Recruiting/development

[WichitaSooner]

Interesting article on The Athletic today. They looked back at which programs have put the most non-five-star guys in the NBA over the past 15 years. KU and Michigan are tied at the top, with Gonzaga and Virginia tied for third. There have been lots of posts on here when we lose out on a recruit to KU, with people claiming that OU has as good a track record of developing NBA players, etc. I despise KU, but I think lots of people underestimate what a good job Self does not only winning games, but putting guys in the league, including guys no one saw as NBA players coming out of high school.

 

[BCSooners]

Interesting article on The Athletic today. They looked back at which programs have put the most non-five-star guys in the NBA over the past 15 years. KU and Michigan are tied at the top, with Gonzaga and Virginia tied for third. There have been lots of posts on here when we lose out on a recruit to KU, with people claiming that OU has as good a track record of developing NBA players, etc. I despise KU, but I think lots of people underestimate what a good job Self does not only winning games, but putting guys in the league, including guys no one saw as NBA players coming out of high school.

Self does do an amazing job. But those 4 teams are also putting high 4* in the league, it's not like they are finding diamond in the roughs everywhere. I'm more impressed with Virginia out of those 4, even though I really liked Beilein.

 

[mict085]

Interesting article on The Athletic today. They looked back at which programs have put the most non-five-star guys in the NBA over the past 15 years. KU and Michigan are tied at the top, with Gonzaga and Virginia tied for third. There have been lots of posts on here when we lose out on a recruit to KU, with people claiming that OU has as good a track record of developing NBA players, etc. I despise KU, but I think lots of people underestimate what a good job Self does not only winning games, but putting guys in the league, including guys no one saw as NBA players coming out of high school.

Self is a good coach but that’s a stretch. KU signs a lot of nba talent. 5 stars doesn’t mean NBA. 4 stars doesn’t mean not nba. Every player that has signed with ku in the last 15 years had NBA potential. Maybe we should look at how many of those guys failed to make the NBA.

Self has a roster of 13+ guys that all have NBA potential and only a few make it. He’s a good coach but you’re giving him too much credit. KU is an nba factory and half their roster gets thrown in the junk pile while the few that make it are celebrated as being “developed” by self.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Self is a good coach but that’s a stretch. KU signs a lot of nba talent. 5 stars doesn’t mean NBA. 4 stars doesn’t mean not nba. Every player that has signed with ku in the last 15 years had NBA potential. Maybe we should look at how many of those guys failed to make the NBA.

Self has a roster of 13+ guys that all have NBA potential and only a few make it. He’s a good coach but you’re giving him too much credit. KU is an nba factory and half their roster gets thrown in the junk pile while the few that make it are celebrated as being “developed” by self.

Those statements are laughable. No team in college history has had a roster with 13 players with NBA potential; no one has even come close. KU's 2008 title team was Self's most talented and they had 5 or 6 future NBA guys, but even they are not considered to be one of the elite teams of all time. Heck, it seems like more years than not, we have plenty of posters saying KU isn't all that talented every time they lose a game in the first three months of the season.

As to your initial point, it's not absolute, but stats show that 5-stars make the NBA over 75 percent of the time. Sure, there are others who make it, but odds are a lot lower for non-5-stars. In just the last few years, he has taken plenty of guys who were way down the recruiting rankings and turned them into great college players who go on to have long NBA careers. There was no one in America who would have tabbed Mason and Graham as NBA guys when they were in high school. Agbaji was ranked in the 300s his senior year. Christian Braun wasn't exactly projected as a pro when he arrived at KU. They have signed far fewer 5-stars than some other elite programs the past few years, especially since the NCAA investigation started. You can hate the guy all you want, but acting like he isn't a good developmental coach is crazy.

 

[WaymanFan]

I'll admit to not being overly impressed with Self as a developer of NBA talent. He has been at Kansas for almost 20 years, and this past year only his second KU player (Wiggens) was good enough to make an NBA all-Star game (Embiid is the other). Congrats to Self that he has coached the same number of NBA All-Stars at Kansas as have played at OU during that time.

He certainly gets a lot of high 4-star and 5-star players, so not surprised some of them landed on NBA rosters.

 

[WichitaSooner]

I'll admit to not being overly impressed with Self as a developer of NBA talent. He has been at Kansas for almost 20 years, and this past year only his second KU player (Wiggens) was good enough to make an NBA all-Star game (Embiid is the other). Congrats to Self that he has coached the same number of NBA All-Stars at Kansas as have played at OU during that time.

He certainly gets a lot of high 4-star and 5-star players, so not surprised some of them landed on NBA rosters.

So if a guy plays in the NBA for a decade as a very good player, makes tens of millions of dollars, but isn’t an All Star, that doesn’t count for anything? I guess by that logic, Buddy didn’t really develop at OU since he has never been an All Star.

