Is This Rock Bottom For the Program?

[StoopsBros]

just posting this in the first thread....damn near rock bottom but agree, it could get worse.

 

[BossFan64]

So, a few things…

First, I haven not posted much lately because honestly, I have very little to add and majority of what I do have to say is negative/depressing/pessimistic.

Secondly, I’ve been upfront in past that I’m a 24/7/364 sports fan and that the NFL/NBA/MLB were my first loves and my pro teams will always rank higher on my priority list (more on that in a minute). That said, I have loved college basketball since I was a kid and Selection Sunday and the following week or two have always been yearly highlights for me. I moved back to OKC area in 2006 and in those almost 20 years I’d say I average attending 7-8 games per season. I normally do whatever I can to watch the others.

This year has been different. I haven’t been yet. Partly due to conflicts, but mostly due to lack of interest. I’ve watched a lot of the games, but not particularly intently and with only a small whiff of passion.

I’m not mad. I don’t hate Moser and I don’t think he sucks. I’m not protesting or making some sort of statement. I’ve just reached a level of apathy I wasn’t sure I was capable of reaching.

So that leads me to my question… is it me or is this THE rock bottom point in OU basketball history?

Now, understand, I am NOT asking if this is the worst team in OU history. It’s not. It’s not even the worst team in RECENT OU history. And it’s certainly not the flaming dumpster fire of the last Capel season. But even at that point, I never really considered that maybe the program was just dead. I figured it would take a couple years to clean it up, but Joe C would find an answer—- and he did.

But since the peak of the 2016 FF team there has been a serious slide into the muck.

—The last half of the Lon era was not good. They never really bottomed out, but each season turned into a dogfight just to hover around .500 and squeeze into tourney. Worse in my eyes was the inability to maximize talent. Seeing players like McGusty and Manek far exceed their Norman production elsewhere. Seeing a team with a future NBA AS (I’m not a huge Trae fan, but he IS a high level NBA guy) flounder and look disinterested and disjointed. Seeing a guy like Austin Reaves become a go-to player in the NBA and wondering how we didn’t fare better with him on the squad.

—This is why I don’t totally destroy Porter. Because he’s just sort of kept that Lon train rolling. It’s the same stuff. Not getting enough talent and then failing to maximize what we have. Uzan and Oweh are major pieces on far better teams. And no need to outline or bemoan the hot starts following by horrid performance in conference.

—And I’m not sure if chicken or egg but the support and fan interest level is abysmal. I guess it doesn’t really matter if it’s cause or effect at this point (probably a bit of both) but it certainly adds to the depressed feeling around the program.

—I’m guilty of it, but the Thunder effect is also massive. Pretty unique situation in B12/SEC country— not many schools have an NBA team so close— and this one just happens to be a stellar/model franchise that currently boasts the best basketball team in the world. Making the decision on which team to follow most closely between Norman, Stillwater, and Bricktown is pretty darn easy. My kids are 16, 13, and 8. The oldest and youngest LOVE basketball. They are always happy to go to a game in Norman and root for them on TV, but they are Thunder/NBA OBSESSED. To say OU is an undercard is a slight to all undercards.

—Changing nature of college sports landscape. This isn’t unique to OU of course, but if a program struggles, I think you will see fans turn faster and be less quick to return than in the past as many are frustrated with the system. Winning at a higher level than ever before may be required to retain interest.

—Throw in the arena/LNC issue. I personally don’t mind the LNC but there is nothing additive about it. The ONLY reason to go to a game is to watch the game. And if the games stink….

So I take all of this into account and I think the program is truly in deep trouble. No hyperbole or recency bias. They haven’t had a truly “good” team in a decade now. And we now have a coach in his fourth year that is likely going to be 0-4 in terms of just making the tournament, which is the absolutely baseline floor for me in terms of where we should be as a program.

So year 4… no tourney appearances under his belt, only losing conf records to show, and headed for another bottom finish in their conference. Arena empty and/or lifeless. Zero competitiveness against top teams. Transfers leaving and finding better homes/roles elsewhere. Team and individual production going downhill as season progresses.

Not good. Not good at all.

And now, realizing the reality of being a smaller fish in a bigger pond… this all feels highly problematic.

