Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

[bgrch1350]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

This isn't just Heild. Let me give you the facts. All three of those freshmen relative to Pledger right now are quicker, more athletic, better ball handlers, better in transition, better able to take a defender off the dribble, and better defenders. That same claim can not be made relative to Cam.

Now, Pledger is a better shooter and has real Big 12 game experience. You may think that those two things alone tip the scales heavily in Pledger's favor. They don't.

Kruger was quoted as saying 2 or 3 of last years starters might be replaced. One of them is Fitz. That is already showing up. But, my guess that he is still in for big minutes. Right now, this year, Pledger is not in the same league as Cam as an all around ball player. If in fact 2 or 3 go, that leaves Grooms and Pledger. If it is 2, Pledger may hold on. He has a valuable skill. If it is 3, Pledger is gone.

Kruger has been saying about the same thing for months. And you want to just continue to ignore him. At the end of last season he said he could see a whole new starting 5. Now he has backed it down to 2/3. My advice would be to listen to the coach and take him at his word.

Kruger's statement and my consensus oberservation that of the 3 freshman Heild is currently the most game ready of the group are the basis of my opinion on this topic. Your opinion seems to be coming from an unwillingness to process new information.

I'm going to let Kruger coach the team and play whoever he wants. Then I'll sit back and hope they play well.

I like reading your analysis on practices...but if you keep talking about any of these freshmen starting over Pledger...you will lose all credibility. Pledger has a 'chance' to be 1st team all conference this year...Hield won't even make the all freshmen team in the big 12. The only chance that Hield starts is if Pledger gets hurt or gets into the doghouse. Hield may be a good player down the line...Pledger is good now and is big 12 ready. I've watched every practice online...and their is no sign that Hield is remotely as good as Pledger.

Pledger and Osby are starters...No if and or buts about it.

 

[KBaden145]

I don't know why who starts is such a big deal to some of you guys. A lot of guys are going to play. We have depth, better length, and will hopefully rebound and defend better. Who cares who starts the game doing it? 9-10 guys will play and get good minutes. Regardless of how many of the returning starters continue in that role I think it is all positive. We need the season to get started to get answers and end some of the speculation.

 

[Stikboy]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

LOL. I couldn't care less who starts. The sheer obstinance with which some of you guys argue for Pledger blows my mind. I've seen some crazy player obsessions on the football board but this takes the cake.

 

[bgrch1350]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

Uh, WT, you keep referencing what good teams do. How is what good teams do applicable to OU's current situation? I'm just trying to follow the arguement.

I don't follow recruit rankings. But, I do follow along with the conversation on the message board. I'm pretty sure the conversation was that Heild was a #75 player and Hornbeak just inside or outside of the top 100. And most everyone thought that getting players ranked like that was a pretty good deal.

On the other hand, if memory serves, wasn't Pledger ranked 120 something. If someone took much stock in rankings, wouldn't it be pretty hard to dismiss a gap like that.

Oh, when Pledger was a freshman, wasn't Willie Warren the starter. Then as a Soph, he didn't have anyone to beat out. Calvin started the season as a point guard and it was just Pledger at the #2. Then as a junior, Calvin, his only competion other than walkons was gone after 5 games.

If you want to claim that Pledger has gained some valuable experience and is a consistantly good shooter that is fine. But saying that he was a starter for TWO years as something meaningful is silly. He started by default and didn't earn anything.

Argueing defense vs offense is fine. Pick a side. Last season OU ,statistically, was one of the two worst defenses in the conference. The 5-13 record seems to validate those stats. I believe that Kruger will do everything in his power to keep that from happening again. It is a matter of pride for a guy like him. If Pledger can be a participant in a much improved defense, I'm sure that would be fine with Kruger. If a much improved defense doesn't include Pledger, I'm sure that would be fine too. It is fine with me either way. But, if defense isn't much improve, they will get smoked again no matter how many points Pledger scores. Haven't we already seen that?

You are putting way too much stock into these freshmen...you are going to have a huge let down on what they bring to the table this season. Not too mention..you are holding on way to hard to the Rivals rankings...Hield and Hornbeak isn't ranked in the top 100 in Scouts or ESPNs rankings.

 

[garyeb2]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

I like reading your analysis on practices...but if you keep talking about any of these freshmen starting over Pledger...you will lose all credibility. Pledger has a 'chance' to be 1st team all conference this year...Hield won't even make the all freshmen team in the big 12. The only chance that Hield starts is if Pledger gets hurt or gets into the doghouse. Hield may be a good player down the line...Pledger is good now and is big 12 ready. I've watched every practice online...and their is no sign that Hield is remotely as good as Pledger.

Pledger and Osby are starters...No if and or buts about it.

Ah, I see the point you are trying to make. But, I think you missed it. The opinions I express give me credibilty with the people that I'm interested in having credibility with.

 

[WTSooner]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

Uh, WT, you keep referencing what good teams do. How is what good teams do applicable to OU's current situation? I'm just trying to follow the arguement.

Because contrary to what you like to project, we weren't that far off from being a "good team" (a team that makes the Dance) last year. Having ZERO bench, and two starters that didn't shoot well was the difference. We lead a lot of games at halftime, that we lost. That isn't a talent issue. It's a depth/maturity issue. Do you not think this team is deeper and more mature than last year?

I don't follow recruit rankings. But, I do follow along with the conversation on the message board. I'm pretty sure the conversation was that Heild was a #75 player and Hornbeak just inside or outside of the top 100. And most everyone thought that getting players ranked like that was a pretty good deal.

On the other hand, if memory serves, wasn't Pledger ranked 120 something. If someone took much stock in rankings, wouldn't it be pretty hard to dismiss a gap like that.

