I know this is a hoops board but...

[seniorsooner]

If you didn't witness the incident personally, you have no clue what happened. So wait until all of the facts come out before spouting your mouth off.

 

[steverocks35]

If you didn't witness the incident personally, you have no clue what happened. So wait until all of the facts come out before spouting your mouth off.

I agree, but I did say "If the story I read was accurate".

 

[seniorsooner]

that goes for everyone, not just you

 

[sybarite]

Unless there is a good (emphasis on "good") tape of the incident, I doubt that we will ever know exactly what happened. There is reason to distrust the police. I've even had to testify against a Norman off-duty cop who ran a red light and broadsided a car and lied about it. I think most are decent men and women doing a job. Some do seem to invent problems or amplify them, especially where minorities are concerned.

But, then, patrons in a bar at two AM tend to be potential problems themselves.

As a juror, I would have to be persuaded beyond reasonable doubt by legitimate evidence, not an off-duty officer working in a bar giving his version. It would take more than that.

 

[coolm]

Having to be asked twice to leave then Being a smartass saying "I heard you the first time" was a mistake.

Why? It's not the military, he wasn't under arrest, and they were security - not cops.

Like I said before ... I can envision exactly what happened. He didn't "step and fetch" quickly enough for them so they got on a power trip.

If there was a fire and they were trying to save lives then it's one thing. This is another. He has every right to question what they are saying to him to his satisfaction. If they don't like it that's tough titty.

 

[25mob]

Unless there is a good (emphasis on "good") tape of the incident, I doubt that we will ever know exactly what happened. There is reason to distrust the police. I've even had to testify against a Norman off-duty cop who ran a red light and broadsided a car and lied about it. I think most are decent men and women doing a job. Some do seem to invent problems or amplify them, especially where minorities are concerned.

But, then, patrons in a bar at two AM tend to be potential problems themselves.

As a juror, I would have to be persuaded beyond reasonable doubt by legitimate evidence, not an off-duty officer working in a bar giving his version. It would take more than that.

there are way to many good cops that back the play of the bad cops initial decision which gives an impression to the public that they are all bad cops. I would really like to see in an instance like this the other 2 would just step in instead of allowing it to get this far.

 

[garyeb2]

1. Off duty police, working as security guards, are policemen.
2. Most people that are arrested are guilty of the crimes they are accused of.
3. To assume Peterson in guiltless, is putting oneself on the wrong side of
probability.
4. One doesn't have to like the police, like how they are acting, or like what
they say.
5. If one doesn't follow the instuctions of a big city cop at 2:00 am, one will
expose themselves to the liability of being cuffed,stuffed, and likely taserd.
6. Peterson exposed himself to a liability that he knew existed and thought he
get away with.
7. He didn't.

 

[WTSooner]

1. Off duty police, working as security guards, are policemen.
2. Most people that are arrested are guilty of the crimes they are accused of.
3. To assume Peterson in guiltless, is putting oneself on the wrong side of
probability.
4. One doesn't have to like the police, like how they are acting, or like what
they say.
5. If one doesn't follow the instuctions of a big city cop at 2:00 am, one will
expose themselves to the liability of being cuffed,stuffed, and likely taserd.
6. Peterson exposed himself to a liability that he knew existed and thought he
get away with.
7. He didn't.

The world must be ending soon, because I agree with you again.

And for the person that asked how can you resist arrest when you aren't under arrest, well.....he was being put under arrest when he allegedly shoved the officer, and assumed the aggressive stance.

I've been out at clubs at 2am. I've had an officer/security person tell me to leave. I left.

 

[Tundrasooner]

There's a Denny's somewhere that closes? Weird.

Wasn't talking about Denny's when I said he should have just left.

 

[Tundrasooner]

I found a "story" (from some clownish blog) about the incident at Denny's. Apparently a fight broke out there. There was minor damage, nobody was seriously injured and no charges were filed. Apparently AD was present and may have been involved in the fight. I would post the link here, but I hate to give that idiot blog the web traffic and the comments will make your skin crawl.

AD got into or caused a fight at the Norman Denny's real late or early in the morning. Somehow AD threw a glass ketchup bottle at the guy and hit him or he broke something at the restaurant with the glass bottle. Cops were called. Someone called Stoops and he went down and smoothed things over. Denny's and the guy didn't press charges or whatever reason.

