Gotleib on Cezar Guererro

[StoopsBros]

Bobik played more of the "point guard" position some of the time, allowing Lucas to play off the ball some. But, Lucas has played 500 minutes in the NBA. Which is pretty good for a sub 6 foot guard. And 500 more than Hollis Price did. :eddie187_jpg_xs:

3.0 ppg
.35 turnovers per game
.7 apg
.4 spg
.7 rpg


If you don't think Price could have done that then you are truly living under a rock. Sometimes having NBA connections buy you 62 crappy games in a league you weren't good enough to play PG in.

 

[aaron7]

I understand that. That's not what I meant. Just because you start at PG, it doesn't make a good point guard. The poke brought up Price and Price wasn't a PG. To me, Lucas was never a TRUE PG either.
NBA execs are looking for PGs that have a pass-first mentality but can still score. Basically a PG that can do both effectively and still be the floor general. You don't see many PGs averaging less than 4 assists these days. For example, DRose, DWilliams, Westbrook...All those guys can score but they are also just as good dishing the rock. You aren't going to make it in the NBA (as a PG) averaging 18 ppg and 3-4 apg. That was Lucas' game.

This was his whole point. A point guard with a scorers mentality. That is exactly what Lucas was, yet you argue about it and prove him to be right. No one ever said a word about either being an NBA point guard.

 

[HoHum]

3.0 ppg
.35 turnovers per game
.7 apg
.4 spg
.7 rpg


If you don't think Price could have done that then you are truly living under a rock. Sometimes having NBA connections buy you 62 crappy games in a league you weren't good enough to play PG in.

But he didn't.

 

[StoopsBros]

But he didn't.

Because Hollis Price II didn't play in the league.

 

[HoHum]

Because Hollis Price II didn't play in the league.

My point exactly. :vitale

 

[StoopsBros]

This was his whole point. A point guard with a scorers mentality. That is exactly what Lucas was, yet you argue about it and prove him to be right. No one ever said a word about either being an NBA point guard.

You're right, I turned a collegiate discussion into how their games translated...Anywho.

I'll always want a passing PG, scoring SG, scoring/defending wing/SF, scoring PF and a defending C w/some scoring ability. Maybe I'm getting old.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

My point exactly. :vitale

Honestly with the $$$ Hollis was making and the lifestyle that you can enjoy in Europe; I'm not sure that it wasn't better than bouncing between the NBA and the D-League. Not a swipe at Lucas III at all either, I liked his game and hope he is doing well in whatever he is doing at this point.

 

[HoHum]

Honestly with the $$$ Hollis was making and the lifestyle that you can enjoy in Europe; I'm not sure that it wasn't better than bouncing between the NBA and the D-League. Not a swipe at Lucas III at all either, I liked his game and hope he is doing well in whatever he is doing at this point.

I was just joshing around. I didn't watch Price nearly as much as I watched Lucas III, but they were both awesome college players, and if you're good enough to make some money playing basketball, you're pretty damn good.

As an aside, when looking up Lucas' NBA stats, I found out Ivan McFarlin played 11 games for the 76'ers in 06-07 and was traded along with Allen Iverson from Philly to Denver. I had no clue.

 

[aaron7]

You're right, I turned a collegiate discussion into how their games translated...Anywho.

I'll always want a passing PG, scoring SG, scoring/defending wing/SF, scoring PF and a defending C w/some scoring ability. Maybe I'm getting old.

That would be the perfect team. Problem is that the athletes at the SG position have gotten so much better, that they rely on their athleticism way more than being a knock down shooter. This lack of pure shooting ability has seemed to cause the point guards to take on more of a scorer's mentality.

 

[HoHum]

I don't think you actually got the point.

My point was, Lucas had a NBA career. Price didn't. Could Price have done what Lucas did in the NBA (i.e. not much?), sure he could have. Maybe even better. But playing in the NBA has to be every American basketball playing kid's dream, and even if it was because of who is daddy was, Lucas got to achieve that.

 

[StoopsBros]

My point was, Lucas had a NBA career. Price didn't. Could Price have done what Lucas did in the NBA (i.e. not much?), sure he could have. Maybe even better. But playing in the NBA has to be every American basketball playing kid's dream, and even if it was because of who is daddy was, Lucas got to achieve that.

Yeah but to say Lucas is better than Price or anything of that sort because he had a connection to the league isn't provable. There's been a lot of guys not make it to the NBA that were better than some guys currently on rosters. I'd take Price over Lucas and not just because of my crimson glasses. Price only averaged (I think) one assist less than Lucas when both were seniors and Hollis was a SG.

 

[oSuJeff97]

I understand that. That's not what I meant. Just because you start at PG, it doesn't make a good point guard. The poke brought up Price and Price wasn't a PG. To me, Lucas was never a TRUE PG either.

My bad about Hollis Price... memory failed me again.

But the point remains about John Lucas. He may not have been a "true" point guard, but my point is, what does it matter?

He was a the starting point guard for a Final Four team, for crying out loud... he must have been doing something right.

NBA execs are looking for PGs that have a pass-first mentality but can still score. Basically a PG that can do both effectively and still be the floor general. You don't see many PGs averaging less than 4 assists these days. For example, DRose, DWilliams, Westbrook...All those guys can score but they are also just as good dishing the rock. You aren't going to make it in the NBA (as a PG) averaging 18 ppg and 3-4 apg. That was Lucas' game.

