Question about Officiating

[DenverSooner]

In the 80s if a player went to the floor with the ball they called a travel. Now you see guys roll around on the floor with no travel called. Why? What changed?

Also you now see guys jump on top of another player and get a tie up. That makes no sense, it is foul when you make the body contact.

Perhaps some of you guys that played college ball, coach or officiate could explain this to me.

 

[AdaSooner]

If a player falls to the floor while they are in control of the ball, there is no question about the call. It should be an automatic traveling violation.

It's not the same when a player who is already on the floor gains control of the ball. Officials have always been somewhat reluctant to call a violation when a player rolls over or tries to keep opposing player from tying him up or stealing the ball. Typically, if he doesn't advance the ball too much in his attempt to maintain control, the activity is ignored until he passes the ball, calls a timeout or a held ball occurs.

I agree, though, officials in college today are more lenient than they were in the 80s and even later. They also allow a lot more contact in fighting for loose balls. While the ball is still loose, it's fair game for anyone. That changes when a player has complete control. In that situation, I believe a foul should be called when an opposing player jumps on top of the guy with the ball.

If you're talking about the play toward the end of the IU/Temple game, I totally agree. That was a foul!

 

[WTSooner]

Seems to me they changed the rule on going to the floor a few years ago. I might be wrong though.

And I've always hated the no-calls on people diving on others already on the floor for a tie-up. Agree, that should be a foul.

 

[AdaSooner]

Seems to me they changed the rule on going to the floor a few years ago. I might be wrong though.And I've always hated the no-calls on people diving on others already on the floor for a tie-up. Agree, that should be a foul.

You may be thinking about something else. That rule has not changed, it's the same in college and high school. If a player falls to the floor while in control of the ball, it's a violation. I remember when that rule was introduced many years ago. The term used to emphasize the call was, "it's an automatic call."

The only way it's not is if the player somehow maintains his pivot foot, or starts his dribble before landing on the floor. I have seen players dribble the ball to avoid the violation before, so it is possible.

Here's the rule:

4.44.5 SITUATION A: Is it traveling if A1 falls to the floor: (a) while holding the ball; or (b) after being airborne to catch a pass or control a rebound? RULING: Yes in both (a) and (b).

 

[BCSooners]

If a player gains control while diving on the ball he can slide, but if he rolls then it should be called a travel.

 

[DenverSooner]

If a player gains control while diving on the ball he can slide, but if he rolls then it should be called a travel.

Why? The slide is movement without dribbling and without a pivot foot. I liked the way they called it in the old days

 

[DenverSooner]

Did you see that in the Miami game? FOUL!

 

[brettromar]

Why? The slide is movement without dribbling and without a pivot foot. I liked the way they called it in the old days

The reason it is called a travel when you fall down is because you lose that established pivot foot as it comes off the floor.

IF someone dives for the ball and slides with it, there was no established pivot foot, therefore no walk.

It is much like an inbounds play. A player can jump in the air from the front court and catch the ball and land in the backcourt without it being a violation. That is because he hasn't established possession in the frontcourt before he caught the ball.

 

[campbest]

Why? The slide is movement without dribbling and without a pivot foot. I liked the way they called it in the old days

Because it's the rule.

 

[DenverSooner]

Because it's the rule.

What is the rule? That you can roll around on the floor with possession of the ball if you never established a pivot foot? I don't think that is the rule. could you crawl or roll to the basket? I think the interpretation of the rules have changed a lot over the years.

 

[usedtobe1]

All basketball officials are required to go to clinics/camps where they have points of emphasis every year. I suppose over the years they have changed the emphasis on many calls. I know in my many years of refereeing HS basketball, play is a lot more physical now and they run a lot more than when I started (or even back many years ago when I played). The game continues to evolve.

Many on this board used to referee (e.g. Ada). I gave up calling games 3-4 years ago partly because I was getting too old, and partly because I got tired of doing it. I still watch the officials in a lot of the games (mechanics, rotations, etc.).

 

[AdaSooner]

What is the rule? That you can roll around on the floor with possession of the ball if you never established a pivot foot? I don't think that is the rule. could you crawl or roll to the basket? I think the interpretation of the rules have changed a lot over the years.

Denver, I don't know this for sure, but think you may be right in that the interpretation has changed to some extent. Usetobe1 and campbest may be in a better position than me to answer that question.

In the old days if a player secured a loose ball and attempted to advance it by rolling over more than the initial act of gaining control, traveling would have been called. If a player got possession of the ball and stood up, it was a violation, and to be best of my knowledge it's still called that way.

The main thing to look for is did a player have control of the ball? If a ball is loose on the floor and two or more players are trying to gain possession, it could be tapped and batted around for a considerable distance with no violation occurring.

