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The fact that we're having this discussion, protests, riots, and professional athletes canceling games over 8-25 incidents a YEAR still just floors me. It's the biggest reason I can't get behind this particular cause. The numbers just aren't there. And in order to get the numbers there, the movement is starting to call incidents that shouldn't be news, as racist murders. A guy with a knife fights with police, is tazed, doesn't comply, and reaches in his vehicle before being shot, and we're literally fighting over this? That's when you know one side isn't wanting to have an honest discussion about things.

I already addressed this concern. That you are turning a huge problem into a small one. Probably not intentionally.

I will also state this again..... what they are being asked to police is the biggest problem. In my opinion, the real root problem. We do have systemic racism in the criminal justice system, but it's still not the root problem. We have way too much poverty, way too much struggle, alcoholism, drug use, 1 in 6 on anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medication, over a million kids drop out of school EVERY YEAR (7,000 students a day), nearly 400 million guns in circulation, etc.

We have serious societal problems, and that absolutely has an impact on the police and criminal justice system. Everything I listed above is something the police are being asked to deal with.

We have parts of our society that are basically broken... and we want you guys (cops) to go out there and keep armed impoverished/desperate people, homeless people, armed substance abusers, armed people at their wits end, armed crazy people, etc in line, EVERY DAY, 24/7. Mix that cocktail together and tell me if we have a good outcome.

Policing a society that is partially broken just isn't going to work.
 
no doubt about it. IMO it stems from the destruction of the family

Which is why the support that BLM has is terrifying.

Yes, with all the evidence we have about 1 parent vs 2 parent families and poverty, education, crime, teen pregnancy, etc, I would think the BLM agenda would be a huge red flag to all black Americans. They want to destroy the family. How freaking stupid is that?
 
Yes, with all the evidence we have about 1 parent vs 2 parent families and poverty, education, crime, teen pregnancy, etc, I would think the BLM agenda would be a huge red flag to all black Americans. They want to destroy the family. How freaking stupid is that?

To be clear..... there is some context to it. Right or wrong. It is more complicated than what you are making it out to be.

It's based on Engels, from what I understand. If you don't know, he was basically the sidekick of Karl Marx. He wrote a book called The Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State. In that book he studies and lays out the family as it was in every era of human history, from ancient to modern.

He forms all sorts of opinions and conclusions based on that research, but the gist of it is that the "modern family" is a relatively new construct in human history, which basically enslaved the woman and transitioned the family to one dominated by the male. Essentially making her a domestic servant, with no rights, no legacy, etc. At that time of the writing, women couldn't vote, couldn't participate in commerce, couldn't divorce, etc. So there is some historical context to it.

What Engels said:
“The care and education of children becomes a public matter. Society cares equally well for all children. This removes the care about the ‘consequences’ which now forms the essential social factor – moral and economic – hindering a girl to surrender unconditionally to the beloved man.”

What BLM said:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work."

It's hard to deduce without further study into BLM (which I have not done yet, but plan to eventually), but on the surface it appears they are promoting heavily the idea of the communal family, which Engels outlines in his book as the way it was done for a long time in many societies, including Native American society. "It takes a village", and so on.... Extended families, uncles, aunts, neighbors, communities, etc all play a role in the development of young people.

How that works in practice, I have no idea.

And finally, I could be wrong on my interpretation of this, but it seems like the overall critique is this:

Capitalism has created immense poverty, especially in minority communities... Because people are poor, the mothers are having to work multiple jobs to survive from month to month... and the nuclear family system is specifically designed to "mother" in private.. The mom has to send their kid to daycare, may only spend a short amount of time with them per day, and it's basically 100% on a single individual to care for the kid. In earlier societal forms, the raising of children was more communal than it is now, and that seems to be what they are promoting.

The direct passage from BLM is... "supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children"....

So they aren't saying have no family... they are talking about setting up communities of people that all participate in the raising of the children of that community.

How something like that would really look, again, I have no idea.
 
To be clear..... there is some context to it. Right or wrong. It is more complicated than what you are making it out to be.

It's based on Engels, from what I understand. If you don't know, he was basically the sidekick of Karl Marx. He wrote a book called The Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State. In that book he studies and lays out the family as it was in every era of human history, from ancient to modern.

