The odd national-media ignorance of Wayman's career

[NMSooner'80]

This was also discussed on KREF a couple of weeks ago, around Signing Day, and I forgot to make a post about it on any of the basketball-related boards.

I may live in Albuquerque, and I also work for UNM, but there is NO WAY I could honestly say that Steve Alford (current UNM coach) belonged on a "greatest of all-time" players' list over Tisdale. That's absurd. The only thing that Alford has going for him over Wayman is a national title, and I think that Wayman could have gotten that had he stayed for his senior year. Heck, I don't even think Alford would say he was better as a player than Wayman was.

There was also such a bias against Billy Tubbs back then in the non-Oklahoma media that I think the "talking heads" failed to give Wayman his due. For some reason, Billy was labeled as a mediocre coach, mainly because he didn't play slow-it-down basketball. So I think people figured Billy "just rolled the ball out there" (and did no coaching), and thus Wayman was considered one-dimensional. If you saw him play, you knew better.

And of course, the papers in the Big 8 region took their cues from the Kansas City Star, which dumped on OU and labeled us an outlaw program. The OU teams of that era were just a little too flashy and successful for their staid, "a football school can't be good at hoops" attitudes in the KC area. The pro-Beaker (KU) leaning papers were the worst, from what I recall, and that semi-retired idiot named Chuck Woodling took the occasion of Wayman's death to dredge up a one-sided account of the '84 game in the Phog. Even some KU fans in the Lawrence area thought that was out of line.

The book that listed those players, which I believe came from Sports Illustrated, would have been on my Christmas wish list in a heartbeat. Since they screwed up that badly, I refused to consider getting one.

It's also a shame that Wayman's good career stats in the NBA were forgotten by those who should know better. He had a nice NBA career; just played on a bunch of lousy teams in the pros.

Any "best college players of all time" list that fails to include Wayman is a joke, pure and simple.

 

[stoops4pres]

This was also discussed on KREF a couple of weeks ago, around Signing Day, and I forgot to make a post about it on any of the basketball-related boards.

I may live in Albuquerque, and I also work for UNM, but there is NO WAY I could honestly say that Steve Alford (current UNM coach) belonged on a "greatest of all-time" players' list over Tisdale. That's absurd. The only thing that Alford has going for him over Wayman is a national title, and I think that Wayman could have gotten that had he stayed for his senior year. Heck, I don't even think Alford would say he was better as a player than Wayman was.

There was also such a bias against Billy Tubbs back then in the non-Oklahoma media that I think the "talking heads" failed to give Wayman his due. For some reason, Billy was labeled as a mediocre coach, mainly because he didn't play slow-it-down basketball. So I think people figured Billy "just rolled the ball out there" (and did no coaching), and thus Wayman was considered one-dimensional. If you saw him play, you knew better.

And of course, the papers in the Big 8 region took their cues from the Kansas City Star, which dumped on OU and labeled us an outlaw program. The OU teams of that era were just a little too flashy and successful for their staid, "a football school can't be good at hoops" attitudes in the KC area. The pro-Beaker (KU) leaning papers were the worst, from what I recall, and that semi-retired idiot named Chuck Woodling took the occasion of Wayman's death to dredge up a one-sided account of the '84 game in the Phog. Even some KU fans in the Lawrence area thought that was out of line.

The book that listed those players, which I believe came from Sports Illustrated, would have been on my Christmas wish list in a heartbeat. Since they screwed up that badly, I refused to consider getting one.

It's also a shame that Wayman's good career stats in the NBA were forgotten by those who should know better. He had a nice NBA career; just played on a bunch of lousy teams in the pros.

Any "best college players of all time" list that fails to include Wayman is a joke, pure and simple.

Anyone that thought Tubbs was a "mediocre" coach should be added on that joke list, as well.

 

[DenverSooner]

I think it may have been a bit more regional than national. Wayman was in the running for player of the year but lost to Michael Jordan (if I recall correctly). He was also an All American as a freshman. Both of those things require national recognition.

I do agree that Tubbs got a raw deal but even OU fans say stupid things like he didn't coach defense. The entire system was based on defense but all many fans could see was the easy fast break points scored from the pressure defense. Tubbs' best teams played very good defense they just did it differently than most teams.