 

[campbest]

Easiest way to call it is look at any movement in the form of a 90 degree turn, i.e. if he was on his back, did he turn all the way to his left or right shoulder. Same thing if he is on his stomach. Also, if a player grabs the ball while sliding, they are allowed to have their momentum stopped before the rule takes effect.

As Ada said, the biggest thing is "possession" has to be clearly established. If the ball is being fumbled on someone's chest or is not held on a fall to the ground, then possession wasn't established or fully retained.

 

[mict085]

It's getting bad with the WWE jumping on top of a player for a jump ball. I've seen several games in the tourney this yr where a player jumps on another one, grabs his arm, or puts him in a sleeper hold only to see the ref call a jump ball. It used to be 2 hands on the ball for more than 1-2 seconds. Now you don't even have to touch the ball, just dive on top of another player and put him in a headlock and its a jump ball.

 

[DenverSooner]

It's getting bad with the WWE jumping on top of a player for a jump ball. I've seen several games in the tourney this yr where a player jumps on another one, grabs his arm, or puts him in a sleeper hold only to see the ref call a jump ball. It used to be 2 hands on the ball for more than 1-2 seconds. Now you don't even have to touch the ball, just dive on top of another player and put him in a headlock and its a jump ball.

Exactly and I don't see how you can make contact with the body without it being a foul.

Now the announcers are starting to say things like that block was all ball (which is often true) and ignoring that the defender's lower body went through the shooters lower body (not just brushed moved it 6 inches or a foot when the shooters momentum is taking it in a different direction).

I like basketball so these interpretations won't bother me but if the average fan likes a high scoring game perhaps going back to the way the game was called in the late 80s would increase the scoring.

 

[AdaSooner]

I agree with you, Denver. Basketball is not the "finesse" game it was meant to be anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "letting them play" to some extent. But IMO the physical contact is so out of hand, it could threaten to ruin the game at some point. There are already signs of that in the rash of low scoring games we're seeing now. I realize there are other factors that contribute to an anemic offense. Still, no one can make me believe that the beyond what I consider reasonable physical contact on defense is not contributing to it in a major way.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Why? The slide is movement without dribbling and without a pivot foot. I liked the way they called it in the old days

A girl last night slid three feet on her knees and nothing was called. The one I guess I have to used to is the take two steps and then crow hop. That always used to be traveling.

Too bad Chuck doesn't post here. Maybe I'll seek him out.

 

[DenverSooner]

Denver, I don't know this for sure, but think you may be right in that the interpretation has changed to some extent. Usetobe1 and campbest may be in a better position than me to answer that question.

In the old days if a player secured a loose ball and attempted to advance it by rolling over more than the initial act of gaining control, traveling would have been called. If a player got possession of the ball and stood up, it was a violation, and to be best of my knowledge it's still called that way.

The main thing to look for is did a player have control of the ball? If a ball is loose on the floor and two or more players are trying to gain possession, it could be tapped and batted around for a considerable distance with no violation occurring.

I don't believe it but people routinely argue that atheletes today are better than they were 20, 30, 40, etc. years ago. If that is true, they should score more often not less often. The offensive player has the advantage in basketball otherwise you would have a low scoring game like soccer, hockey, baseball or lacross.

 

[brettromar]

:billy

I don't believe it but people routinely argue that atheletes today are better than they were 20, 30, 40, etc. years ago. If that is true, they should score more often not less often. The offensive player has the advantage in basketball otherwise you would have a low scoring game like soccer, hockey, baseball or lacross.

I am not trying to be argumentative here but the offensive player doesn't have the advantange anymore with the way the game is called.

They allow defenses to jam more than ever, grab and hold jerseys as well as arms, hand is part of the ball call (I hate that one), and others.

The game is completely different in terms of how it is called. THe argument that if athletes are better they should be able to score more is thrown out by what they allow the defense to do now. Hand checking is completely different than in the past. It used to be if you had a hand on someone it was a foul. Now you can two arm shove the guy, but if the ref determines that it didn't change your direction, they won't call anything.


Back to you original point. Sliding on the floor with the ball isn't a travel. Sliding on the floor then rolling over should be called. You put two things together when you got frustrated with the explanation of an established pivot foot.

 

[DenverSooner]

:billy

I am not trying to be argumentative here but the offensive player doesn't have the advantange anymore with the way the game is called.

They allow defenses to jam more than ever, grab and hold jerseys as well as arms, hand is part of the ball call (I hate that one), and others.

The game is completely different in terms of how it is called. THe argument that if athletes are better they should be able to score more is thrown out by what they allow the defense to do now. Hand checking is completely different than in the past. It used to be if you had a hand on someone it was a foul. Now you can two arm shove the guy, but if the ref determines that it didn't change your direction, they won't call anything.

That is my point. I think we are in agreement. I don't really care how they call the game but I will say attendence and scoring are down. Perhaps they are related.