At this point Kruger gets a D at best.

[152219]

They certainly aren't starters on a midmajor team. Neither one is athletic at all. Blair is terrible handling the ball. Neal has no desire to compete on the floor. They would be backups at best.

We have a few guys with decent talent but nobody is outstanding. Everyone of them has at least one serious flaw in their game.

Carl Blair started at a mid major his freshman year

 

[DenverSooner]

Carl Blair started at a mid major his freshman year

Please stop confusing this debate with insignificant things like historical facts. (Very soon you will be told that New Orleans was not a mid major.)

A certain percentage of fans are going to make outrageous statements like OU has no talent. Pledger could score 25 points a game on 60% shooting and his critics would still say he was average at best. Fitzgerald could block out perfectly but not get any more boards and his critics would stil insult him. Osby could average a tripple double (10 points, 10 boards and 10 assists) and people would criticize him.

It is not going to stop unless and until OU starts winning. When OU starts winning again, a small percentage of fans will continue to criticize because OU is not going undefeated and winning the NCAA Tournament. This is why Al Gore invented the internet, so people could complain.

 

[Max Power]

Carl Blair started at a mid major his freshman year

He started at a low major that is now in DII, not a mid major like Davidson, Gonzaga, UNLV, etc.

 

[DenverSooner]

He started at a low major that is now in DII, not a mid major like Davidson, Gonzaga, UNLV, etc.

They were a Sun Belt conference team. I would call that midmajor. The Sun Belt plays D-1 Football. There are only 11 D-1 football conferences counting the independents as a conference. If I counted correctly there are 29 basketball conferences. Personally, I would not define mid-major based solely on success. Rather, I would define it based on the quality of the conference. I have no clue if UNO was competitive in that conference but I think of the Sun Belt, WAC, Mountain West, Conf USA, MAC, Missouri Valley and perhaps a couple of others as mid majors. I would call the SWAC, Southland, Atlantic Sun, Metro Atlantic and perhaps a few others as low majors.

 

[152219]

He started at a low major that is now in DII, not a mid major like Davidson, Gonzaga, UNLV, etc.

Athletic department ran out of money and couldn't support a D1 basketball team. They were in the Sun Belt and not the SWAC. Hell, Tim Floyd had some quality teams when he was their coach (granted, this was quite a few years ago). Point being, Blair started as a freshman at a D1 program and for posters to continue to say that OU doesn't have any players who are D1 starters is dumb. And no, I'm not arguing there is elite level talent on this team, but talent isn't completely lacking like some state.

 

[Max Power]

Athletic department ran out of money and couldn't support a D1 basketball team. They were in the Sun Belt and not the SWAC. Hell, Tim Floyd had some quality teams when he was their coach (granted, this was quite a few years ago). Point being, Blair started as a freshman at a D1 program and for posters to continue to say that OU doesn't have any players who are D1 starters is dumb. And no, I'm not arguing there is elite level talent on this team, but talent isn't completely lacking like some state.

We have D-1 starters yes, that is not the issue, we have very few Big 12 players. I don't see how any one can argue that.

 

[Ham]

To use some simple round numbers (@12 schollys per team):
There are about 4,000 players currently on D-1 scholarship.
About 500 of them play at 'BCS' schools.
About 500 of them play at 'mid-major' schools.
3,000 of them play at low-major schools.

To sum, there is an Elite25% that is considered 'good enough' to play at Duke or Butler or UCLA or Creighton - and all those in between.

75% of "D1" players are not in that group.

I think the consensus is that our Sooners have, inarguably, 3 of those guys, while most would contend 4 (with Clark).

Neal, Blair, Washington and Arent are, at best, borderline mid-major.
So if we just split the difference and say two of them are and two of them aren't part of that Elite25%, then we have a roster half-full of scholarship players (6) that aren't good enough to make a rotation at a decent mid-major. I think that is fair to say.


Hold onto the lead at Cincy...Make one shot at the end of regulation in College Station...Take care of business against Iowa State in Norman...And the team is currently 16-9, 5-8 in conference. Get 3 more wins, at home vs OSU, at home vs A&M and one other...and the team is 19-11, 8-10 in conference and is arguably even a marginal bubble NCAA team, but certainly NIT bound. And that's only isolating 3 games out of the current 25. That's not even revising history for a better performance in Lubbock. Or even Stillwater...I mean, you're going to lose road games. Period. The sky isn't falling...it only seems like it. We just have to write-off this year for what it was always going to be.