Yes, I think the time is likely right after this season to move on from Moser. I like him. Seems he’s put in a greet effort with a lot of passion and has been accountable. He doesn’t throw kids or anyone else under the bus. He doesn’t complain about the lack of support (which has to be a bummer). But it hasn’t worked. It just hasn’t. It’s not all him, but it also appears he doesn’t have the answers so you gotta try someone else.

But that “someone else” I believe has a Herculean task on their hands. I really do. This program is in shambles. The decibel level has never been lower. I don’t even know what the selling point is at this point. It’s not a top job. It’s a “meh” opportunity. Thankfully, there are still more quality coaches out there than opportunities so it IS possible, but boy, the task has never looked more difficult and the clouds have been more gray over the skies of the OU basketball program.

Not even close. Not making the tournament for three years is not acceptable. If we go 0-4, we will very likely hire a new coach. But people forget how bad the late Bliss/late Tubbs years were. Capel was a disaster— losing and NCAA problems.
With the portal and NIL, a team’s fortunes can change quickly, good or bad.
Since I can remember, there’s only been one basketball coach who had consistantly strong support from fans, students and donors - Tubbs.
Unfortunately, I don’t see that changing anytime soon. It’s always going to be something — don’t like the coach; don’t like the style of play; only care about football; don’t like the arena; don’t like the marketing; don’t want to support until they prove it to me; etc.
There are several SEC schools who find a way to support multiple sports - Alabama, Tennessee, Auburn, etc. I’m hoping we can find a way to do that in the future, and it takes more than Joe C and Porter M.

 

[WaymanFan]

But people forget how bad the late Bliss/late Tubbs years were. Capel was a disaster— losing and NCAA problems.

Tubbs last four years were: 1) NIT title game, 2) NCAA Tournament - #4 seed, 1st round, 3) NIT 2nd round, and 4) NIT 1st round. While hardly stellar, it was better than these past four years. The one similarity is Tubbs 1993 team and Moser's 2024 team were both projected for the NCAA tournament until the worst-case scenario occurred in the conference tournaments.

Bliss last two years: 1) NCAA Sweet 16, and 2) winning record but no postseason. That was a dream compared to the past four years assuming no NCAA Tournament this year. I'm guessing you are thinking of Tubbs first year which the cupboard was bare, but he turned that around QUICKLY.

Capel's last two years was the worst two year stretch since the 1960s...but he basically achieved expectations his first three years which included an Elite Eight NCAA Tournament appearance.

 

[SunshinePumper]

Seeing Oweh be the best player on Kentucky is frustrating. Did Moser have ANY chance of keeping him and Milos or did he choose to let them go off to the portal.

 

[soonertrash77]

Seeing Oweh be the best player on Kentucky is frustrating. Did Moser have ANY chance of keeping him and Milos or did he choose to let them go off to the portal.

The way he treated Oweh at the end of the year no way he was staying. Los I think just got tired of the same rag voice in his ear.

Both guys are in much better situations. Kentucky spreads everything out and Pope gives him the freedom to shoot. PM always yanked someone if they miss one or two. Last night Los was interviewed after their game with Baylor. Flat out said he wanted to be challenged to get better. Both guys get to go to the dance btw

 

[makila]

I think one of the main points here is that we have reached apathy level for many. That's a problem anywhere.

When people are angry they still care. We are even losing the angry folks.

 

[Boom Soon]

The way he treated Oweh at the end of the year no way he was staying. Los I think just got tired of the same rag voice in his ear.

Both guys are in much better situations. Kentucky spreads everything out and Pope gives him the freedom to shoot. PM always yanked someone if they miss one or two. Last night Los was interviewed after their game with Baylor. Flat out said he wanted to be challenged to get better. Both guys get to go to the dance btw

I have no doubt about Moser’s ability to evaluate talent and recruit. But his retention is awful. And I do partly blame NIL for that. I think Moser is generally liked by his players. But I think there’s a clear lack of vision for the program and that might make it tough for guys to want to stick around without extra $$

With that being said, I do think both guys would be better this year even at OU. Just sucks OU couldn’t keep em. Moore has improved a lot.

 

[WichitaSooner]

The way he treated Oweh at the end of the year no way he was staying. Los I think just got tired of the same rag voice in his ear.

