At this point Kruger gets a D at best.

Big Old Booger said:
Looking at it another way, and not trying to argue but somebody has to get the assists, right?

What did Blair average for assists last year? He wasn't bad, but his turnovers were mind boggling. Grooms doesn't turn it over, but he is very one dimensional. He is no threat offensively.

So, he's not a bad player, but I don't know of any Big 12 teams I have watched this season on which he would start. Maybe Tech, but that Willis kid looked better than Grooms to me.
Click to expand...

IMO Grooms is a great big 12 PG....problem is he doesn't score like you said and we need scoring. If we had more scorers on the team he would be great.
 
SoonerBounce13 said:
IMO Grooms is a great big 12 PG....problem is he doesn't score like you said and we need scoring. If we had more scorers on the team he would be great.
Click to expand...

I think great is an overstatement because, IMO, to be a great PG, you need to be able to hit the open jumper when teams sag. Remember Quannis White? He could hit the open jumper and so that made him great in addition to his abilities to handle and distribute the ball, which I agree Grooms is pretty good at those 2 facets, and he's not bad defensively (he's pretty good).

Gottlieb was not capable of hitting the open jumper and many considered him to be a great PG. Seems like his assists numbers were quite a bit higher than Grooms, but I may be wrong. I can remember him having some games with a high number of assists (more than 15). And, to your point, he played on a good team.

If we had a good team with more talent, Grooms deficiencies would be masked, that is for sure.
 
Big Old Booger said:
Do you know this for a fact?

Wow, if so. Just wow.
Click to expand...

Yes, I went to most practices up until about 2 games into the regular season. I have a great deal of appreciation for how far Kruger has brought these kids. Early on they were terrible. Just terrible. They were so unsound at a fundemental level that Kruger had to teach them what foot to put infront of other while playing defense. It was like these Capel holdovers had done nothing their entire basketball lives except play streetball.
 
Ya know, this team kind of reminds me of those ****ty K-State, Tech, Nebraska, etc teams from the late 90's and early 2000's.

They have a couple of guys (Osby, Fitz, Pledger) that are pretty good but not a full roster, and the good guys they have all have serious flaws in their game.

Fitz can score, but cant defend or rebound.

Osby is pretty good at scoring and rebounding, but has mid-major size for a post player.

Pledger is a good shooter, but can get cold and isnt a very good athlete.

Grooms is a good assist guy, but he cant shoot to save his life.

Cameron Clark is an athlete, but isnt very good at shooting or dribbling.

This team doesnt have any all-around good players. They all have some serious flaw in their game, and when all those are combined they arent good enough to beat good teams or win consistently. They will win a few games here and there, but cant put anything serious together.

If you think back to some good OU teams, they had guys who were all-around good players.

Taj Gray: Great athlete, good size, good scorer, good rebounder, good defender.
Kevin Bookout: Good athlete, great size, good scorer, good rebounder, good defender.
Terrell Everett: Good size, good athlete, pretty decent shooter, great slasher, great passer, good defender.
Mike Neal: Great shooter, good defender, good size.
Austin Johnson: Great athlete, great defender, good passer, etc.

I mean, all those guys played on the same team. The team wasnt even that good, they finished 20-9 and 3rd in the Big 12, which sounds fantastic right now but was a pretty average Sampson team.

This OU team doesnt have one guy who would start over the above listed players, and that was on an average team during Sampsons 12 years here.
 
Last edited:
campbest said:
You must have a very very long list of GREAT Big 12 PGs then.
Click to expand...

The last time a sooner averaged more assists was everett and he averaged 4 TOs as well. Before him, I can't think of the last ou player to average over 6 apg

and thats on a ****ty team
 
Kruger is a good coach! He left UNLV in excellent shape and inherited a train wreck in Norman. Give him some time - please! This team has some nice parts, but lacks a "go to" guy (for the record, I am still not convenienced we have D1 talent with a few exceptions - I got ran out the Gym for making that statement earlier this year - but I stand by the statement). It will come, but it the meantime watching this team is like watching my sister at a piano recital, boooringg...........
 
I think Kruger is doing a good job and the kids play hard, the talent is just not there.

OU is way undersized up front and has only one perimeter shooter. Plus, it has no bench. Sounds like a recipe for disaster in the Big 12, imo.

I said after the non-conference season, this was a 3-4 year rebuilding project and other posters laughed.