It's my understanding that 5 more players are coming in (correct me if I am wrong). Hield, Hornbeak, Henry and Cole (walk-on), to go along with M'Baye (transfer). And in that process, who drops out of the present 9 man rotation?
Arent? Blair? Neal? Washington? M'Baye surely supplants someone. And my guess is one of Hield or Hornbeak gets to play for Blair.

Capel's backcourt stab in the dark - could mean - that Blair, as a senior, rides the pine OUT of the 9-man rotation. Essentially - taking up a scholly and nothing more. And if Washington is bumped by M'Baye...the same. What if one of the H boys coming in as a true freshman even squeezes past Neal. I doubt it, but it's possible. You can't pin this crap on Lon Kruger. He was handed a bad team, added two last-minute guys and both are rotation players - one the starting PG. His last minute desperation is ALREADY proven progress over Capel's similar desperate recruiting. And Capel had the time...and the punch line is - that the desperation in both cases was caused by Capel.

The 1999 football team isn't a good analogy. If the 'rotation' in football is about 50 players then you can literally sign half of your rotation in one year. Look at the quality of Bob's '99 class that would win the NC a year later, with a lot of youth.

In hoops, if an 8 man rotation is a generous standard, then you have 4 to that same analogous 'half'. And Lon only had half (2) of that generous half (4) in terms of open scholarships. It would be as if Stoops could have only signed 12 players in 1999 to be apples to apples. Now, that said, you can affect a hoops squad with less of a slice of that rotation because you could only sign Blake Griffin or Kevin Durant and change the entire dynamic. But the larger point is, short of signing some Super Stud, you can't.

So I guess the only logic I am seeing (to the point in the OP) is - damn you
Lon Kruger for not brining in a one-and-done superfreak on such short notice.

So, yeah. I disagree.

 

[Salt City Sooner]

To use some simple round numbers (@12 schollys per team):
There are about 4,000 players currently on D-1 scholarship.
About 500 of them play at 'BCS' schools.
About 500 of them play at 'mid-major' schools.
3,000 of them play at low-major schools.

To sum, there is an Elite25% that is considered 'good enough' to play at Duke or Butler or UCLA or Creighton - and all those in between.

75% of "D1" players are not in that group.

I think the consensus is that our Sooners have, inarguably, 3 of those guys, while most would contend 4 (with Clark).

Neal, Blair, Washington and Arent are, at best, borderline mid-major.
So if we just split the difference and say two of them are and two of them aren't part of that Elite25%, then we have a roster half-full of scholarship players (6) that aren't good enough to make a rotation at a decent mid-major. I think that is fair to say.


Hold onto the lead at Cincy...Make one shot at the end of regulation in College Station...Take care of business against Iowa State in Norman...And the team is currently 16-9, 5-8 in conference. Get 3 more wins, at home vs OSU, at home vs A&M and one other...and the team is 19-11, 8-10 in conference and is arguably even a marginal bubble NCAA team, but certainly NIT bound. And that's only isolating 3 games out of the current 25. That's not even revising history for a better performance in Lubbock. Or even Stillwater...I mean, you're going to lose road games. Period. The sky isn't falling...it only seems like it. We just have to write-off this year for what it was always going to be.

It's my understanding that 5 more players are coming in (correct me if I am wrong). Hield, Hornbeak, Henry and Cole (walk-on), to go along with M'Baye (transfer). And in that process, who drops out of the present 9 man rotation?
Arent? Blair? Neal? Washington? M'Baye surely supplants someone. And my guess is one of Hield or Hornbeak gets to play for Blair.

Capel's backcourt stab in the dark - could mean - that Blair, as a senior, rides the pine OUT of the 9-man rotation. Essentially - taking up a scholly and nothing more. And if Washington is bumped by M'Baye...the same. What if one of the H boys coming in as a true freshman even squeezes past Neal. I doubt it, but it's possible. You can't pin this crap on Lon Kruger. He was handed a bad team, added two last-minute guys and both are rotation players - one the starting PG. His last minute desperation is ALREADY proven progress over Capel's similar desperate recruiting. And Capel had the time...and the punch line is - that the desperation in both cases was caused by Capel.

The 1999 football team isn't a good analogy. If the 'rotation' in football is about 50 players then you can literally sign half of your rotation in one year. Look at the quality of Bob's '99 class that would win the NC a year later, with a lot of youth.

In hoops, if an 8 man rotation is a generous standard, then you have 4 to that same analogous 'half'. And Lon only had half (2) of that generous half (4) in terms of open scholarships. It would be as if Stoops could have only signed 12 players in 1999 to be apples to apples. Now, that said, you can affect a hoops squad with less of a slice of that rotation because you could only sign Blake Griffin or Kevin Durant and change the entire dynamic. But the larger point is, short of signing some Super Stud, you can't.

