Bill Self to the Thunder?

[WTSooner]

Nothing has happened this season to weaken our argument.

Other players got better. Curry. Blake. And a host of others.

I agree, a lot of this is personal opinion. I admitted to being surprised Westbrook was so high on some lists to begin the season. Agree to disagree. I don't think the Thunder will win a Championship with Westbrook at pg. It's not impossible, I just think he holds them back. Just my opinion, not a fact.

 

[hoopsaustin]

Westbrook is not a top 7 player in the NBA. Suggesting that is simply being a homer. Nobody independent of the Thunder would rank him that high.

well if anyone knows about what it is to be a homer it would be WT, after that Tulsa thread :facepalm

 

[steverocks35]

You "think the general consensus will be that he isn't a top two pg, and not a top 7-8 player"? When will that be?

 

[152219]

Which team was the last NBA champion to be led by a PG that averaged 9+ assists/game?

 

[steverocks35]

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

Point guard A:
FG% .499
3p% .373
APG 5.7
Stl 0.5
RPG 2.3

Point Guard B
FG% .437
3p% .318
APG 6.9
Stl 1.9
RPG 5.7

Who would you rather have?

 

[WTSooner]

well if anyone knows about what it is to be a homer it would be WT, after that Tulsa thread :facepalm

Good one.

 

[152219]

The issue with OKC I see is that their offensive sets are fairly basic in NBA standards and if the initial play doesn't work, it typically ends up with Durant or Westbrook freelancing to try and get a shot. I could not begin to count how many times I've seen Westbrook have to take a shot late in the shot clock because he had to throw something up there. Does he take too many ill-advised shots? Sure, but he isn't the issue. The biggest issue is that the offense doesn't have much flow with the starters because the Thunder are playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end.

 

[steverocks35]

The issue with OKC I see is that their offensive sets are fairly basic in NBA standards and if the initial play doesn't work, it typically ends up with Durant or Westbrook freelancing to try and get a shot. I could not begin to count how many times I've seen Westbrook have to take a shot late in the shot clock because he had to throw something up there. Does he take too many ill-advised shots? Sure, but he isn't the issue. The biggest issue is that the offense doesn't have much flow with the starters because the Thunder are playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end.

Thank you, spot on. They way too often get stalled with 5 on the shot clock and Russ has to take a contested fadeaway at the buzzer, not his fault (usually). I get tired of seeing them spend 15 seconds trying to get KD the ball as he stands there with his hand in the air and a defender draped on him.

 

[WTSooner]

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

Point guard A:
FG% .499
3p% .373
APG 5.7
Stl 0.5
RPG 2.3

Point Guard B
FG% .437
3p% .318
APG 6.9
Stl 1.9
RPG 5.7

Who would you rather have?

I'll play.

Tony Parker vs Westbrook.

First, I hate games like this. You can't "choose a player" based on 5 stats, presented with no other information. Larry Bird is a top 5 player of all time. I'm guessing if you put his career numbers, like above, there are lots of lesser players that might appear to be better. But I digress.

I'd take Parker, if you are asking me who I'd rather build around. Would I say the Thunder would be better with Parker over Westy? No. Heck no. The Thunder, the way they are currently built, have to have a scorer like Westbrook. But SA wouldn't be better with Westbrook over Parker. Parker is a better fit for that roster.

I want my pg to be able to do a few things. Score efficiently (Parker blows Westy away in this regards), get the ball to the open man and start my offense, which will have scorers at the 2/3 spots, take care of the ball, and play solid defense.

Like I said, pull up a list of past NBA champions. In recent years, none of the teams that are winning titles are doing so with a pg like Westbrook. I don't think that is a coincidence.

 

[campbest]

Brooks is the guy before the guy.

 

[152219]

I'll play.

Tony Parker vs Westbrook.

First, I hate games like this. You can't "choose a player" based on 5 stats, presented with no other information. Larry Bird is a top 5 player of all time. I'm guessing if you put his career numbers, like above, there are lots of lesser players that might appear to be better. But I digress.

I'd take Parker, if you are asking me who I'd rather build around. Would I say the Thunder would be better with Parker over Westy? No. Heck no. The Thunder, the way they are currently built, have to have a scorer like Westbrook. But SA wouldn't be better with Westbrook over Parker. Parker is a better fit for that roster.

I want my pg to be able to do a few things. Score efficiently (Parker blows Westy away in this regards), get the ball to the open man and start my offense, which will have scorers at the 2/3 spots, take care of the ball, and play solid defense.

Like I said, pull up a list of past NBA champions. In recent years, none of the teams that are winning titles are doing so with a pg like Westbrook. I don't think that is a coincidence.

In the past 20 years, has a dominant PG won the NBA championship? Most teams had PGs that typically played off the ball and were not big assist guys, including all the Phil Jackson led title teams, the Heat teams, etc. And Tony Parker isn't a big assist guy because that just isn't how San Antonio runs their offense, it is about ball movement by all 5 guys. Parker is more about getting in the lane and getting his own shots than distributing the ball when it comes outside of their ball movement.

