusing all the efforts on this isn't going to change anything to fix the problem. The problem isn't what happens in the court. it is what happens on the streets and in the homes If you fix the courts, you will still have the crimes. If you fix the crimes, you won't have the issues in the courts.

 

[coolm]

well, no control as an absolute is obviously overstated. But the point remains.

If you can be detained and charged with a crime like "vagrancy" or "public drunk" with absolutely no evidence necessary other than the perception of a bigoted officer then you have no control and you remain at his whim. If they can hold you for 10 days with NO charge or even just 72 hours with no magistrate or bail set then your control is limited.

percentage? I am not a trial attorney any more. I dont keep percentages. I help mostly poor people with charges in many cases they have most certainly done - like being drunk in public or DUI or DUS or Domestics or larceny ... or in cases where it is more convenient to plea than pay for a trial.

 

[coolm]

YES.

I know blacks likely get falsley accused of crimes at a higher rate than other races. I understand they might get longer punishments as well. This needs to change. But focusing all the efforts on this isn't going to change anything to fix the problem. The problem isn't what happens in the court. it is what happens on the streets and in the homes If you fix the courts, you will still have the crimes. If you fix the crimes, you won't have the issues in the courts.

and what happens in the court directly affects what happens on the street. Dad gets a 5 in/5 out or a 10 on an 85% offense while the others get probation and now his family pays the price ... mom tries to accommodate by getting another job leading to unsupervised child leading to juvey leading to more association with street urchins leading to a kid heading down a DOC path where otherwise he might have been on the straight and narrow. It's all interconnected.

 

[WTSooner]

And, unlike the knuckle draggers, I do not formulate my world view from listening to Rush and watching Fox News.

I don't watch any political stuff. I form my opinions based on my experiences and my research. Not what somebody on tv, ANY tv station, tells me.

You may claim to be Republican, you may even be registered Republican, but you are not Republican. I've seen enough of your comments over the years to make that statement.

 

[coolm]

well I guess YOU got told.

good thing about this thread is I have learned who the true idiots are around here.

 

[WTSooner]

percentage? I am not a trial attorney any more. I dont keep percentages. I help mostly poor people with charges in many cases they have most certainly done - like being drunk in public or DUI or DUS or Domestics or larceny ... or in cases where it is more convenient to plea than pay for a trial.

So how many DUI cases you get where your client isn't actually guilty of DUI?

 

[SoonerBounce13]

and what happens in the court directly affects what happens on the street. Dad gets a 5 in/5 out or a 10 on an 85% offense while the others get probation and now his family pays the price ... mom tries to accommodate by getting another job leading to unsupervised child leading to juvey leading to more association with street urchins leading to a kid heading down a DOC path where otherwise he might have been on the straight and narrow. It's all interconnected.

And where did it start? The dad committing a crime

 

[coolm]

And where did it start? The dad committing a crime

again, you're being rather myopic ...

1. you're assuming he actually did something criminal.
2. you're not considering the origin of his activities

 

[jmizzy4ou]

... and there in lies the reason I usually avoid these type of threads. By now, I know the players, and can almost quote what certain posters will say when it comes to racial/social/political issues.

It is really sad the level of ignorance that shows through. I would suggest for those who like to spew "FACTS" , that aren't really facts, educate yourself. As a black man, I wish it was just so simple as blacks don't want to do better, blacks are bad, and blacks are more apt to do wrong. That would be so easily fixed!!

Institutional racism is best defined as expecting one sector or group of society to match the success of another group of society, while never giving the first mentioned group equal and fair treatment.

If anyone can't see the disparity in how criminal cases divide on racial lines, how predominantly black schools have less funding, resources, and good teachers, and other obvious pieces of evidence, then trying to discuss it any further is just a waste of time.

I am so glad for the improvement that we as a Nation have experienced, but there is still a ton of work eft to go. I'm happy that our younger generation seems to care less and less about the color of a man/woman, and more about the character of a man/woman.

My father passed away saying this country would never have a black man for President. I have gotten the opportunity to live long enough to see that barrier torn down, along with many others. I live each day with the confidence and belief that as a whole, we are still a nation of mostly good people, who will figure it out.

I use to get angry when I read ignorant posts full of racism or uneducated opinions. I nw just feel sorry for those people, and I realize in order for progress to happen, we also must drag our dead weight along with us.

Back on topic, I wish the Kentucky player, along with other young men/women in the black community, would let the N word die. Hip hop and other organizations have taken a very detrimental word which was created initially to belittle, intimidate, destroy self esteem, and exercise absolute control and power over an entire race of people, and they have made it into a term of endearment.