M'Baye will help next year for sure but the key is those freshman guards. If they aren't really good shooters or LK doesn't find another in the spring, next year's team won't be an NCAA tourney team.
 
OUBig12Champs said:
Kruger is a good coach! He left UNLV in excellent shape and inherited a train wreck in Norman. Give him some time - please! This team has some nice parts, but lacks a "go to" guy (for the record, I am still not convenienced we have D1 talent with a few exceptions - I got ran out the Gym for making that statement earlier this year - but I stand by the statement). It will come, but it the meantime watching this team is like watching my sister at a piano recital, boooringg...........
Click to expand...

you are still wrong on the d1 talent comment

If you say big 12 talent or even major conference talent...ok
But grooms, blair, cam, pledger, osby fitz, and even neal are d1 talent
 
SoonerBounce13 said:
The last time a sooner averaged more assists was everett and he averaged 4 TOs as well. Before him, I can't think of the last ou player to average over 6 apg

and thats on a ****ty team
Click to expand...

Who cares about his assist to TO ratio. He can't shoot, he can't guard, and he has a lot of unforce to's. I'll take Kabongos 13pts and 5tos over Grooms 0pts and 3tos.

Hopefully he spends 3 hrs a day in the gym in the offseason to work on his shot.
 
SoonerBounce13 said:
you are still wrong on the d1 talent comment

If you say big 12 talent or even major conference talent...ok
But grooms, blair, cam, pledger, osby fitz, and even neal are d1 talent
Click to expand...

Blair and Neal are mid-major college players. That leaves five legit D1 players trying to win in the Big 12. Ain't gonna happen.
 
bgrch1350 said:
Who cares about his assist to TO ratio. He can't shoot, he can't guard, and he has a lot of unforce to's. I'll take Kabongos 13pts and 5tos over Grooms 0pts and 3tos.

Hopefully he spends 3 hrs a day in the gym in the offseason to work on his shot.
Click to expand...

i think you are getting him confused with blair. He is not a good shooter but is getting better. He distributes well and rarely has a bad TO.

Who cares about A/TO ratio? Ummm I do as I would hope most bball fans would
 
ABD, your best post ever. I agree with everything you said except for your thoughts on AJ. He was OK, but you definately oversell him. Otherwise, you express my thoughts on each of our current players.

Before the season, the board consensus was mostly that we would be a little over .500 and just generally be improved. What did you think a .500 would look like. We need some players. Heck, just one or two (assuming at least one is a good perimeter player that can shoot the 3) good Big 12 caliber players and we could have an entirely different record.

Every returning player on this team, excluding Clark, is improved from last year. That is a good sign. The team looks organized and has played all but a couple teams every tough and been in the games until the end. Again, this is a good sign. I don't like losing, but I like the direction of the team generally and jus think we need to get out and recruit like mad.

We will be a little better next year, no matter what. All the kids will have a another year under their belt and Mbuye is a good player. Maybe some of the other newcomers will help, but either way, we will be a little better. If we can start to upgrade the talent, in a couple years we could be back to contending.
 
SoonerBounce13 said:
you do realize that mid major is d1 right?
Click to expand...

Of course I do, but there are well over 300 D1 programs so saying that a player that is D1 doesn't mean they are good enough to win in the Big 12.

My point was that Neal and Blair are D1 players but not in the Big 12.
 
sdcloud9 said:
Of course I do, but there are well over 300 D1 programs so saying that a player that is D1 doesn't mean they are good enough to win in the Big 12.

My point was that Neal and Blair are D1 players but not in the Big 12.
Click to expand...

ok...
 
thebigabd said:
No talent, no depth.

Brought to you by Jeff Capel. Guy ran the program into the ground, gonna take a few years to bring it back to life. OU just has to hope that the rise of Baylor, K-State, and Iowa State hasnt pushed the program down to where this kind of thing is normal. This has been normal for the past 3-4 years, but hopefully long term its not the norm.
Click to expand...

I disagree. OU has some talent, they just don't have enough. There is nothing wrong with Osby, Fitzgerald, Pledger, Clark and Grooms. The problem is they don't have enough help and perhaps lack a star player that can be the leader of the team. I truly believe the addition of M'Baye, Hield and Hornbeak will make a big difference for this team. I also think every returning player will improve to some degree with noticeable improvement from Grooms and Osby. When I say this about Grooms and Osby it is not that I think they are playing poorly, I just think having a full year of D-1 experience will make a big difference for these two guys.
 
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