So I guess the only logic I am seeing (to the point in the OP) is - damn you
Lon Kruger for not brining in a one-and-done superfreak on such short notice.

So, yeah. I disagree.

Washington is bumped by his own eligibility. He's a Senior.

 

[Dem Coltz]

So I guess the only logic I am seeing (to the point in the OP) is - damn you
Lon Kruger for not brining in a one-and-done superfreak on such short notice.

So, yeah. I disagree.

Ok dude, here is the logic behind the OP (seniorsooner) - this team is almost identical in level of talent and players from last year. If anything, all our key guys have an extra year of Big 12 action. But our results this year have been almost identical to last year. No one disputes LK bought in on a ****ty hand coming here. But if Capel truly was a poor game coach, and LK is awesome, he should have these same players winning games they didn't last year, and playing better consistently on offense and defense. I think the team has played better in spurts, but if we can play mizzouri to a last second shot, and lead kansas at half-time, that doesn't explain the massive failure of Tech, ISU, and several recent conference losses.

We all agree this team lacks the needed talent. But we have seen these guys play well, just not consistently. And they have certainly laid eggs. After 10 months that is no longer on the previous head coach.

 

[WaymanFan]

Ok dude, here is the logic behind the OP (seniorsooner) - this team is almost identical in level of talent and players from last year. If anything, all our key guys have an extra year of Big 12 action. But our results this year have been almost identical to last year. No one disputes LK bought in on a ****ty hand coming here. But if Capel truly was a poor game coach, and LK is awesome, he should have these same players winning games they didn't last year, and playing better consistently on offense and defense. I think the team has played better in spurts, but if we can play mizzouri to a last second shot, and lead kansas at half-time, that doesn't explain the massive failure of Tech, ISU, and several recent conference losses.

We all agree this team lacks the needed talent. But we have seen these guys play well, just not consistently. And they have certainly laid eggs. After 10 months that is no longer on the previous head coach.

This. Nicely worded.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what coming out disorganized and uninspired to start the second half after a 15 minute break has to do with fatigue.

 

[w0lfe]

Capel inherrited PG Walker(SR)(0.5ppg), C Longar(JR)(2.4ppg), SG Johnson(SO)(2.6ppg), PF Griffin(SO)(3.4ppg), SG Godbold(JR)(5.9ppg), PF Carter(SR)(5.4ppg), and SG Neal(SR)(14.8ppg) while
Kruger inherrited C Fitzgerald(JR)(12.3ppg), SG Pledger(JR)(10.3ppg), SF Clark(SO)(9.9ppg), PG Blair(JR)(8.1ppg), SF Neal(SO)(4.2ppg), SG Newell(SO)(2.1ppg), PF Washington(SR)(1.9ppg) and a RS PF OSBY.

And you're telling me that Kruger inherrited a worse team than Capel...give me a break.

Capels team right there would run circles around the guys we have now if you ask me. Capels team had size all over compared to Kruger's

 

[NorthCarolinaSooner]

You bet your ass I did. But Kruger has been handed essentially the same team and is doing essentially the same thing that Capel did. So I go back to my earlier question: is our talent level really so bad that the coach is irrelevant? Would any coach in America finish 13-17 with this team?

First off......Kruger was handed a WORSE team than when Capel left....Cade was a step up from Cam (offensively for sure...and maybe defensively)....he added Sam (who is a better starter than Blair)....he isn't doing exactly the same thing either.....he beat KSU twice...had Mizzou on the ropes....had the team within striking distance of several other teams. In case you forgot...OU wasn't really even competitive last year many times under Capels watch...and he had several YEARS to build the disaster he oversaw. There are several guys on this team that probably wouldn't even be here had Kruger been the coach. Maybe the record is about the same for Kruger because that is close to the ceiling of the team we currently have. Give Kruger a chance to build the program. Heck, the two guards coming in next year will give the team a TON more depth than they have now.....that, in itself, is worth a lot.



Could the record be better right now? YES but is it all Kruger's fault? NO

Let's see how OU looks next year and , particularly, the year after....that will be a true sign.

 

[MsProudSooner]

This. Nicely worded.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what coming out disorganized and uninspired to start the second half after a 15 minute break has to do with fatigue.

As some else said, it's not phsyical fatigue. I think it's a mental fatigue that comes from a lack of confidence. It's as if they come out in the second half expecting something bad to happen and when it does, they are done mentally.