 

[CoachTalk]

Self hate all you want.

Dude is really good in all facets of basketball.

Met him this summer and you guys would be surprised how dang cool he was. I know I hated it as well.

 

[WaymanFan]

So if a guy plays in the NBA for a decade as a very good player, makes tens of millions of dollars, but isn’t an All Star, that doesn’t count for anything? I guess by that logic, Buddy didn’t really develop at OU since he has never been an All Star.

The year OU inked low 4-star Buddy Hield, Self nabbed McDonald's All-American Perry Ellis. Who is the better NBA player?

The problem with your argument is that Self really hasn't had enough of those Buddy Hield type players...had a lot more Perry Ellis type players.

Hey, the guy is an amazing college coach. His record speaks for itself. But he is basically Roy Williams - a Hall of Fame college coach who has limited success on developing NBA All-Star caliber players. The same can also be said for Bobby Knight.

 

[Eielson]

I've never questioned Self's ability to develop 3 and 4 star players. It's the 5-stars that leave something to be desired.

 

[CoachTalk]

They have the 3rd most nba players on rosters…. Behind Duke and Kentucky.

That was 21-22 season. Quick search didn’t reveal this years yet.

Making the nba is really hard. Even for 5 stars.

 

[WichitaSooner]

The year OU inked low 4-star Buddy Hield, Self nabbed McDonald's All-American Perry Ellis. Who is the better NBA player?

The problem with your argument is that Self really hasn't had enough of those Buddy Hield type players...had a lot more Perry Ellis type players.

Hey, the guy is an amazing college coach. His record speaks for itself. But he is basically Roy Williams - a Hall of Fame college coach who has limited success on developing NBA All-Star caliber players. The same can also be said for Bobby Knight.

Of course you can point to one example. The article that I cited compiles all the numbers over 15 years for every program. No program has more “Buddy Hield type players” than KU. So if Self doesn’t have enough of those, then I guess every coach in the country is terrible at developing talent, and Self is simply the best of an incompetent lot. And I cited plenty of guys yesterday who came to KU rated as low or lower than Buddy who are in the NBA. As for your final point, neither the article nor my post said anything about developing All Stars. Again, you don’t have to become an All Star to be a success story. I’m guessing lots of high school guys would be happy to sign on the dotted line as a high school senior if you could guarantee them a lengthy career as a very good NBA player who makes $100+ million even if they never make an All Star game. Once a guy is in the league, I think we can safely say that their college coach no longer has much control or influence over how much they continue to develop. The college coach’s job is to help get them to the league. After that, the player and his pro coaches do the rest.

 

[snydrosooner]

Self is a great coach wether he develops or just gets most out of his players skill they already possess. The question I would ask is what is the line between truly developing a player against featuring the player in the offense? A player who is featured can use his talents to put up lots of points versus someone who is not focal point. I think self has always done a good job of featuring certain players.

 

[WaymanFan]

Of course you can point to one example. The article that I cited compiles all the numbers over 15 years for every program. No program has more “Buddy Hield type players” than KU. So if Self doesn’t have enough of those, then I guess every coach in the country is terrible at developing talent, and Self is simply the best of an incompetent lot. And I cited plenty of guys yesterday who came to KU rated as low or lower than Buddy who are in the NBA. As for your final point, neither the article nor my post said anything about developing All Stars. Again, you don’t have to become an All Star to be a success story. I’m guessing lots of high school guys would be happy to sign on the dotted line as a high school senior if you could guarantee them a lengthy career as a very good NBA player who makes $100+ million even if they never make an All Star game. Once a guy is in the league, I think we can safely say that their college coach no longer has much control or influence over how much they continue to develop. The college coach’s job is to help get them to the league. After that, the player and his pro coaches do the rest.

Actually, I can point to a lot of examples...just gave one since you mentioned Buddy Hield. And speaking of him, feel free to list all of the Bill Self low 4-star recruits (meaning not consensus top 100) who have averaged about 15 points a game in the NBA over 7 seasons. I would expect a head coach at a Blue Blood basketball school to have a whole bunch of high 4-star and 5-star players...and would expect at least 10% of them to make an NBA All-Star game at some point down the line.

Bill Self, Roy Williams and Bobby Knight are three of the 10 best college head coaches of all time. And I'm sure all three had a whole bunch of journeymen NBA players at some point. However, I can guarantee you none of them will ever have a legacy as developers of NBA talent no matter how many square pegs people want to jam into round holes.

 

[mict085]

Yeah, self is a very good coach but if he and KU hadn’t been cheating everyday since he set foot on campus, they’d have zero titles and this would be a much different conversation.