Both guys are in much better situations. Kentucky spreads everything out and Pope gives him the freedom to shoot. PM always yanked someone if they miss one or two. Last night Los was interviewed after their game with Baylor. Flat out said he wanted to be challenged to get better. Both guys get to go to the dance btw

Yep, Los said that and the broadcast again said that he took less money to go play for Sampson and Houston. Those two guys aren’t stupid. They saw their careers stall last year and knew they were playing for a guy who likely wouldn’t get them to the tournament. No brainer decision to leave.

 

[hoopsaustin]

I have no doubt about Moser’s ability to evaluate talent and recruit. But his retention is awful. And I do partly blame NIL for that. I think Moser is generally liked by his players. But I think there’s a clear lack of vision for the program and that might make it tough for guys to want to stick around without extra $$

With that being said, I do think both guys would be better this year even at OU. Just sucks OU couldn’t keep em. Moore has improved a lot.

I don't think the players like pm at all after playing for him, bc hes a spaz and has no plan on offense. Oh and he loses.. a lot

 

[BoulderSooner]

Yep, Los said that and the broadcast again said that he took less money to go play for Sampson and Houston. Those two guys aren’t stupid. They saw their careers stall last year and knew they were playing for a guy who likely wouldn’t get them to the tournament. No brainer decision to leave.

to be clear Los didn't take less money then OU was going to pay .. to go to Houston ..

 

[Final fOUr]

Yep, Los said that and the broadcast again said that he took less money to go play for Sampson and Houston. Those two guys aren’t stupid. They saw their careers stall last year and knew they were playing for a guy who likely wouldn’t get them to the tournament. No brainer decision to leave.

There was also a comment from the announcers that Sampson and his coaches felt Los was very soft and they had to toughen him up when he got there. It was very cringey to hear that as an OU fan

 

[WichitaSooner]

There was also a comment from the announcers that Sampson and his coaches felt Los was very soft and they had to toughen him up when he got there. It was very cringey to hear that as an OU fan

Los also said that there was a definite adjustment to the demands that Kelvin places on his players, especially his PGs. And last night, Bilas was praising Oweh left and right and talking about much he has improved.

 

[cowboysooner]

I don't have first hand knowledge of the situations with Oweh and Uzon, so I won't argue with anyone that says they know the circumstances. However, I have read and heard that both got appreciable better NIL deals than we offered. I also read where both were upset that Moore was valued, from an NIL standpoint, more than they were.

Haven't read this, but it wouldn't surprise me if both saw substantially better rosters at Houston and Kentucky, particularly in the frontcourt and wanted to improve their chance to win. Houston and Kentucky are both national powers. Can't blame a kid if he wants to play for a national power. Kids transfer to OU in football for the same reason.

I think the historical lack of fan support hurts both recruiting and retention. In years where we had a good team, we have always had decent to good fan support and attendance at games "in conference". Outside of a handful of special games, we have never had fan support nor attendance at non-conference games. I have been going to games since we played at the fieldhouse. Our gym sucks is part of the problem. Don't want to beat that dead horse again, but the gym is so bad other than a couple times a year I can't make myself attend a game. At my age, it is a painful experience. Unless I am low in the bowl, I might as well be watching the game on television, the seating is too small and uncomfortable. Unless you are a dwarf, you can't walk down the row from your seat to get to the aisle, and the bathrooms and concessions are only at the top of the stadium on the catwalk. The gym is a total joke. Auburn had the exact same gym, built about the same time, by the same morons, and nobody went to their games either. They built the gym they have now and sell out regularly, almost always.

If we are going to have to live with the Noble center, we are going to need a massive NIL commitment to get decent players to come to OU -- particularly bigs that are expensive. If we get a new gym, then with the right coach and at least competitive NIL, I don't see why we can't be successful.

Frankly, I don't know how much to put on any college basketball coach now, Moser included -- thus my patience with him, under the circumstances as they now exist. Late to the NIL era in basketball, low commitment to the NIL era now, and a poor gym and fan commitment. Kids commonly hit a sophomore skid and then become better players as they go through college. There is no question that Moser wanted to keep Uzon and Oweh, and if he had been able to do it, we would be better this year. There is no question that if Garrison hadn't backed out of his commitment and been bought by Kentucky, we would be better this year. How many more games might we have won. Would any of those guys have been as improved at OU, no way to know. If we had won 2-3 more SEC games, would the guys on this board be as down on Moser. If we had made the NCAA 2 of the last 3 years with the exact same records, and we plainly should and could have, would the negativity be the same for Moser.