The word needs to go away forever, and it just makes me scratch my head when I see fights between both sides saying why can't side B say it, when side A says it? Neither side shoudlwant to say it. I don't see how some think the black player calling the white player the N word is equal to the SAE thing. If the black player had called him a redneck, honky, or cracker, it would have been more in line with a white using the N word, without the historical violence and negativity associated.

 

[stormspencer]

well I guess YOU got told.

good thing about this thread is I have learned who the true idiots are around here.

I've learned about some different perspectives on this thread including yours. We are all products of our experiences among other things. But calling people idiots (and someone else used the term knuckledraggers) who disagree with you is counter-productive to the discourse and creates a perception of "if you don't believe or think as I do, you're a racist" mentality...as an example. This is one of the biggest problems in our political culture on both sides of the isle and why few real problems in our society rarely get resolved.

 

[coolm]

So how many DUI cases you get where your client isn't actually guilty of DUI?

DUI is not much of a judgment call. I dont believe in technicalities on this level. If you were drinking and your driving was impaired then you're guilty of something. Maybe it's DWI, maybe it's DUI-drugs. Maybe it's an APC. My job for DUI's is working for a proper characterization of the plea - a deferred where it fits vice a conviction thru a suspended. Dropping fines and VCA's on persons who can't financially afford such high costs and will just end up back in court on a revo. Helping them get back a work permit and get help for a drinking problem thru assessments, AA, classes, or in-patient therapy.

your better question is probably concerning domestics. there you normally have a judgment call where perceptions and bias come into effect. The person taken to jail is the one who gets charged where, in over 75% of the cases, EITHER party could have been taken in because the legal standard is so slight. There you see an inordinate propensity to charge the male and more specifically a black male.

your other better question would be what pretense was used to stop, detain, question the person in the first place. We are ALL guilty of walking, driving, running around with a possible infraction waiting on our record or in our pocket or on our floorboard ... OR we are in the company of such a person. The line of demarcation there is what caused officers to detain them in the first place. In this instance the odds against a black male are overwhelming. Cops stop black men simply because they don't like them or they have preconceived notions of what a black man should be doing or where he should be. It's PURELY racist and this pretense is one of the biggest problems in the CJS.

 

[coolm]

I've learned about some different perspectives on this thread including yours. We are all products of our experiences among other things. But calling people idiots (and someone else used the term knuckledraggers) who disagree with you is counter-productive to the discourse and creates a perception of "if you don't believe or think as I do, you're a racist" mentality...as an example. This is one of the biggest problems in our political culture on both sides of the isle and why few real problems in our society rarely get resolved.

I call people idiots when they display idiocy.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

again, you're being rather myopic ...

1. you're assuming he actually did something criminal.
2. you're not considering the origin of his activities

to use your own words, i obviously overstated it...

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Institutional racism is best defined as expecting one sector or group of society to match the success of another group of society, while never giving the first mentioned group equal and fair treatment.

not sure i agree with this definition but ok

 

[SoonerBounce13]

I call people idiots when they display idiocy.

which is anyone that disagrees with you

 

[jmizzy4ou]

I'll add this then I'm going to crawl back into my hole:

This is specifically for Bounce, who I actually like and consider a fellow OU fan. Hopefully I can say this in a way that makes sense.

During slavery, one of the greatest challenges black families faced was the breaking apart of the family. Historical eye witness accounts have proven factually that black men were often force sold, away from their wives and children, into captivity on other plantations. Often, black mothers, who white slave owners were less likely to sell, were kept around the plantation to take care of the now fatherless kids, along with caring for the slave owners kids, while also filling their duties as midnight bed warmers.....

Generation after generation, for 100's of yrs saw black men ripped away from their families and sold to other plantations at the slave owner's discretion. Over those 100's of yrs, black women were forced to become very strong, dominant people. They had to fill so many roles, trying to protect their sons from the same fate their husbands got, while also balancing their other duties. The black woman became the voice of the black family, while the men were absent by force, and nothing more than sperm donors to keep the slave numbers up to quota.

Black men lost their emotional attachment to their families, and most black families consisted of a very strong mother figure who filled every role for the children. That mindset didn't just vanish when the slaves were set free. Free black men often went on with their lives as single men only caring for themselves, while most of the recently freed women chose to stay on as employees of the white slave owners. The divide between black men/women became very evident. Many of the black men who chose to try and return to their families after they received freedom encountered a different wife that they left.

The women were much more vocal, controlling, and unwilling to allow a man who had been absent for decades, to all of a sudden return and assume their role as leader of the house.

Flash forward to today, and the greatest issue I believe faced by black families is the absence of fathers/male role models. How did this absence occur?? Do you really believe black men were just born with a gene that makes them want to abandon their kids/families?? Do you believe black men are so different than other races of men that they just woke up one day and said I'm not going to take responsibility for the seeds I produced??