He forms all sorts of opinions and conclusions based on that research, but the gist of it is that the "modern family" is a relatively new construct in human history, which basically enslaved the woman and transitioned the family to one dominated by the male. Essentially making her a domestic servant, with no rights, no legacy, etc. At that time of the writing, women couldn't vote, couldn't participate in commerce, couldn't divorce, etc. So there is some historical context to it.

What Engels said:
“The care and education of children becomes a public matter. Society cares equally well for all children. This removes the care about the ‘consequences’ which now forms the essential social factor – moral and economic – hindering a girl to surrender unconditionally to the beloved man.”

What BLM said:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work."

It's hard to deduce without further study into BLM (which I have not done yet, but plan to eventually), but on the surface it appears they are promoting heavily the idea of the communal family, which Engels outlines in his book as the way it was done for a long time in many societies, including Native American society. "It takes a village", and so on.... Extended families, uncles, aunts, neighbors, communities, etc all play a role in the development of young people.

How that works in practice, I have no idea.

And finally, I could be wrong on my interpretation of this, but it seems like the overall critique is this:

Capitalism has created immense poverty, especially in minority communities... Because people are poor, the mothers are having to work multiple jobs to survive from month to month... and the nuclear family system is specifically designed to "mother" in private.. The mom has to send their kid to daycare, may only spend a short amount of time with them per day, and it's basically 100% on a single individual to care for the kid. In earlier societal forms, the raising of children was more communal than it is now, and that seems to be what they are promoting.

The direct passage from BLM is... "supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children"....

So they aren't saying have no family... they are talking about setting up communities of people that all participate in the raising of the children of that community.

How something like that would really look, again, I have no idea.
LOL. you lost me at marx
 
To be clear..... there is some context to it. Right or wrong. It is more complicated than what you are making it out to be.

It's based on Engels, from what I understand. If you don't know, he was basically the sidekick of Karl Marx. He wrote a book called The Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State. In that book he studies and lays out the family as it was in every era of human history, from ancient to modern.

He forms all sorts of opinions and conclusions based on that research, but the gist of it is that the "modern family" is a relatively new construct in human history, which basically enslaved the woman and transitioned the family to one dominated by the male. Essentially making her a domestic servant, with no rights, no legacy, etc. At that time of the writing, women couldn't vote, couldn't participate in commerce, couldn't divorce, etc. So there is some historical context to it.

What Engels said:
“The care and education of children becomes a public matter. Society cares equally well for all children. This removes the care about the ‘consequences’ which now forms the essential social factor – moral and economic – hindering a girl to surrender unconditionally to the beloved man.”

What BLM said:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work."

It's hard to deduce without further study into BLM (which I have not done yet, but plan to eventually), but on the surface it appears they are promoting heavily the idea of the communal family, which Engels outlines in his book as the way it was done for a long time in many societies, including Native American society. "It takes a village", and so on.... Extended families, uncles, aunts, neighbors, communities, etc all play a role in the development of young people.

How that works in practice, I have no idea.

And finally, I could be wrong on my interpretation of this, but it seems like the overall critique is this:

Capitalism has created immense poverty, especially in minority communities... Because people are poor, the mothers are having to work multiple jobs to survive from month to month... and the nuclear family system is specifically designed to "mother" in private.. The mom has to send their kid to daycare, may only spend a short amount of time with them per day, and it's basically 100% on a single individual to care for the kid. In earlier societal forms, the raising of children was more communal than it is now, and that seems to be what they are promoting.

The direct passage from BLM is... "supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children"....

So they aren't saying have no family... they are talking about setting up communities of people that all participate in the raising of the children of that community.

How something like that would really look, again, I have no idea.

All of that may sound good in a book to someone with nothing to lose. It appeals to young minds that know nothing of the world and have no possessions or wealth. Anything would sound good to them. Yet, every time this ideology gets put into practice, it’s a total disaster and devolves into a dictatorship or totalitarian regime that further oppresses people, far greater than they were before. It’s not like this is new. We’ve already seen it play out in real life. It’s a disaster.

Poverty, oppression, opportunity are all worse in Marxist society n
 
Hopefully doing away with unions was on your list. I'd agree with that.

Finally had enough free time to do some digging & this is what I posted shortly after George Floyd.