 

[NorthCarolinaSooner]

Ok dude, here is the logic behind the OP (seniorsooner) - this team is almost identical in level of talent and players from last year. If anything, all our key guys have an extra year of Big 12 action. But our results this year have been almost identical to last year. No one disputes LK bought in on a ****ty hand coming here. But if Capel truly was a poor game coach, and LK is awesome, he should have these same players winning games they didn't last year, and playing better consistently on offense and defense. I think the team has played better in spurts, but if we can play mizzouri to a last second shot, and lead kansas at half-time, that doesn't explain the massive failure of Tech, ISU, and several recent conference losses.

We all agree this team lacks the needed talent. But we have seen these guys play well, just not consistently. And they have certainly laid eggs. After 10 months that is no longer on the previous head coach.

Simple.....this team isn't good enough (talent-wise, IQ-wise, etc) to be able to have a bad night and still win games. GOOD teams can have a bad night and still win games on the road vs teams like Tech. Average teams (which we are right now) cannot easily overcome bad nights.

Funny to me is just a few short months ago a LOT of guys on here bashed Pledger for being a bust or being bad and talked bad about Fitz and how unathletic he is.......when we win and they play well everyone wants to sing their praises and when we lose you talk about the TALENT Kruger has and should be winning, etc. You are bi-polar fans. When it is going good it is great....when we struggle (which is easily possible with the lack of depth and lack of true scorers) all of sudden Kruger sucks???

This is an average DI team......what do you want? Overnight miracles? It will take a couple of years to build the talent and depth back up.

 

[garyeb2]

I'm having a hard time understanding what this thread is about. Is it that when results don't meet fan expectations, it is the coaches fault? Couldn't it be that fan expectations just got out of whack?

This team is much better than last years team. They have been competitive most of the time against almost everyone. Last years team lost 15 games by double digits and it could have been more if they hadn't closed the gap alittle against opponents bench after the game was decided. This years team has only lost 7 by double digits so far.

I could never detect that last years team had so much as an inbound play to run. This team has gotten competitive because they are much improved in the half court. They have had lots and lots and lots of successful offensive plays and sets. How do you think Pledger scored so many points?

When we play a Kansas or Missouri close for a half and then lose. That is an improvement. That is good coaching. Those ranked schools have better players. OU just can not keep up down the stretch. That's all.

Capel is the one that rounded this group up. That is on him. Seems like that Kruger has done too good of a job with them. They have shown just enough promise for some to get to imagining that they are capable of more. They are not.

Grooms, a Capel recruit that Kruger came in and locked down, is a good example. I have been a big fan of Grooms. He seems like a great kid and I think he is doing a fine job. And even though he is a big improvement at point guard. To this point, he hasn't shown that he is good enough. I doubt that he could go to any current top 20 team and start. So, how could anyone expect us to beat a top 20 team with a point guard that isn't as good as our theirs.

And the same can be said for Cam, Fitz, and yes even Pledger. Grooms can not score and all the rest have things that they can not do. It is those things that they can not do that would inhibit them from starting at or for better teams.

With good coaching and this group of players, OU has a good chance to be competitive game in and game out. But, a marginal chance of actually beating good teams.

 

[NorthCarolinaSooner]

I'm having a hard time understanding what this thread is about. Is it that when results don't meet fan expectations, it is the coaches fault? Couldn't it be that fan expectations just got out of whack?

This team is much better than last years team. They have been competitive most of the time against almost everyone. Last years team lost 15 games by double digits and it could have been more if they hadn't closed the gap alittle against opponents bench after the game was decided. This years team has only lost 7 by double digits so far.

I could never detect that last years team had so much as an inbound play to run. This team has gotten competitive because they are much improved in the half court. They have had lots and lots and lots of successful offensive plays and sets. How do you think Pledger scored so many points?

When we play a Kansas or Missouri close for a half and then lose. That is an improvement. That is good coaching. Those ranked schools have better players. OU just can not keep up down the stretch. That's all.

Capel is the one that rounded this group up. That is on him. Seems like that Kruger has done too good of a job with them. They have shown just enough promise for some to get to imagining that they are capable of more. They are not.

Grooms, a Capel recruit that Kruger came in and locked down, is a good example. I have been a big fan of Grooms. He seems like a great kid and I think he is doing a fine job. And even though he is a big improvement at point guard. To this point, he hasn't shown that he is good enough. I doubt that he could go to any current top 20 team and start. So, how could anyone expect us to beat a top 20 team with a point guard that isn't as good as our theirs.

And the same can be said for Cam, Fitz, and yes even Pledger. Grooms can not score and all the rest have things that they can not do. It is those things that they can not do that would inhibit them from starting at or for better teams.