 

[NickZepp]

It's pretty simple if Wayman played at Kansas he would be on everone's top 3 college players of all time list. Nothing against Kansas but players from bigger schools get more mention. Especially in lists of all time greats.

Danny Manning was a great player in the same era as Tisdale. His best year 24.3 points and 9 rebounds wasn't as good as Tisdale's average 25.6 points 10.1 rebounds. But this isn't a Kansas conspiracy. People now look better upon the college careers of Christian Laettner, Michael Jordan(who is the best NBA player ever, college stats aren't even close to Tisdale's) Ralph Sampson gets more mention as an all time great college player than Tisdale. And if you look at the numbers you can't justify this.

 

[WaymanFan]

I think it may have been a bit more regional than national. Wayman was in the running for player of the year but lost to Michael Jordan (if I recall correctly). He was also an All American as a freshman. Both of those things require national recognition.

As a sophomore, he was runner-up National POY to Jordan, and as a junior Wayman was runner-up to Patrick Ewing. However, being the first freshman to be a first-team AP All-American was his greatest college feat. It wasn't so much that he was the first, but people cannot comprehend the competition he had.

For those who weren't around or don't remember 1983, here is a sampling of who was playing college basketball that year - Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Chris Mullins, Ralph Sampson, Rodney McCray, Sam Perkins, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Brad Daugherty, Byron Scott, and Steve Stipanovich. Again, that's just a sampling.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

And of course, the papers in the Big 8 region took their cues from the Kansas City Star, which dumped on OU and labeled us an outlaw program. The OU teams of that era were just a little too flashy and successful for their staid, "a football school can't be good at hoops" attitudes in the KC area. The pro-Beaker (KU) leaning papers were the worst, from what I recall, and that semi-retired idiot named Chuck Woodling took the occasion of Wayman's death to dredge up a one-sided account of the '84 game in the Phog. Even some KU fans in the Lawrence area thought that was out of line.

It's hard to explain the way the old Big 8 was to people not around then. KU and KSU were kings because, for one, they had nice, big fieldhouses. It was easy to wow kids(pre ESPN, internet, etc) with a place like Ahearn and Allen compared to what the rest of the league was playing in. Add in MU a little later and then you had the basketball equivalent of the Burmuda Triangle. People in this area thought basketball was theirs and theirs alone. Ted Owens, Jack Hartman, and Norm played for the most part part a walk it up and when having a lead(pre shot clock) four corners type of barn ball. Anyone old enough to have gone to the old Holiday Tourneys in KC can remember some of the worst homering you were ever going to see. You couldn;t discuss football with the fans because the cry was always "wait until basketball". There was a little ripple when we won when I was there with Bliss but nothing like once Billy got there. He, along with Johnny Orr, brought an uptempo, in your face, 90 foot game that just absolutely drove the people around here nuts. Here was this renegade coach, with these colorful players, trampling all over their birthright. Toss in papers like the above mentioned KU Star and the flames were fanned on a daily basis. And of course cutting down the nets didn't help much but I loved it.

Luckily Waymon didn't go to KU. I'd hate to think of myself disliking him. Danny Manning was hard enough to hate. I always felt that when he was there we were always snake bit once the tourney got here. Add in the fact that teams like MU(with Stipo and Sunvold) practicallt assaulted him in the low post(and got away with it) and it became harder and harder for us. Think if he was playing down with the 24/7, music video highlights that pass for sports coverage. How big would he be? And although Nick cites the numbers Wayman was so much more than that. First of all his character was second to none. And his overall ability on the floor was stunning(grainy video doesn't do him justice). His rebounding and defense were superb(as we found out on the Olympic team) and I don't think I've ever seen someone play on a pogo stick like he did. And this was all as an undersized center. Today he'd probably be playing on the wing, slashing and cutting and basically being unstoppable.

I don't worry too much about some of these lists and whatever. Listen to people that count - Knight, Vitale, Bilas among many. Listen to them and you can see just how special he was. I hope everyone has seen that special on him that has run on NBATV. You see people like Perkins and Jordan(who does he ever praise besides himself?) and AC Green just going on and on about him.