Of course they didn't. It is called conditioning. It is so evident if you are willing to be objective. Is is an excuse still valid?? Not in my opinion, but the reasoning is clear to me. I feel so fortunate because I grew up with a present father, grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc.... but i remember so many black males who had no one except momma, grandma, and big sister.

Add in black men dying at an alarming rate through street violence, very unfair sentencing practices for yrs putting many black men in prison, and you have a mindset and a culture that is very hard to overcome, started during slavery, but still prevalent today.

It's easy to say slavery doesn't directly affect the black community today, but I just gave you one real proven example. You could compare it with the culture in the middle east. Why is it so hard to get men of middle eastern heritage to accept women as their equals?? Do you think they just woke up one day and said we want to low rate our women?? It is a learned mindset that has spanned generation, after generation, and it is VERY hard to break the cycle in the way they think.

There is no easy answer in the black community. The challenges don't stop there. If you research divorce stats in the black community, one of the most prevalent reasons given by black men for leaving their black wives is, the women don't respect them, they talk very down on them, and they won't let the man be a part of the decision making for the kids. Where did that come from? Add in drugs, alcohol, poverty, street violence, and now you are seeing the manifestation of decades of wrong thinking, all directly related back to the destroying of the black family.

I know this probably sounds foreign to many, but i have spent much of my adult life researching and studying this stuff because I genuinely care about why the black community is like it is today. Do I blame whites?? Of course not, but i also don't minimize the lasting effects of the institution of slavery, and oppression of my people.

I see young black fathers every day who make babies and walk away as if they have no responsibility. Trying to get them to change that way of thinking is a hard fight, because for decades, that is the way it has been, since the tearing down of the black family structure.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

I'll add this then I'm going to crawl back into my hole:

This is specifically for Bounce, who I actually like and consider a fellow OU fan. Hopefully I can say this in a way that makes sense.

During slavery, one of the greatest challenges black families faced was the breaking apart of the family. Historical eye witness accounts have proven factually that black men were often force sold, away from their wives and children, into captivity on other plantations. Often, black mothers, who white slave owners were less likely to sell, were kept around the plantation to take care of the now fatherless kids, along with caring for the slave owners kids, while also filling their duties as midnight bed warmers.....

Generation after generation, for 100's of yrs saw black men ripped away from their families and sold to other plantations at the slave owner's discretion. Over those 100's of yrs, black women were forced to become very strong, dominant people. They had to fill so many roles, trying to protect their sons from the same fate their husbands got, while also balancing their other duties. The black woman became the voice of the black family, while the men were absent by force, and nothing more than sperm donors to keep the slave numbers up to quota.

Black men lost their emotional attachment to their families, and most black families consisted of a very strong mother figure who filled every role for the children. That mindset didn't just vanish when the slaves were set free. Free black men often went on with their lives as single men only caring for themselves, while most of the recently freed women chose to stay on as employees of the white slave owners. The divide between black men/women became very evident. Many of the black men who chose to try and return to their families after they received freedom encountered a different wife that they left.

The women were much more vocal, controlling, and unwilling to allow a man who had been absent for decades, to all of a sudden return and assume their role as leader of the house.

Flash forward to today, and the greatest issue I believe faced by black families is the absence of fathers/male role models. How did this absence occur?? Do you really believe black men were just born with a gene that makes them want to abandon their kids/families?? Do you believe black men are so different than other races of men that they just woke up one day and said I'm not going to take responsibility for the seeds I produced??

Of course they didn't. It is called conditioning. It is so evident if you are willing to be objective. Is is an excuse still valid?? Not in my opinion, but the reasoning is clear to me. I feel so fortunate because I grew up with a present father, grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc.... but i remember so many black males who had no one except momma, grandma, and big sister.

Add in black men dying at an alarming rate through street violence, very unfair sentencing practices for yrs putting many black men in prison, and you have a mindset and a culture that is very hard to overcome, started during slavery, but still prevalent today.

It's easy to say slavery doesn't directly affect the black community today, but I just gave you one real proven example. You could compare it with the culture in the middle east. Why is it so hard to get men of middle eastern heritage to accept women as their equals?? Do you think they just woke up one day and said we want to low rate our women?? It is a learned mindset that has spanned generation, after generation, and it is VERY hard to break the cycle in the way they think.

There is no easy answer in the black community. The challenges don't stop there. If you research divorce stats in the black community, one of the most prevalent reasons given by black men for leaving their black wives is, the women don't respect them, they talk very down on them, and they won't let the man be a part of the decision making for the kids. Where did that come from? Add in drugs, alcohol, poverty, street violence, and now you are seeing the manifestation of decades of wrong thinking, all directly related back to the destroying of the black family.