Well what are we talking about here? Being good in the NBA or being an effective point guard in college?

I thought the latter was what was being discussed vis a vis Guererro.

And FWIW, Lucas averaged 4.5 assits his junior year and 4.1 assists his senior year.

His PPG were 15.1 and 17.7 in the two years, respectively.

Perhaps more importantly for college, he really took care of the ball... his assist-to-turnover ratio was greater than 2.4 both years.

In terms of a college team, I would take a point guard who could put up numbers like that in a SECOND.

 

[StoopsBros]

2000 Michigan State - Mateen Cleaves (12.1 ppg & 6.9 apg)
2001 Duke - Jason Williams (21.6 & 6.1)
2002 Maryland - Steve Blake (8.0 & 7.9)
2003 Syracuse - Gerry McNamera (13.3 & 4.4)
2004 UConn - Taliek Brown (6.3 & 6.5)
2005 UNC - Raymond Felton (12.9 & 6.9)
2006 Florida - Taurean Green (13.3 & 4.7)
2007 Florida - Taurean Green (13.3 & 3.7)
2008 Kansas - Mario Chalmers (12.8 & 4.3)
2009 UNC - Ty Lawson (16.6 & 6.5)
2010 Duke - Jon Scheyer (18.2 & 4.8)

Not sure if this proves any points but thought it was interesting anyways.

The averages of the averages are - 13.5 ppg & 5.7 apg...

 

[Mr.B!!!]

This just reminded me that Steve Blake has been in the NBA for almost a decade; who would of thunk it?

 

[oSuJeff97]

2000 Michigan State - Mateen Cleaves (12.1 ppg & 6.9 apg)
2001 Duke - Jason Williams (21.6 & 6.1)
2002 Maryland - Steve Blake (8.0 & 7.9)
2003 Syracuse - Gerry McNamera (13.3 & 4.4)
2004 UConn - Taliek Brown (6.3 & 6.5)
2005 UNC - Raymond Felton (12.9 & 6.9)
2006 Florida - Taurean Green (13.3 & 4.7)
2007 Florida - Taurean Green (13.3 & 3.7)
2008 Kansas - Mario Chalmers (12.8 & 4.3)
2009 UNC - Ty Lawson (16.6 & 6.5)
2010 Duke - Jon Scheyer (18.2 & 4.8)

Not sure if this proves any points but thought it was interesting anyways.

The averages of the averages are - 13.5 ppg & 5.7 apg...

Very interesting.

It looks to me like there are only really two "pass first" guys on that list: Steve Blake and Taliek Brown.

The rest were all guys comparable, more or less, to a John Lucas type.

Guys who could dish a little bit (4-6 assists), but would mainly go out and get you points. (If you take out Blake and Brown, the rest average 15.3 ppg.)

 

[StoopsBros]

Very interesting.

It looks to me like there are only really two "pass first" guys on that list: Steve Blake and Taliek Brown.

The rest were all guys comparable, more or less, to a John Lucas type.

Guys who could dish a little bit (4-6 assists), but would mainly go out and get you points. (If you take out Blake and Brown, the rest average 15.3 ppg.)

Take out the lowest two apg(s) and you get 6.1.

So on topic, I guess if Guerrero comes in to whatever school and averages 15.3 and 6.1, he'll be an ideal PG.

 

[jmizzy4ou]

I respect stats, but sometimes they are just words on a paper. Today's game almost forces a team to have a PG that can take over a game on offense. The days of 2 guards being spot up shooters who thrive off of the PG making plays for them is over. Of course guys like Rose average the most assists on their teams because they are always running the offense, having the ball in their hands.

Most teams today have 2 guards and even 3's and 4's who create their own offense. Take a guy like Shaq. In his prime I could have averaged 10 assists a game by just making routine entry passes to him.:ez-laugh: Guys like Rose D-Williams, Westbrook, they average double digit assists, but nothing about their games is old school, traditional PG. They get many of the assist in the open court, or by being able to get the ball to deadly scorers like KD.

I would take a guy who can set my offense, knows when to push, when to slow, and can take over a game offensively, over an old walk the ball up the court type anyday. Today's game is full of athletes all over the floor, and the PG must be able to do some of those things as well as pass.

 

[HoHum]

Yeah but to say Lucas is better than Price or anything of that sort because he had a connection to the league isn't provable. There's been a lot of guys not make it to the NBA that were better than some guys currently on rosters. I'd take Price over Lucas and not just because of my crimson glasses. Price only averaged (I think) one assist less than Lucas when both were seniors and Hollis was a SG.

I never once said Lucas was better than Price. I said he had a better NBA career. Which is not debatable.

 

[NickZepp]

That's like saying Rickey Grace had an NBA career or someone like that. Or that Willie Warren had an NBA career so they were both better than Hollis Price. It just doesn't really work that way. NBA is about being an athlete or having connections. If John Lucas didn't have a dad that played in the NBA he probably would have never played a game in the NBA.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

That's like saying Rickey Grace had an NBA career or someone like that. Or that Willie Warren had an NBA career so they were both better than Hollis Price. It just doesn't really work that way. NBA is about being an athlete or having connections. If John Lucas didn't have a dad that played in the NBA he probably would have never played a game in the NBA.

thats not the point he was making