What is our upside for this season?

[jmizzy4ou]

Off the top of my head, a list of ELITE DEFENDERS, not considered very quick: Larry Bird, Dennis Johnson, Bruce Bowen, Michael Cooper, Kendrick Perkins, Kurt Rambis, Ed Najera, Kobe Bryant, Ron Artest......

80% of defense is learning technique, and understanding help principals. Look at the history of the tourney because it is full of Cinderella stories who locked down an elite scoring team with a one night team help defense concept. Villanova comes to mind.

Fitz will never be a quick guy, and neither will Pledger. Doesn't mean they can't defend, just means they have to be put in the right positions to defend, and excel at help defense. Bird was the best help defender, and he was one of the toughest defenders, with little to no elite level physical tools. Pledgers defense noticebly improved in the last 2 yrs, and it was just more effort on his part. Nothing to do with speed, he just made more effort, and understood defense better. He will continue to improve. Many of those guys NEVER defended in high school, and are learning to play defense in college.

If being quick and fast was the answer to defense, Iverson would have been the best on ball PG defender. He was terrible!!!! Even when he tried, he was terrible.

 

[WTSooner]

Not just that jmizzy, but I think Kelvin had a lot of guys there weren't very quick, athletic, or in some cases even big/long, that he turned into great team defense guys.

Heskett. Stone. Avila. Kelly Newton after his knee surgery. Quannas White wasn't fast or overly quick. The list goes on and on. Like you said above, playing good TEAM defense is about a lot more than individual talents. I'm not saying we are going to be a great defensive team, but having a bench that will allow our starters to rest some, or to get pulled during crucial moments when the matchups are bad, will help our team defense as much as anything. I'm excited about getting more athletic over the next couple of years as well, but I think this collection of guys that we have an play adequate defense. Let's see what they look like after another full year with LK and his staff.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Not just that jmizzy, but I think Kelvin had a lot of guys there weren't very quick, athletic, or in some cases even big/long, that he turned into great team defense guys.

Heskett. Stone. Avila. Kelly Newton after his knee surgery. Quannas White wasn't fast or overly quick. The list goes on and on. Like you said above, playing good TEAM defense is about a lot more than individual talents. I'm not saying we are going to be a great defensive team, but having a bench that will allow our starters to rest some, or to get pulled during crucial moments when the matchups are bad, will help our team defense as much as anything. I'm excited about getting more athletic over the next couple of years as well, but I think this collection of guys that we have an play adequate defense. Let's see what they look like after another full year with LK and his staff.

:clap:clap:clap


Very good points. KS was a master at teaching guys defense. It started with toughness, and then they learned team help concepts. I agree LK is and will continue to get better defense from our guys.

I remember listening to Kelvin on the radio some years ago. He was asked how he gets his guys to defend so well, with average athleticism. He responded, each guy must take it personal when an opponent is trying to score on them, and then the team must take it personal as a group.

I could picture KS in someone's face because he chose to casually approach defending. Everyone knew they wouldn't play if they didn't have the max effort on defense. Pledger for one became a better defender because LK held him accountable for his defensive efforts. I don't believe JC ever held him to a high standard when it came to defensive effort.

 

[garyeb2]

Please, excuse me from this discusion if anyone of you think that listing the exceptions to the rule is a valid argument. Being limited athletically and slow is not an asset when playing defense. It is a liability. It has always been a liability. It will always been a liability. Defense is played with the feet.

I guess that people can hope and wish that that last years worst defenders will somehow magicaly become adequate defenders. But, they won't. They just won't. They lack the required first step quickness and lateral speed to do the things Kruger needs defenders to do.

You guys that live and die with your stats seem to just want to gloss over the sterling stats of last years defense. Statisticaly, they were one of the two worst in the conference in virtually every measurement. They are not on the cusp of being a good enough defense. They aren't close. Marginal improvement won't get it done.

No, Big Time I didn't answer your question. I'm just tired of auguing about Pledger. I will never ever understand why so many posters are so willing to overlook his shortcomings and get their little feelings hurt so bad when they are pointed out. I've watched him play for three years and I doubt that that anything happens in year four to change my mind. His supporters are simularly locked down.