 

[DenverSooner]

Today he'd probably be playing on the wing, slashing and cutting and basically being unstoppable.

No he wouldn't. He would be a PF or a Center today just like he was in the early 80s. He would be even better today because kids lack fundamentals today (in college) because kids lack fundamentals and go pro early. Anyone that moved Waymen to the three point line is a fool when he scores at will inside the 3 point line.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Maybe when I say wing I'm mistaken. I don't always have the right terms. I mean he'd be away from the basket more than he was. I realize that he would do very well inside but I also think they would utilize his ability from more than eight feet and in. There's no reason he couldn't hit a 15 footer.

 

[oSuJeff97]

It's pretty simple if Wayman played at Kansas he would be on everone's top 3 college players of all time list. Nothing against Kansas but players from bigger schools get more mention. Especially in lists of all time greats.

Danny Manning was a great player in the same era as Tisdale. His best year 24.3 points and 9 rebounds wasn't as good as Tisdale's average 25.6 points 10.1 rebounds. But this isn't a Kansas conspiracy. People now look better upon the college careers of Christian Laettner, Michael Jordan(who is the best NBA player ever, college stats aren't even close to Tisdale's) Ralph Sampson gets more mention as an all time great college player than Tisdale. And if you look at the numbers you can't justify this.

Well, I think that like it or not, Tisdale doesn't get as much national run because his NBA career just wasn't that remarkable.

Some of the other players that are always mentioned in the "all-time great" college players like MJ, Bird, Magic, Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, etc., all had stand-out NBA careers as well.

Danny Manning gets the love because he led Kansas to an improbable title. Same with Chrisitan Laettner. (Not the improbable part, but he did win what's considered the greatest college game of all time and led Duke to two titles.)

Had OU won it all during Tisdale's time, he would probably given a lot more credit.

 

[NickZepp]

What about Ralph Sampson? It's not like he had a great NBA career. And also it's not like Wayman had a bad NBA career either. He scored over 10k points in his careers and was the best player on some bad Kings teams for about 3 or 4 years.

 

[DenverSooner]

Well, I think that like it or not, Tisdale doesn't get as much national run because his NBA career just wasn't that remarkable.

It was better than people think. He averaged 15 points a game over 12 seasons. Very few guys play 12 seasons. He averaged over 20 ppg in a three year span. The average NBA career is pretty short. I think it is around 4 years. In my opinion, what hurts him the most is he was only in the playoffs 4 times and only made it out of the first round 1 time.

The only OU or OSU player to score more in the NBA was Mookie Blaylock.

 

[oSuJeff97]

It was better than people think. He averaged 15 points a game over 12 seasons. Very few guys play 12 seasons. He averaged over 20 ppg in a three year span. The average NBA career is pretty short. I think it is around 4 years. In my opinion, what hurts him the most is he was only in the playoffs 4 times and only made it out of the first round 1 time.

The only OU or OSU player to score more in the NBA was Mookie Blaylock.

I agree that he had a good career... certainly better than most players.

But he's not in the same neighborhood of those guys that I mentioned. The guys that are generally talked about when national media types talk about the best college basketball players of all time.

And just to be clear... I think Wayman does belong on that "best college players of all time" list.

I'm just saying that national media types probably ignore him because he only had a good (not great) NBA career and he never won a title in college.

 

[NMSooner'80]

Back to part of my original point - the choice of Alford over Tisdale. That remains a true :facepalm :facepalm moment. Tisdale's pro career was also better than Alford's (although he did have a pretty good coaching moment today in ABQ vs. UNLV).

There's also an irony that some "national writer" at SI (whoever did the list, or more than one of them) probably went with Alford just because of some odd loyalty to Bob Knight. Knight has done nothing but trash writers for the better part of 40 years. And they reward him?? :facepalm

Oh, and that was a good call by KC about the old preseason Big 8 tourney. I hated that garbage event - and it didn't help that OU never played well in it. Tubbs never had to deal with it, luckily enough. It ended after the '78-79 season. And I'm sure fans of the "Big 3" (the old axis of evil known as KU, KSU and Mizzou; although most of us would cut the evil label off of KSU and Mizzou now) were pretty put out with it, because they lost such a true homecourt advantage against the other five teams.