With good coaching and this group of players, OU has a good chance to be competitive game in and game out. But, a marginal chance of actually beating good teams.

For once, I actually agree with you Gary.

This is NOT a team that is going to beat a lot of real good teams....they will compete...but they don't have the talent YET to compete at a really high level...and they are just average enough at times where they may lose an occasional game to a Texas Tech......a lot of fans have a really warped sense of how good (or bad) this team actually is.

 

[cowboysooner]

Gary, your last post couldn't be more spot on in my opinion. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I like everything I have seen so far. I think we are going in the right direction. Like everyone else, I could pick at a thing or two. But all in all, I like the direction of the team.

The big issue will be Lon's ability to evaluate and recruit talent. We can't and don't know yet how that will turn out. To be fair, you have to give him a couple years. You don't get in "last minute" on legit players. You have to recruit them for years and build relationships. Don't and can't know, as I'm not an insider with knowledge, but by the sound of it (from this board) he has been working all of the underclassmen of note in OK, TX (dallas) and KS (witchita) hard. This is a perfect plan and perfect geographic recruiting area to concentrate your efforts in (out of town but close enough to give parents a chance to go to games). Now, can he get the kids from this area that he needs to get? Can he determine and evaluate and make the right decisions on who to get? These are the questions that we won't know for a while.

I say be fair, give him 3-4 years. With his contract, he would be here that long if he didn't win a game and played with handicapped walkons.

 

[sdcloud9]

One of the areas where a lack of depth hurts is in practice.

If 10 players are competing every day in practice for playing time, players improve every day. If they don't have to compete they won't. Even though guys are working hard, competing for playing time is different.

Regarding fatigue, basketball is an extremely mental game, players need to be on their game all the time to do the simple things that create wins. I think the fatigue is more mental than physical.

Regarding LK, I think he's doing an excellent job. This team was so much better in the pre-league season because of his coaching. Now, they are running up against teams with better players (save Tech) and they are losing. No real secret that was going to happen.

 

[DenverSooner]

Those that say OU's players could not play for major and mid-major teams are way off base. It is not a complete lack of talent that is hurting this team it is a lack of players. OU is essentially 3 scholarships short this year and may have one or two kids that were takent simply because OU did not have enough bodies but even those kids could certainly be on a mid-major roster. The people buying into this nonsense are comparing OU's players to the best major teams and mid-major teams, not the entire universe of major and mid-major teams. Consider these major programs:

Rutgers, Villanova, Pittsburgh, St. Johns, DePaul, Providence (this is the bottom of the Big East), Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, South Carolina (this is the bottom of the SEC starting with Arkansas and OU beat them), Iowa, Penn State, Nebraska (bottom of the Big Ten), Clemson, Georgia Tech, Wakeforest, Virginia Tech, Boston College (bottom of the ACC), Washington State, USC, Oregon State, Arizona State (bottom of the Pac 12 and CU is 4th place in that conference), Texas Tech, A&M, KSU (bottom of Big XII and KSU which OU swept). That is 27 major teams that would gladly take players like Grooms, Clark, Pledger, Fitzgerald and Osby and would likely take Blair and Neal.

If you go to mid-majors you get teams like this: East Carolina, Houston, SMU, Tulane (bottom on Con. USA), Charollet, George Washington, Richmond, Fordham, Rhode Island (bottom of Atlantic Ten), Youngstown State, Ill Chicago, Green Bay, Wright State, Loyola Chicago (Horrizon - Butler's conference), Towson, Hofstra, William & Mary, James Madison, NC Wilmington (Colonial - VCU and George Mason's conference), San Diego, Portland, Pepperdine, Santa Clara (West Coast Confernece - Gonzaga and St. Mary's conference). Conference USA, the Atlantic Ten, Butler, VCU, George Mason, Gonzaga and St. Mary's are perhaps the best examples of mid-majors in the last several years. The individual teams I named have all had some success in the NCAA Tournament as mid-majors.

OU has some problems and the particular group of players OU has may not work well together but they are clearly mid-major and above level talent. To suggest otherwise is simply not accurate. Every team I identified is clearly playing in a major or mid-major conference. You could probably take a bunch of teams from other conferences and call them mid-majors too (such as the Missouri Valley, MAC, Patriot, WAC, and Mountain West).

Minor conferences are conferences like the SWAC, Summit, Atlantic Sun, Southern, etc.

 

[bgrch1350]

Capels team right there would run circles around the guys we have now if you ask me. Capels team had size all over compared to Kruger's

You would have taken Longar over Fitzgerald...Carter/Griffin over Osby, Neal over Pledger??/