So, now to your answer. But, I'm not going to argue about it. If Cousins or Heild are better defenders than Pledger, I would want them to start and play 25 min. They are both scorers and won't get shut out. Let Pledger slip in, set a couple of screens, get some production, and then get him out of there before he kills you on the other end. Same with Fitz and Bennet or M'Baye if that is the way the rotation works out.

I'm an OU fan. I'm sticking with the University and the Basketball Program come hell or high water. As for the players that come thru the program. I have great appreciation, respect, and admiration for those that play with the kind of heart, determination, and skill that contributes to winning efforts.

Capel coudn't win with the bunch that was on the floor last year. And neither could Kruger. My Grand Dad, years ago, passed along a valueable nugget of wisdom. "If you look up and find yourself riding a dead horse, dismount."

 

[WTSooner]

According to Ken Pomeroy, using an adjusted defensive efficiency stat that measures points allowed per 100 possessions, here is how the Big 12 looked last year:

KU - #4
KSU - #21
Baylor - #40
Texas - #44
aTm - #52
ISU - #57
OU - #91
OSU - #107
Mizzou - #115
TT - #149

And just to show that OU wasn't far off from playing an acceptable level of defense, Duke was rated #70, and won 27 regular season games.

I think our bigger problem was actually on offense. Big 12 ratings for offensive efficiency last year:

Mizzou - #1
Baylor - #10
KU - #19
ISU - #23
Texas - #31
KSU - #53
OSU - #89
OU - #127
aTm - #182
TT - #296

This is what killed us. We weren't very efficient on the offense end of the floor.

 

[BigTime]

Gary,

Are you posting what you want to happen, or predicting what Coach Kruger will do? Your earlier post seemed to suggest the latter while your latest retort leads me to believe the former.

In my opinion, most coaches do not play incoming freshmen more than experienced starters unless those freshmen are elite or the returning starters are inadequate. I don't think either exception is the case here. If it were Carl Blair returning or if Marcus Smart were coming in then I may be inclined to agree with you on what Lon may do.

Some folks are setting bar way too high on these incoming freshmen if they honestly believe that Coach Kruger is going to play Buddy Heild 25 mpg and Pledger 15. That is just crazy talk.

If that is the case, then we are going back to the elite 8....

 

[BigTime]

According to Ken Pomeroy, using an adjusted defensive efficiency stat that measures points allowed per 100 possessions, here is how the Big 12 looked last year:

KU - #4
KSU - #21
Baylor - #40
Texas - #44
aTm - #52
ISU - #57
OU - #91
OSU - #107
Mizzou - #115
TT - #149

And just to show that OU wasn't far off from playing an acceptable level of defense, Duke was rated #70, and won 27 regular season games.

I think our bigger problem was actually on offense. Big 12 ratings for offensive efficiency last year:

Mizzou - #1
Baylor - #10
KU - #19
ISU - #23
Texas - #31
KSU - #53
OSU - #89
OU - #127
aTm - #182
TT - #296

This is what killed us. We weren't very efficient on the offense end of the floor.

I'd like to see what it was in the first half of games. We simply ran out of gas down the stretch against most of the Big 12 team's due to lack of quality depth.

I'm excited about the defensive improvement that I expect to see this season with better depth and more experience.

 

[WTSooner]

I'd like to see what it was in the first half of games. We simply ran out of gas down the stretch against most of the Big 12 team's due to lack of quality depth.

I'm excited about the defensive improvement that I expect to see this season with better depth and more experience.

Agreed. That would be interesting. I'm thinking about signing up for his one year membership, in order to get access to all the stats that he offers. If I do, I'll see if he has it broken down by half. Doubtful, but you never know.

 

[SuperHoops]

I'd like to see what it was in the first half of games. We simply ran out of gas down the stretch against most of the Big 12 team's due to lack of quality depth.

I'm excited about the defensive improvement that I expect to see this season with better depth and more experience.

There were quite a few games that were really tight at halftime which wound up being blowouts at the end.

 

[DenverSooner]

I'd like to see what it was in the first half of games. We simply ran out of gas down the stretch against most of the Big 12 team's due to lack of quality depth.