I agree with this 100%. A huge way to help the prison & police situations is to invest the $$$ into public education, rehab facilities, and the police force. Cut a huge chunk out of the military budget.

Putting $$$ into education increases the probability someone gets a solid job to support themselves and provide more options. Schools need far better funding. Also if teachers and police officers had a higher salary more qualified & better teachers/officers would go into the profession. Schools are hesitant to get rid of the bottom teachers because they don’t know who will fill these positions, there are way too many emergency certified teachers. Most teachers are amazing but there are plenty of bad ones as well, very similar to police officers. I had 3 people walk out of my Fundamentals of Education class when the teacher showed us the salary scale for teachers.

It takes 6 months to be a police officer. There should be so many more hours, education, & funding to become one. However, since the pay isn’t worth the risk or going to school/training for a few years, like teaching, too many bad ones get through and keep their jobs.

Great rehabilitation programs would be better than prison for drug addicts. Drug addicts are also the majority of robberies in America. Rehab them properly instead of prison (where it’s worse drugs & violence).
 
I already addressed this concern. That you are turning a huge problem into a small one. Probably not intentionally.

I will also state this again..... what they are being asked to police is the biggest problem. In my opinion, the real root problem. We do have systemic racism in the criminal justice system, but it's still not the root problem. We have way too much poverty, way too much struggle, alcoholism, drug use, 1 in 6 on anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medication, over a million kids drop out of school EVERY YEAR (7,000 students a day), nearly 400 million guns in circulation, etc.

We have serious societal problems, and that absolutely has an impact on the police and criminal justice system. Everything I listed above is something the police are being asked to deal with.

We have parts of our society that are basically broken... and we want you guys (cops) to go out there and keep armed impoverished/desperate people, homeless people, armed substance abusers, armed people at their wits end, armed crazy people, etc in line, EVERY DAY, 24/7. Mix that cocktail together and tell me if we have a good outcome.

Policing a society that is partially broken just isn't going to work.

You need to stop with this. If this is what YOU think the movement is about, fine. But 90% of what you list here isn't what they are talking about or asking for. And I'm sorry, but the bail system, whether fair or not, isn't racist. You can type a bunch of words saying otherwise, but it's not.
 
WT.... if you are referencing the BLM movement, that is not what I am suggesting. I know their movement is not about those things at all.

Those things I listed are specifically referenced to why police work is very difficult in the US. They have nothing to do with BLM.
 
To be clear..... there is some context to it. Right or wrong. It is more complicated than what you are making it out to be.

It's based on Engels, from what I understand. If you don't know, he was basically the sidekick of Karl Marx. He wrote a book called The Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State. In that book he studies and lays out the family as it was in every era of human history, from ancient to modern.

He forms all sorts of opinions and conclusions based on that research, but the gist of it is that the "modern family" is a relatively new construct in human history, which basically enslaved the woman and transitioned the family to one dominated by the male. Essentially making her a domestic servant, with no rights, no legacy, etc. At that time of the writing, women couldn't vote, couldn't participate in commerce, couldn't divorce, etc. So there is some historical context to it.

What Engels said:
“The care and education of children becomes a public matter. Society cares equally well for all children. This removes the care about the ‘consequences’ which now forms the essential social factor – moral and economic – hindering a girl to surrender unconditionally to the beloved man.”

What BLM said:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work."

It's hard to deduce without further study into BLM (which I have not done yet, but plan to eventually), but on the surface it appears they are promoting heavily the idea of the communal family, which Engels outlines in his book as the way it was done for a long time in many societies, including Native American society. "It takes a village", and so on.... Extended families, uncles, aunts, neighbors, communities, etc all play a role in the development of young people.

How that works in practice, I have no idea.

And finally, I could be wrong on my interpretation of this, but it seems like the overall critique is this:

Capitalism has created immense poverty, especially in minority communities... Because people are poor, the mothers are having to work multiple jobs to survive from month to month... and the nuclear family system is specifically designed to "mother" in private.. The mom has to send their kid to daycare, may only spend a short amount of time with them per day, and it's basically 100% on a single individual to care for the kid. In earlier societal forms, the raising of children was more communal than it is now, and that seems to be what they are promoting.

The direct passage from BLM is... "supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children"....

