SAE Video Discussion Thread

Zim, have you read Noah Feldman's take on this? He makes a stong case that Boren has the authority based on protecting the university from a hostile environment which is firmly established law.
 
coolm said:
Paid for exorbitant legal fees? LOL that is HILARIOUS! I bought a car but that doesn't make me a mechanic. I bought lunch but that doesn't make me a chef. Anyway, I digress.

I want to go back to the other part of this discussion. I was also a greek at OU in the early to mid 80's and that racism crap was darn prevalent. Not sure where these other guys were frequenting but the Betas, Delts, Sig Eps, Sigma Nus, Lambda Chis, and a few others were chock full of racists. Don't even get me started about the sororities. I heard that same damn song at no less than 3 of those listed above. If you signed during summer rush and participated in the geek squad during open rush (to run off those who "didnt fit in") then you heard it all. VERY racist and intolerant.

In fact, the whole reason I left the greek system at OU was because I was told in no uncertain terms that my dating a black girl was wrong and I shouldnt be hanging out with friends at the BSU. So racism was very prevalent.

When SAE was allowed back on campus around '94 their officers included many minorities and it was a very open, diverse and tolerant group. I know a guy real well who was there during that period and he told me they weren't anything like that (racist). Of course, Ms. Gilbow is the mother of one of my friends from EHS (Jason Gilbow) and she is NOT racist nor is Jason. In fact, Jason's family is very very tight with The King and I would hope everyone knows he is FAR from being racist.

The point is it has been a problem in the past and even when a group thinks they get by it .. it creeps right back in. And it will continue to creep right back in as long as you have close-minded alumni and their privileged children as the target pledges.

That said - the TKE house at UCO is an example of the other side. Those guys had a diverse house way back in the early 80's and to this day offer a great example of the tolerance a fraternity should strive to achieve. It's because their alum are dedicated to being a diverse and open group and stress it every step of the way. OU's greek system should follow suit.
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Cool makes an important point. The alums, chapter advisors and officers of any fraternity or sorority can control this type of thing - if they really want to. They are every bit as much to blame as the people on the bus.
 
MsProudSooner said:
Cool makes an important point. The alums, chapter advisors and officers of any fraternity or sorority can control this type of thing - if they really want to. They are every bit as much to blame as the people on the bus.
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This attitude is the nonsense I hate. You don't know who is responsible for it. There wasn't an investigation, either, they just gave everyone the boot.

The people we know bear responsibility are the poeple on the bus, singing the song. Past that it's completely unsubstantiated gossip that affects the reputations of real people.
 
sperry said:
It has everything to do with it, adn I'm having a hard time understanding why you're too dense to understand this.
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So you're saying that attending class is free speech? Because that is what they are being deprived of due to the fact that their presence specifically in that closed private setting would be disruptive to others.
 
sybarite said:
Zim, have you read Noah Feldman's take on this? He makes a stong case that Boren has the authority based on protecting the university from a hostile environment which is firmly established law.
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I just read it, and that's an interesting take. Thanks for the heads up. However, I'm not sure I'd refer to anything he said as "firmly established law." In particular, I note he didn't cite a single case in support of his theory and admits that his "legal logic here may seem slippery." He's right. The analogy to sexual harassment is pretty tenuous for any number of reasons. I think this is a more "hopeful" analysis than one based on actual legal precedent. In short, it would be a novel holding if a court went this way.

In the end, I'd like to see OU give this argument a try. It's an interesting question. I am somewhat uncomfortable with what might come of this if OU won. What constitutes a "hostile educational environment" and who draws that line? Could there be cases of trumped up accusations of "hostility"? It happens with some frequency in sexual harassment cases. I don't always love a "slippery slope" argument, but here I think it's apt.
 
Bottom line is that ignorant racist white trash has been on a 150+ year losing streak in the USA and they are going to lose here too. Both in the court of public opinion and law.
 
sperry said:
This attitude is the nonsense I hate. You don't know who is responsible for it. There wasn't an investigation, either, they just gave everyone the boot.

The people we know bear responsibility are the poeple on the bus, singing the song. Past that it's completely unsubstantiated gossip that affects the reputations of real people.
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Everyone wasn't given the boot. Only 2 (to this point) have been expelled from school. The others are still students. They just had to leave the house that OU closed and find other living arrangements. Since the National SAE fraternity took away their chapter also, they wouldn't have been allowed to stay.
 
I think all fraternities should be giving out bids to African Americans, it's their choice to not go however. But all should be inclusive of all races. It would go along ways in removing the racist feelings.
 
tycat947 said:
Everyone wasn't given the boot. Only 2 (to this point) have been expelled from school. The others are still students. They just had to leave the house that OU closed and find other living arrangements. Since the National SAE fraternity took away their chapter also, they wouldn't have been allowed to stay.
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I understand what happened, and I understand why Boren and the national chapter did what they did. They were 100% correct to do so. It's also completely unfair to put any kind of label on anyone that wasn't in that video.
 
Sometimes the you need to accept consequences to grow as a person.
 
sperry said:
This attitude is the nonsense I hate. You don't know who is responsible for it. There wasn't an investigation, either, they just gave everyone the boot.

The people we know bear responsibility are the poeple on the bus, singing the song. Past that it's completely unsubstantiated gossip that affects the reputations of real people.
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I spent enough years in the Greek system to know that strong leadership can control the behavior of freshmen. Strong leadership would teach the freshmen that song wasn't acceptable. Apparently, from what I've read, that bus was all freshmen. How about enough common sense to have a few upper classmen on the bus. The right upper classmen on that bus could have nipped it in the bud.
 
Something that surprises me is the contempt for the Greek System that many seem to have.

I don't know an OU without it.
 
MNsooner said:
Sometimes the you need to accept consequences to grow as a person.
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I have no issue with them sueing if this was honestly an isolated incident....meaning the students in the house do not pass down this chant as tradition. I find that hard to believe but.....I would be pressed pissed off if I did nothing wrong and was kicked out of my frat
 
coolm said:
When SAE was allowed back on campus around '94 their officers included many minorities and it was a very open, diverse and tolerant group. I know a guy real well who was there during that period and he told me they weren't anything like that (racist). Of course, Ms. Gilbow is the mother of one of my friends from EHS (Jason Gilbow) and she is NOT racist nor is Jason. In fact, Jason's family is very very tight with The King and I would hope everyone knows he is FAR from being racist.

.
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You must then know Jeff?
 
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