I'm excited about the defensive improvement that I expect to see this season with better depth and more experience.

That is a great point and makes me even more excited for this season. The addition of three backcourt players and M'Baye should make a big difference in depth and hopefully prevent those second half melt downs. I bet there were 3 or 4 of those in conference play last year.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Gary,

I usually stay away from the Pledger debate with you, because I have seen at least 5 credible basketball minds debate him with you, with no ground gained.

Not sure what led you to be so down on the kid, but you post as if you have seen nothing he can do to help at OU. Pledger has improved each yr, with his greatest improvement coming last yr under LK. Like Big Time said, you and a few others seem to be setting yourself up for a big disappointment, if you believe any of the incoming frosh will take major minutes from Pledger. Like it or not, he will be one of our leaders on the court this yr.
Expecting 1st yr guys to come in and play starters minutes in the Big 12, means we are probably in trouble, moreso than those guys all being that good. LK will need to establish trust with those guys, before any of them sees substantial minutes. He is too good of a coach, and too experienced to throw young players in the fire, when there is no need to. Those guys will come along and contribute, but they won't be planting Pledger on the end of the bench, as you desire them to, IMO.

I could make you a nice long list of supporting players under Tubbs and KS, who did less than Pledger, but contributed to a very solid team. No one here expects Pledger to be a first round pick or anything, but the guy has shown he is a very good shooter, who stretches defenses, and makes opposing coaches prepare for the THREAT of the 3 ball.

With more athletic guys around him who can create their own shot, and can help him get his shot, he could be a very valuable weapon in the Big 12 this yr. Look over any current NBA roster, and you will find non athletic guys who have made a career simply because they do something many can't do anymore, and that is shoot the ball from distance, and make free throws.

Sometimes reading your comments about Pledger, if I had not watched the kid myself, would make mme think he has no business at a D-1 school, and maybe not even an NAIA school. Pledger is a D-1 player, and there are other programs he would start for, and be a scoring option because of his ability to shoot the ball and stretch defenses. Last yr he also showed improvement on his ability to pass, and to put the ball on the floor in certain situations.

 

[garyeb2]

Gary,

Are you posting what you want to happen, or predicting what Coach Kruger will do? Your earlier post seemed to suggest the latter while your latest retort leads me to believe the former.

In my opinion, most coaches do not play incoming freshmen more than experienced starters unless those freshmen are elite or the returning starters are inadequate. I don't think either exception is the case here. If it were Carl Blair returning or if Marcus Smart were coming in then I may be inclined to agree with you on what Lon may do.

Some folks are setting bar way too high on these incoming freshmen if they honestly believe that Coach Kruger is going to play Buddy Heild 25 mpg and Pledger 15. That is just crazy talk.

If that is the case, then we are going back to the elite 8....

No, I'm not predicting. I don't deal in possibilities. I deal in probabilities. I don't know how much scoring or defensive ability Cousins or Heild will bring as freshmen.

I agree 100% that the bar is set way too high. But, it is the bar that the freshman need to hurdle to get playing time or starts.

And for the stats boys. It doesn't matter if OU had the 10th best ranked defense in the country last year. If 1 thru 9 were Big 12 teams, OU is screwed. I hate to have to keep pointing this out. But, the overiding stat is 5-13. Results either validate or invalidated the stats.

Here is an example. This lesson was learned by ground forces in Viet Nam. "If the map doesn't match the ground, the map is wrong."

 

[BigTime]

No, I'm not predicting. I don't deal in possibilities. I deal in probabilities. I don't know how much scoring or defensive ability Cousins or Heild will bring as freshmen.

I agree 100% that the bar is set way too high. But, it is the bar that the freshman need to hurdle to get playing time or starts.

And for the stats boys. It doesn't matter if OU had the 10th best ranked defense in the country last year. If 1 thru 9 were Big 12 teams, OU is screwed. I hate to have to keep pointing this out. But, the overiding stat is 5-13. Results either validate or invalidated the stats.

Here is an example. This lesson was learned by ground forces in Viet Nam. "If the map doesn't match the ground, the map is wrong."

Probabilities? You really believe what you've said in this thread?