So they aren't saying have no family... they are talking about setting up communities of people that all participate in the raising of the children of that community.

How something like that would really look, again, I have no idea.

So many comments. So little time.
 
WT.... if you are referencing the BLM movement, that is not what I am suggesting. I know their movement is not about those things at all.

Those things I listed are specifically referenced to why police work is very difficult in the US. They have nothing to do with BLM.

Well, the BLM movement is what is currently going on, so that is what I'm discussing. I'm not saying there aren't some things that might could be done differently in terms of policing, but a) that really isn't the current topic, and b) it's mostly driven by a change in how people treat/interact with police, and a more overall moral decay in mankind.
 
Well, the BLM movement is what is currently going on, so that is what I'm discussing. I'm not saying there aren't some things that might could be done differently in terms of policing, but a) that really isn't the current topic, and b) it's mostly driven by a change in how people treat/interact with police, and a more overall moral decay in mankind.

We were talking about policing, police brutality, the issues in Kenosha, etc... And there are also convos going on about BLM. In fact, we were talking about why its hard to police in our society, AND THEN BLM got brought into the convo by Bounce who was saying that society has the problems it does because of issues inside the family.... but thanks for policing the forum.
 
Looks like conservative personalities have taken to Twitter to vow they aren't going to watch sports anymore.

I thought they hated cancel culture?
 
We were talking about policing, police brutality, the issues in Kenosha, etc... And there are also convos going on about BLM. In fact, we were talking about why its hard to police in our society, AND THEN BLM got brought into the convo by Bounce who was saying that society has the problems it does because of issues inside the family.... but thanks for policing the forum.

No policing anything. Bail doesn't have anything to do with the shooting in Wisconsin. YOU keep taking the conversation a million different directions. Trying to explain away behavior that can't be explained away. Truth of the matter is it does not matter why he fought with police, didn't comply, and tried to leave or get another weapon from his car. Fact of the matter is, if you do those things, regardless of color, 90% of the time you are going to get shot.
 
Looks like conservative personalities have taken to Twitter to vow they aren't going to watch sports anymore.

I thought they hated cancel culture?

Big difference between cancel culture and this IMO

To me it boils down to what reprocusion the people boycotting are trying to achieve.

It seems the left wants to eliminate the other side's voice completely. They want to get anything that doesn't align with their view silenced.

The right, for the most part, isn't trying to silence the other side. They are withdrawing support.

At least that is how it is in my biased mind. The left is more about ideology and the right is more about specific issues.

A good example is AOC calling for a boycott of a company simply for aligning with Trump. She doesn't want anythign around that isn't compatible with her world view.

The right boycotting the NBA isn't trying to silence them or take away their voice. The have the right to their opinion. They should speak out for what they believe.
 
Big difference between cancel culture and this IMO

To me it boils down to what reprocusion the people boycotting are trying to achieve.

It seems the left wants to eliminate the other side's voice completely. They want to get anything that doesn't align with their view silenced.

The right, for the most part, isn't trying to silence the other side. They are withdrawing support.

At least that is how it is in my biased mind. The left is more about ideology and the right is more about specific issues.

A good example is AOC calling for a boycott of a company simply for aligning with Trump. She doesn't want anythign around that isn't compatible with her world view.

The right boycotting the NBA isn't trying to silence them or take away their voice. The have the right to their opinion. They should speak out for what they believe.

They literally tell them to "shut up and dribble"
 
Big difference between cancel culture and this IMO

To me it boils down to what reprocusion the people boycotting are trying to achieve.

It seems the left wants to eliminate the other side's voice completely. They want to get anything that doesn't align with their view silenced.

The right, for the most part, isn't trying to silence the other side. They are withdrawing support.

At least that is how it is in my biased mind. The left is more about ideology and the right is more about specific issues.

A good example is AOC calling for a boycott of a company simply for aligning with Trump. She doesn't want anythign around that isn't compatible with her world view.

The right boycotting the NBA isn't trying to silence them or take away their voice. The have the right to their opinion. They should speak out for what they believe.

Hmmmm, not sure I agree....

GOYA CEO supports Trump..... people who don't like Trump boycott GOYA

NBA supports BLM..... people who don't like BLM boycott NBA

Isn't it the same?
 
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