 

[152219]

Rondo is a pass first PG who helped the Celtics win the championship, as was Jason Kidd (but he wasn't dominant, just a crafty veteran with quick hands and spot up 3 point shooting). Did I miss anyone in the past 20 years?

 

[WTSooner]

Rondo is a pass first PG who helped the Celtics win the championship, as was Jason Kidd (but he wasn't dominant, just a crafty veteran with quick hands and spot up 3 point shooting). Did I miss anyone in the past 20 years?

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking? Are you trying to follow up my comment about there not being a lot of scoring pg's that won titles, with a point that there haven't been a lot of passing pg's that won titles too? Not trying to be difficult, I'm really just not following?

 

[152219]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking? Are you trying to follow up my comment about there not being a lot of scoring pg's that won titles, with a point that there haven't been a lot of passing pg's that won titles too? Not trying to be difficult, I'm really just not following?

You have been talking about distributing PGs playing a significant role in driving teams to titles. Is that true? That means the offense is initiated by the PG and would thus rack up nice assist totals. That just hasn't been happening IMO. For the teams that have won titles, PGs have typically played a minor role in a large number of titles recently. The starting PG of the team that has won the last two titles is Mario Chalmers. He rarely initiates the offense (typically James or Wade inititates the offense), but is used typically as a spot up 3 point shooter and to play defense. All of Phil Jackson's championship teams were the same way with wings initiating the offense in the triangle.

 

[152219]

Since he has been with the Spurs, Parker has taken as many shots as Duncan in the post season with Manu a distant third. Parker has only averaged 5.3 assists/game in the playoffs in his career. Manu is 3.9.

 

[WTSooner]

You have been talking about distributing PGs playing a significant role in driving teams to titles. Is that true? That means the offense is initiated by the PG and would thus rack up nice assist totals. That just hasn't been happening IMO. For the teams that have won titles, PGs have typically played a minor role in a large number of titles recently. The starting PG of the team that has won the last two titles is Mario Chalmers. He rarely initiates the offense (typically James or Wade inititates the offense), but is used typically as a spot up 3 point shooter and to play defense. All of Phil Jackson's championship teams were the same way with wings initiating the offense in the triangle.

More than distributing pg's, I'd say it's pg's that don't take the shot load that Westbrook does. You are right, there have been pg's that really haven't done much at all that have won titles. How? Because they've played next to Lebron/Wade. Or next to Allen/Pierce/KG (Rondo had low assist numbers for that 2008 Championship, but was certainly a bigger driving force when they should have won a couple of years later). So I think if you look at it in those terms.....either being a big assist guy, or simply being a guy that does much of nothing, just facilitates the offense, and gets the ball to Lebron, or Dirk, or whomever to make plays, I think those types of pg's make up the vast majority of Championship winning pg's in recent history. I can't think of anybody that is really like Westbrook. I might be forgetting somebody, but I can't think of it. Having a great SF or SG, a scoring pg that is a volume shooter, and pretty mediocre offense everywhere else hasn't really been a recipe to win NBA Championships. Right?

 

[WTSooner]

Since he has been with the Spurs, Parker has taken as many shots as Duncan in the post season with Manu a distant third. Parker has only averaged 5.3 assists/game in the playoffs in his career. Manu is 3.9.

But as you said, different offense, and I believe for his career Parker is considerably more efficient in his shots. SA also plays at a slower pace, so there aren't as many shots to go around.

 

[152219]

But as you said, different offense, and I believe for his career Parker is considerably more efficient in his shots. SA also plays at a slower pace, so there aren't as many shots to go around.

Considering that the offense is slower, Parker in his career has taken 16.4 shots/postseason game and Westbrook has taken 19.8. Considering pace, which players is taking a larger % of his team's shots? I'm guessing it is probably pretty close to even. So, is Parker a shoot first PG?

 

[campbest]

But as you said, different offense, and I believe for his career Parker is considerably more efficient in his shots. SA also plays at a slower pace, so there aren't as many shots to go around.

Westbrook isn't the problem, it's the offensive scheme. Works great in the regular season when, lets be honest, most teams don't give a crap about playing defense.

In the post season, if you're not able to move the ball side to side, you get exposed. This has been a common problem for OKC the past three years and was a big reason why Kevin Martin never really got in the flow during his one year with the team. Memphis may be the worst match-up for OKC in the Western Conference Playoffs, would probably rank LAC second and SAS third (as potential opponents).

 

[campbest]

Considering that the offense is slower, Parker in his career has taken 16.4 shots/postseason game and Westbrook has taken 19.8. Considering pace, which players is taking a larger % of his team's shots? I'm guessing it is probably pretty close to even. So, is Parker a shoot first PG?

Yes. People forget, when TP came into the league and on those early Spurs teams...he was a gunner. Pop had to reel in his offense and force it through Duncan to stabilize their efficiency, one of the reasons you saw so much of the ball handling/offense initiation come from Ginobili because TP had propensity to look for his.

Main difference is TP had a Tim Duncan (arguably the greatest PF of all time) to throw it too.