I will be sure to bring it up at the end the year when Pledger averages more than 15 minutes per game and OU has more success than last year (I'm predicting an 8 seed), and you can admit that your "probabilities" were wrong.

 

[campbest]

Agreed. That would be interesting. I'm thinking about signing up for his one year membership, in order to get access to all the stats that he offers. If I do, I'll see if he has it broken down by half. Doubtful, but you never know.

It is worth it, his tempo-free stats are great.

 

[garyeb2]

Gary,

I usually stay away from the Pledger debate with you, because I have seen at least 5 credible basketball minds debate him with you, with no ground gained.

Not sure what led you to be so down on the kid, but you post as if you have seen nothing he can do to help at OU. Pledger has improved each yr, with his greatest improvement coming last yr under LK. Like Big Time said, you and a few others seem to be setting yourself up for a big disappointment, if you believe any of the incoming frosh will take major minutes from Pledger. Like it or not, he will be one of our leaders on the court this yr.
Expecting 1st yr guys to come in and play starters minutes in the Big 12, means we are probably in trouble, moreso than those guys all being that good. LK will need to establish trust with those guys, before any of them sees substantial minutes. He is too good of a coach, and too experienced to throw young players in the fire, when there is no need to. Those guys will come along and contribute, but they won't be planting Pledger on the end of the bench, as you desire them to, IMO.

I could make you a nice long list of supporting players under Tubbs and KS, who did less than Pledger, but contributed to a very solid team. No one here expects Pledger to be a first round pick or anything, but the guy has shown he is a very good shooter, who stretches defenses, and makes opposing coaches prepare for the THREAT of the 3 ball.

With more athletic guys around him who can create their own shot, and can help him get his shot, he could be a very valuable weapon in the Big 12 this yr. Look over any current NBA roster, and you will find non athletic guys who have made a career simply because they do something many can't do anymore, and that is shoot the ball from distance, and make free throws.

Sometimes reading your comments about Pledger, if I had not watched the kid myself, would make mme think he has no business at a D-1 school, and maybe not even an NAIA school. Pledger is a D-1 player, and there are other programs he would start for, and be a scoring option because of his ability to shoot the ball and stretch defenses. Last yr he also showed improvement on his ability to pass, and to put the ball on the floor in certain situations.

Since you seem to want to have a civil discussion, I'll respond. I think some ground has been gained. When I started down this road, Pledger was being compared to Hollis and every other really good one that has come thru the program. Greatness was bestowed and predicted for him.

You and others seem to now have a more reasonable view of him. The inferences that you drew from what I've said are yours. I'm not responsible for that.

And I know that this may come as a surprise to many. But, this message board is only one of several communities of OU basketball fans. People have been arranging themselves into communities since the beginning of civilization. It is quite common for like minded people to so organise themselves. The majority opinion within this community is sometimes the minority opinion in other communities.

I have some ties to the community and those ties allow me to interact with lifelong season ticket holders or tip in club members or ex OU coaches or fans in general. It is not uncommon for people outside of this community to be of the opinion that Osby is the only player from last years team good enough to be a player on a good OU team.

There may be some great basketball minds in this community. But, there is no reason to weight those opinions any higher than what I know to be knowledgeable basketball thinkers in a different community.

Sure Pledger has improved every year. The last 4/5 games last season were, I thought, the best of his time here. His scoring was down. But, he had a couple of good rebounding games and his effort looked to have ticked up. I actually saw him bounce the ball with his left hand. He did it twice. He took a step to the left at hit two open shots. The stunned defended just stood there frozen. It was a move he hadn't seen or expected and he didn't know what to do.

But, don't try to convince me Pledger is anything more than a defensive liability. I know people get tired of hearing this. But, if they are, make whatever effort that it takes to get to the practice gym and see for yourself. Until then, trying to tell me that I don't know what I see is a waste of time. How many days in a row does it take watching players like Blair punk him one on one does it take to figure that out. He has never defended at a Big 12 level.

Pledger is a good shooter and I'm sure that Kruger will use him in a way that makes the team better. I have said this before and I'm sticking to it. If you have a basketball team that has Pedger as the best scoring option and Fitz is the man in the middle, you have a team that is in alot of trouble. While both Pledger and Fitz have usefull skills, that statement is accurate.