 

[Stikboy]

I don't have first hand knowledge of the situations with Oweh and Uzon, so I won't argue with anyone that says they know the circumstances. However, I have read and heard that both got appreciable better NIL deals than we offered. I also read where both were upset that Moore was valued, from an NIL standpoint, more than they were.

Haven't read this, but it wouldn't surprise me if both saw substantially better rosters at Houston and Kentucky, particularly in the frontcourt and wanted to improve their chance to win. Houston and Kentucky are both national powers. Can't blame a kid if he wants to play for a national power. Kids transfer to OU in football for the same reason.

I think the historical lack of fan support hurts both recruiting and retention. In years where we had a good team, we have always had decent to good fan support and attendance at games "in conference". Outside of a handful of special games, we have never had fan support nor attendance at non-conference games. I have been going to games since we played at the fieldhouse. Our gym sucks is part of the problem. Don't want to beat that dead horse again, but the gym is so bad other than a couple times a year I can't make myself attend a game. At my age, it is a painful experience. Unless I am low in the bowl, I might as well be watching the game on television, the seating is too small and uncomfortable. Unless you are a dwarf, you can't walk down the row from your seat to get to the aisle, and the bathrooms and concessions are only at the top of the stadium on the catwalk. The gym is a total joke. Auburn had the exact same gym, built about the same time, by the same morons, and nobody went to their games either. They built the gym they have now and sell out regularly, almost always.

If we are going to have to live with the Noble center, we are going to need a massive NIL commitment to get decent players to come to OU -- particularly bigs that are expensive. If we get a new gym, then with the right coach and at least competitive NIL, I don't see why we can't be successful.

Frankly, I don't know how much to put on any college basketball coach now, Moser included -- thus my patience with him, under the circumstances as they now exist. Late to the NIL era in basketball, low commitment to the NIL era now, and a poor gym and fan commitment. Kids commonly hit a sophomore skid and then become better players as they go through college. There is no question that Moser wanted to keep Uzon and Oweh, and if he had been able to do it, we would be better this year. There is no question that if Garrison hadn't backed out of his commitment and been bought by Kentucky, we would be better this year. How many more games might we have won. Would any of those guys have been as improved at OU, no way to know. If we had won 2-3 more SEC games, would the guys on this board be as down on Moser. If we had made the NCAA 2 of the last 3 years with the exact same records, and we plainly should and could have, would the negativity be the same for Moser.

Only thing I would challenge is the "gyms". I don't disagree with the suckage of LN but I would argue that the reason Auburn is selling theirs out now is not because their new gym wasn't built by morons but because they are the best team in college basketball, are #1, and regularly and thoroughly dominate their opponents. If OU had the product that Auburn currently has they could play on a sandbar in the middle of the Canadian and people would show up on rafts.

 

[stormspencer]

Not quite there yet, but cratering fast.

 

[AnotherSoonerInTX]

Not quite there yet, but cratering fast.

I don't know what's worse: where we are under PM or the fear that it won't be better under another coach.

 

[stormspencer]

I don't know what's worse: where we are under PM or the fear that it won't be better under another coach.

I get what you're saying, but we are stuck in purgatory. This program isn't going to get better under the guidance of that jackass....he's had almost 4 years and we are right back where we started. We can't let fear of the unknown/future dictate not making a change because it may be worse in the short term. If we find the right guy(s), we can turn it around quickly in this day and age....it happens at a lot of places.

 

[sooner333]

While I don’t think this is rock bottom, I think I’d rather take the risk of bottoming out under someone else than keep riding this train.

 

[OUsky]

Notaburner please give us some good news in the morning.

 

[steverocks35]

If Moser was an outstanding bench coach who just doesn’t have the NIL and support to compete that would be one thing. But he’s a terrible coach with the players he has! Get someone who at least has an identity and knows how to coach in-game. Then go from there.