Like I said earlier I hope there aren't charges filed against him here and this isn't huge but let's not all act like cops were out to get him.

 

[skyvue]

Most people that are arrested are guilty of the crimes they are accused of.

I'd like to see the statistics on that.

But even if that's so, in this case, AD's "guilt" is, at this point, strictly a matter of opinion and/or allegiance. Many questions remain to be answered.

1. Was the cop in uniform?
2. If not, did he identify himself as a cop?
3. Was he comporting himself in a professional and respectful manner, or was he itching for trouble?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I've seen enough bad behavior from cops to not assume that his version of the incident is the whole story.

I tended bar in bars and restaurants for many years. I don't believe I ever saw an arrest in a bar where I worked, and certainly not because a patron wasn't leaving quickly enough at closing time. Patrons never leave quickly enough at closing time, and if an off-duty copy wanted to get tough about it, he could arrest people every night of the week. But why? What would be the point, except to show how tough he is?

I don't assume AD should escape all blame in this incident, but an arrest hardly seems to have been necessary, given what we know so far.

Did the cop perceive AD as a genuine threat to society, as someone likely to leave the bar and create havoc or cause others harm? Or did he just resent not being kowtowed to?

Sounds to me like the latter, but I'll await further reports.

 

[WTSooner]

I don't assume AD should escape all blame in this incident, but an arrest hardly seems to have been necessary, given what we know so far.

Really?

Because he wasn't being arrested for not leaving quickly enough. He was being arrested for pushing an cop in the shoulder, then squaring up to him like he wanted to throw down. That will get you arrested 100% of the time. And when said officer tried to put him in cuffs, AD fought so hard, it took a total of three cops to get the cuffs on him.

IF you assume that is how it went down, AD is getting what he deserves. Sure, there is a chance that isn't how it went down. I think that is unlikely, though not impossible.

 

[skyvue]

Really?

Because he wasn't being arrested for not leaving quickly enough. He was being arrested for pushing an cop in the shoulder, then squaring up to him like he wanted to throw down. That will get you arrested 100% of the time. And when said officer tried to put him in cuffs, AD fought so hard, it took a total of three cops to get the cuffs on him.

IF you assume that is how it went down, AD is getting what he deserves. Sure, there is a chance that isn't how it went down. I think that is unlikely, though not impossible.

And do you honestly believe that nothing happened along the way to provoke AD? Can you believe that there might be a detail missing from that account that would serve to explain, if not excuse, AD's behavior?

Again, we don't know if the cop was in uniform (I don't, at least -- maybe I missed that info). If he wasn't, we don't know if/when he identified himself as a cop. We don't know if he was respectful and reasonable in dealing with the stragglers in the bar or if he was being contentious.

In short, we don't know if the cop did everything he could to avoid a confrontation, while still performing his duties. If he was being disrespectful or confrontational, he doesn't get off scott-free, in my view, just because he's a cop.

Similarly, if AD was truly behaving like a drunken jerk, he deserves what he gets. But it's a little hard for me to imagine AD "shoving" the cop (especially if he knew he was a cop) with no provocation at all. If he did, fair enough; he'll get what's coming to him.

 

[bocabull]

We know this. It was private property. Closing time was posted. He was asked to leave and didn't.

He has no rights in that situation. He is not entitled to respect, to a drink of water, anything. The security of this private property had every right to physically remove him.

Since Texas is a backwards gun rights state with one of those hick stand your ground laws security was probably entitled to shoot him if he became a threat.

 

[skyvue]

He has no rights in that situation. He is not entitled to respect, to a drink of water, anything. The security of this private property had every right to physically remove him.

What the property owner and/or the cop had a legal right to do and what is right and reasonable for them to do are often two different things.

In my opinion, an off-duty cop serving as a security officer shouldn't even be considered a cop. He's being paid by a private citizen, the business owner, which means he's understandably committed to protecting the rights and concerns of that business owner above all. Fair enough, that's what he's being paid for.