 

[garyeb2]

Probabilities? You really believe what you've said in this thread?

I will be sure to bring it up at the end the year when Pledger averages more than 15 minutes per game and OU has more success than last year (I'm predicting an 8 seed), and you can admit that your "probabilities" were wrong.

Don't get testy, you were doing so good. I have said OU would be better next year.

I've got to get a haircut,go to the store, and gas station, and then put some steaks on the grill. So, I don't have time to teach this class today. But, probabilities are neither right or wrong. They are just probabilites.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

Since you seem to want to have a civil discussion, I'll respond. I think some ground has been gained. When I started down this road, Pledger was being compared to Hollis and every other really good one that has come thru the program. Greatness was bestowed and predicted for him.

You and others seem to now have a more reasonable view of him. The inferences that you drew from what I've said are yours. I'm not responsible for that.

And I know that this may come as a surprise to many. But, this message board is only one of several communities of OU basketball fans. People have been arranging themselves into communities since the beginning of civilization. It is quite common for like minded people to so organise themselves. The majority opinion within this community is sometimes the minority opinion in other communities.

I have some ties to the community and those ties allow me to interact with lifelong season ticket holders or tip in club members or ex OU coaches or fans in general. It is not uncommon for people outside of this community to be of the opinion that Osby is the only player from last years team good enough to be a player on a good OU team.

There may be some great basketball minds in this community. But, there is no reason to weight those opinions any higher than what I know to be knowledgeable basketball thinkers in a different community.

Sure Pledger has improved every year. The last 4/5 games last season were, I thought, the best of his time here. His scoring was down. But, he had a couple of good rebounding games and his effort looked to have ticked up. I actually saw him bounce the ball with his left hand. He did it twice. He took a step to the left at hit two open shots. The stunned defended just stood there frozen. It was a move he hadn't seen or expected and he didn't know what to do.

But, don't try to convince me Pledger is anything more than a defensive liability. I know people get tired of hearing this. But, if they are, make whatever effort that it takes to get to the practice gym and see for yourself. Until then, trying to tell me that I don't know what I see is a waste of time. How many days in a row does it take watching players like Blair punk him one on one does it take to figure that out. He has never defended at a Big 12 level.

Pledger is a good shooter and I'm sure that Kruger will use him in a way that makes the team better. I have said this before and I'm sticking to it. If you have a basketball team that has Pedger as the best scoring option and Fitz is the man in the middle, you have a team that is in alot of trouble. While both Pledger and Fitz have usefull skills, that statement is accurate.

Fair enough. The way you explained that, I can agree with alot of what you said. Thanks for the response.

 

[BigTime]

Gary,

I put probabilities in quotes for a reason. I know what the word means, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone that agrees with the two or three "probabilities" you've mentioned in this thread.

Enjoy your errands and I look forward to you teaching me later, Socrates.

 

[garyeb2]

I was a tad tacky in my response I shouldn't have done that.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Nothing different from the first and last games?

HUGE differences in my opinion. The first 3-4 games we pressured like crazy. Hard pressure on the ball. We pressed A LOT. We trapped in the halfcourt. And the board went nuts thinking we would do that all year. I said it back then, it was a temporary thing against weaker competition. By the end of the season, we only pressed a very small amount, and only when we had fallen behind. No zone early in the season, a little bit more later in the season.

I think a lot of the "flaring" from posts was due to switching just about every screen, which I'm not a big fan of. I'm guessing some of that had to do with our guys not being able to get through screens, though at times, they seemed fine doing just that.

I see your point about Fitz, I guess I just don't think it was a widespread problem.

I'll respectfully disagree, and hopefully my tone isn't one that is saying that CLK did the wrong thing when in fact it is intended as the opposite. While I think we win a few more games last season with a junk defense that fit the players talents, I prefer the stability that CLK brought and never deviated from.

Also, while I think that any coach wants to win games, I truly believe that last season was about teaching and building for this season and going forward. I love Kelvin and I'd be willing to bet that he would have had last seasons team in contention for an NCAA berth becuase we'd be lock down on defense, but I like what CLK is bringing to the table just as much.