 

[KCRuf/Nek]

Oh, and that was a good call by KC about the old preseason Big 8 tourney. I hated that garbage event - and it didn't help that OU never played well in it. Tubbs never had to deal with it, luckily enough. It ended after the '78-79 season. And I'm sure fans of the "Big 3" (the old axis of evil known as KU, KSU and Mizzou; although most of us would cut the evil label off of KSU and Mizzou now) were pretty put out with it, because they lost such a true homecourt advantage against the other five teams.

I still lump them all together. Old wounds heal slowly. The worst games were at the old Muni. When we had Adams and couldn't get the ball up the floor the refs had a field day. Hacks, bumps, travels. It was awful.

 

[Krugerfan52]

I totally agree about Wayman being underrated as a college player. He had a solid NBA career, but there are obviously hundreds of guys out there that had better NBA careers.

I think people just have way to tough of a time seperating the two. Although they seem to always remember Christian Leightner and I think Wayman was a better player than him. Give Wayman Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley and he's probably have won a NCAA title or two himself. Heck, he almost did anyway.

If you go just on how good a player they were in the NCAA, I think Wayman is easily in the top 10 of all time. Not careers, not titles, just how unstoppable they were.

 

[Krugerfan52]

You know, if you take Walton off that UCLA team, they are still great. I think they beat OU by like 40 the next year when Walton was in the NBA.

If you take Leighner off that Duke team you still have Hurley, Grant Hill, Thomas Hill and coach K. They probably still go deep in the NCAA tourney.

You take Jordan off UNC, Kenny Smith, James Worthy and Sam Perkins still probably go to the final 4.

You take Wayman off OU those 3 year and OU basketball history would look a lot different.

 

[NMSooner'80]

I still lump them all together. Old wounds heal slowly. The worst games were at the old Muni. When we had Adams and couldn't get the ball up the floor the refs had a field day. Hacks, bumps, travels. It was awful.

It was fun to root against the "Big 3" back in the day, but especially KU. And, if you have a copy of the 1979 "Sooner" yearbook, they referenced the "Big 3" and how shocking it was to people that OU won the title in '79, and not part of that original Axis of Evil.

It is a shame, though, that our teams in the early 80's were so underappreciated on a regional basis. The "Big 3" loving media sure didn't like it that OU was good. And sadly enough, whenever they tried to spread their lies about how thuggy our team was, even some OU fans started to believe it. One of my brother's buds from the KC area (a transfer to OU from Rockhurst, I believe) always parroted the KC Star party-line about all the "no class things" that Tubbs and OU did. Usually that amounted to just not being reverent enough to Stewart, Owens/Brown and Hartman, I'm sure....

 

[badger]

Revisionist history names current teams and current players as "best ever" or "worst ever" on a regular basis.

It's like telling history "what have you done for me lately" and having history look flabbergasted back at you and exclaim "I'm HISTORY! There's nothing LATELY about me!"

 

[Dr Sleep]

I think it may have been a bit more regional than national. Wayman was in the running for player of the year but lost to Michael Jordan (if I recall correctly). He was also an All American as a freshman. Both of those things require national recognition.

I do agree that Tubbs got a raw deal but even OU fans say stupid things like he didn't coach defense. The entire system was based on defense but all many fans could see was the easy fast break points scored from the pressure defense. Tubbs' best teams played very good defense they just did it differently than most teams.

+1

 

[Big Old Booger]

You know, if you take Walton off that UCLA team, they are still great. I think they beat OU by like 40 the next year when Walton was in the NBA.

If you take Leighner off that Duke team you still have Hurley, Grant Hill, Thomas Hill and coach K. They probably still go deep in the NCAA tourney.

You take Jordan off UNC, Kenny Smith, James Worthy and Sam Perkins still probably go to the final 4.

You take Wayman off OU those 3 year and OU basketball history would look a lot different.

Kenny Smith wasn't on that team. His first season at UNC was 83/84. The team with Worthy, Jordan and Perkins that won the NC was 1981/82.