I know this probably sounds foreign to many, but i have spent much of my adult life researching and studying this stuff because I genuinely care about why the black community is like it is today. Do I blame whites?? Of course not, but i also don't minimize the lasting effects of the institution of slavery, and oppression of my people.

I see young black fathers every day who make babies and walk away as if they have no responsibility. Trying to get them to change that way of thinking is a hard fight, because for decades, that is the way it has been, since the tearing down of the black family structure.

It's a truly sad situation.

But imo it is a huge insult to black people to blame the issue on conditioning after it have been well over 100 years of no slavery. I can buy that for the first few decades but not over a century. It's a built in excuse.

The of the reasons I don't completely buy into it is b/c we see it with other races too and I think we are seeing it more and more accross the board. People just don't want to take responsibility.

I do appreciate the post though and always like hearing your side of the story for more perspective

 

[stormspencer]

I'll add this then I'm going to crawl back into my hole:

This is specifically for Bounce, who I actually like and consider a fellow OU fan. Hopefully I can say this in a way that makes sense.

During slavery, one of the greatest challenges black families faced was the breaking apart of the family. Historical eye witness accounts have proven factually that black men were often force sold, away from their wives and children, into captivity on other plantations. Often, black mothers, who white slave owners were less likely to sell, were kept around the plantation to take care of the now fatherless kids, along with caring for the slave owners kids, while also filling their duties as midnight bed warmers.....

Generation after generation, for 100's of yrs saw black men ripped away from their families and sold to other plantations at the slave owner's discretion. Over those 100's of yrs, black women were forced to become very strong, dominant people. They had to fill so many roles, trying to protect their sons from the same fate their husbands got, while also balancing their other duties. The black woman became the voice of the black family, while the men were absent by force, and nothing more than sperm donors to keep the slave numbers up to quota.

Black men lost their emotional attachment to their families, and most black families consisted of a very strong mother figure who filled every role for the children. That mindset didn't just vanish when the slaves were set free. Free black men often went on with their lives as single men only caring for themselves, while most of the recently freed women chose to stay on as employees of the white slave owners. The divide between black men/women became very evident. Many of the black men who chose to try and return to their families after they received freedom encountered a different wife that they left.

The women were much more vocal, controlling, and unwilling to allow a man who had been absent for decades, to all of a sudden return and assume their role as leader of the house.

Flash forward to today, and the greatest issue I believe faced by black families is the absence of fathers/male role models. How did this absence occur?? Do you really believe black men were just born with a gene that makes them want to abandon their kids/families?? Do you believe black men are so different than other races of men that they just woke up one day and said I'm not going to take responsibility for the seeds I produced??

Of course they didn't. It is called conditioning. It is so evident if you are willing to be objective. Is is an excuse still valid?? Not in my opinion, but the reasoning is clear to me. I feel so fortunate because I grew up with a present father, grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc.... but i remember so many black males who had no one except momma, grandma, and big sister.

Add in black men dying at an alarming rate through street violence, very unfair sentencing practices for yrs putting many black men in prison, and you have a mindset and a culture that is very hard to overcome, started during slavery, but still prevalent today.

It's easy to say slavery doesn't directly affect the black community today, but I just gave you one real proven example. You could compare it with the culture in the middle east. Why is it so hard to get men of middle eastern heritage to accept women as their equals?? Do you think they just woke up one day and said we want to low rate our women?? It is a learned mindset that has spanned generation, after generation, and it is VERY hard to break the cycle in the way they think.

There is no easy answer in the black community. The challenges don't stop there. If you research divorce stats in the black community, one of the most prevalent reasons given by black men for leaving their black wives is, the women don't respect them, they talk very down on them, and they won't let the man be a part of the decision making for the kids. Where did that come from? Add in drugs, alcohol, poverty, street violence, and now you are seeing the manifestation of decades of wrong thinking, all directly related back to the destroying of the black family.

I know this probably sounds foreign to many, but i have spent much of my adult life researching and studying this stuff because I genuinely care about why the black community is like it is today. Do I blame whites?? Of course not, but i also don't minimize the lasting effects of the institution of slavery, and oppression of my people.

I see young black fathers every day who make babies and walk away as if they have no responsibility. Trying to get them to change that way of thinking is a hard fight, because for decades, that is the way it has been, since the tearing down of the black family structure.

I appreciate your perspective and you bring up some valid points. The deterioration of the inner city family structure (all races) is definitely a problem that we as a society need to be more deliberate and consistent in addressing. It took decades to evolve to what it is today and it likely won't be resolved in the short term. All you, I, or anyone can do is practice what Christ said..."love your neighbor as yourself". There are various ways to do this...whether it is volunteering our time, helping monetarily, educating, and even practicing some tough love principles when it is warranted.