But we have every right to expect our police to be impartial and committed to protecting the rights and well-being of all citizens, every citizen. If a cop is off-duty and providing security for a private citizen's business, he should be considered a bouncer, period, with no greater powers than any other civilian bouncer.

And he shouldn't be allowed to wear his uniform while moonlighting, because the function he's serving differs in important -- even vital -- ways from the one he serves when he does wear that uniform.

A good bouncer knows it's better to talk his way out of a situation if at all possible. If it takes ten minutes longer to clear the bar, so be it. It's worth it to avoid a confrontation.

An off-duty cop should expected to use the same approach. Maybe this guy did, and maybe he didn't. But it's hard to imagine AD losing his cool with no provocation.

 

[WTSooner]

A good bouncer knows it's better to talk his way out of a situation if at all possible.

 

[garyeb2]

What the property owner and/or the cop had a legal right to do and what is right and reasonable for them to do are often two different things.

In my opinion, an off-duty cop serving as a security officer shouldn't even be considered a cop. He's being paid by a private citizen, the business owner, which means he's understandably committed to protecting the rights and concerns of that business owner above all. Fair enough, that's what he's being paid for.

But we have every right to expect our police to be impartial and committed to protecting the rights and well-being of all citizens, every citizen. If a cop is off-duty and providing security for a private citizen's business, he should be considered a bouncer, period, with no greater powers than any other civilian bouncer.

And he shouldn't be allowed to wear his uniform while moonlighting, because the function he's serving differs in important -- even vital -- ways from the one he serves when he does wear that uniform.

A good bouncer knows it's better to talk his way out of a situation if at all possible. If it takes ten minutes longer to clear the bar, so be it. It's worth it to avoid a confrontation.

An off-duty cop should expected to use the same approach. Maybe this guy did, and maybe he didn't. But it's hard to imagine AD losing his cool with no provocation.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter if AD was provoked or not. It doesn't matter if better proceedures were available. It doesn't matter if the cop was an ass.

AD went to jail because AD wanted to. AD's behavior got AD locked up. All he had to do was leave by the 2nd time he was told to. You know, just like everyone else.

 

[25mob]

We know this. It was private property. Closing time was posted. He was asked to leave and didn't.

Well actually we don't know this. This is what has been reported happened. it's been a lot of people experience with law enforcement that you can rarely believe what a police officer reports in these types of instances.

 

[CobraKai]

I'd like to see the statistics on that.

But even if that's so, in this case, AD's "guilt" is, at this point, strictly a matter of opinion and/or allegiance. Many questions remain to be answered.

1. Was the cop in uniform?
2. If not, did he identify himself as a cop?
3. Was he comporting himself in a professional and respectful manner, or was he itching for trouble?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I've seen enough bad behavior from cops to not assume that his version of the incident is the whole story.

I tended bar in bars and restaurants for many years. I don't believe I ever saw an arrest in a bar where I worked, and certainly not because a patron wasn't leaving quickly enough at closing time. Patrons never leave quickly enough at closing time, and if an off-duty copy wanted to get tough about it, he could arrest people every night of the week. But why? What would be the point, except to show how tough he is?

I don't assume AD should escape all blame in this incident, but an arrest hardly seems to have been necessary, given what we know so far.

Did the cop perceive AD as a genuine threat to society, as someone likely to leave the bar and create havoc or cause others harm? Or did he just resent not being kowtowed to?

Sounds to me like the latter, but I'll await further reports.

I agree. I worked in bars and restaurants many years while going to school. I can't say I've ever seen someone get arrested for not leaving fast enough. I've also seen many times where the bouncers had to "bounce" someone, and at least a few of them were because the bouncer wanted to show his authority and pound some drunk's face for a while.

 

[coolm]

no, off duty police working as security guards are NOT policemen. any more than you or I are a policeman. not sure where you got this but it is wrong. if they are not working in their capacity as a policeman then they are not a policeman. the operative condition here being did AD commit a CRIME in their presence. he didn't.

to assume Peterson is guiltless is wrong? HELLO??? You have a serious need for education. There exists in this country a very meticulous, resounding assumption of innocence. to assume otherwise is unconstitutional.

everything else you say is a lot of hot air, puffing, and braggadocio. L2lawschool and practice more crim law.