Look, I realize that recruiting rankings aren't the end all be all. I know that. Rivals had Hield at 84 I think, and Hornbeak at 102. Scout had neither in the top 100. Same with ESPN. Doesn't mean much. But what it does SUGGEST, to me, is that they probably aren't good enough to come in and start from day 1. If you went and found a list of freshmen guards ranked outside the top 75 that came to Big 12 schools in the last 5 years, I'm guessing the number that started a significant amount of games as freshmen, for teams finishing 7th or better, is darn near zero. Those kids need time to adjust. If they didn't, if they had the talents of Hollis Price, or Marcus Smart, or some of the KU guards, that would be a different story. But we're talking about kids that aren't those guys.

The gap between #40 and #80 is much greater than the gap between #80 and #120, most years. That said, Pledger's ranking doesn't matter. He isn't a true freshman. He is a 4th year senior, with A LOT of games and experience under his belt. And like was pointed out above, the kid has a decent shot at 1st or 2nd Team All Big 12 if OU is a tournament team.

Argueing defense vs offense is fine. Pick a side. Last season OU ,statistically, was one of the two worst defenses in the conference. The 5-13 record seems to validate those stats. I believe that Kruger will do everything in his power to keep that from happening again. It is a matter of pride for a guy like him. If Pledger can be a participant in a much improved defense, I'm sure that would be fine with Kruger. If a much improved defense doesn't include Pledger, I'm sure that would be fine too. It is fine with me either way. But, if defense isn't much improve, they will get smoked again no matter how many points Pledger scores. Haven't we already seen that?

Pledger's defense isn't any where near as bad as you make it out to be. That is simply a fact. And as I've pointed out before, you don't have to be super quick, or even super athletic to be a good defender. Tim Heskett started on NCAA Tournament teams. Kelly Newton, post knee surgery, started on NCAA Tournament teams. Kevin Bookout started on NCAA Tournament teams. Renzi Stone started on NCAA Tournament teams. And as much as I LOVED Eduardo, he started at the 3 on an NCAA Tournament team. Eduardo is not quick.

You see, that is why I asked you about the team defense stuff earlier this week. If we have Pledger playing next to Grooms, Cam, and say, M'Baye, any foot speed deficiency he has can be EASILY covered up by good team defense. It happens every night in college basketball. All across the country. I agree that if we had a team full of guys with Pledger's athleticism, we'd probably be in trouble. But we don't. He is one guy. Fitz is one guy. I agree we'll be better on D if we can keep them off the court together more than last year.

You know what else will help the defense? HAVING A BENCH!!!!! Hard to defend hard the entire game when you know you have to play 37 minutes. That won't happen this year. Pledger, and all the other starters can play hard, knowing they have talented players behind them that can give them a break. We didn't have that last year, and it showed in our 2nd half meltdowns. Those weren't talent problems, they were depth problems.

 

[garyeb2]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

You are putting way too much stock into these freshmen...you are going to have a huge let down on what they bring to the table this season. Not too mention..you are holding on way to hard to the Rivals rankings...Hield and Hornbeak isn't ranked in the top 100 in Scouts or ESPNs rankings.

This post is about what Kruger said and about if what he said comes to pass who those starters might be. I don't think you can find anything that I have posted, including practice recaps, that I assert Heild will start over anyone.

I'm not holding on to any rankings. I think they are all a bunch of crap. You seem to want to grasp on to them as evidence that you know something.

I'm not sure what the freshmen will bring to the table. But, I do know what last years bunch brought to the table. And the year before that. And the year before that. Pretty slim pickings wouldn't you say.

 

[WTSooner]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

You are putting way too much stock into these freshmen...you are going to have a huge let down on what they bring to the table this season. Not too mention..you are holding on way to hard to the Rivals rankings...Hield and Hornbeak isn't ranked in the top 100 in Scouts or ESPNs rankings.

He did the same thing last year. Said Newell was going to start over Pledger. Said Arent was going to contribute, and possibly start.

This year it appears he is high on Cam. I think Cam has more to worry about than Pledger. And if M'Baye is starting in the post, like I've suggested for a very long time, then Cam has nothing to worry about either.

It isn't rocket science.

If we start Grooms/Pledger/Cam/Osby/M'Baye.....that leaves Hield and another guard to get guard minutes, and Fitz and another big to get post minutes. It works out perfectly. Love having Fitz come off the bench. He should be able to help the second unit score some, since that is what he does best.

 

[garyeb2]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

I forgot one thing and it is at the crux of our long running arguement. When you said good guard play wins in college basketball, you couldn't be more right. I agree 100%. My position is that when Pledger is on the floor, we don't have good guard play. All we have is a good shooter. Now, if that is all you have, that is a really good plan "B" But, it is never the "A" plan.

Pledger has been that bad on defense. You can say differently as many times as you want to. But, that won't change it. Just go through our roster and pick two guys that you think that you could put Pledger on and feel confident that he could get the job done. If you picked anyone else besides James F. and Jarod K. you would be wrong. Last year Fitz was constantly in foul trouble. Some of it he brought on himself because he also is a step slow. But, just as often he was trying to slip over and pick up the guy in the lane that got loose from Pledger. He is busting his butt this year in an effort to defend better. The effort may be be enough to get him by. And I would be the first to commend him for it does.

And another thing that I'm just never going to buy into. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It is my sense that you argue your positions from the perspective that Kruger believes Pledger is some valuable asset to build around. Postpone team ojectives for or adjust personel to accomadate for whatever ever shortcomings Pedger might have. I don't believe anything could be further from the truth.

This is what I think. I think he is really high on M'Baye. I think he appreciates Osby. I think he sees something in Cam. And I think he really likes his freshman guards. They are his kind of guys. He recruited them. Pledger didn't do anything last year for Kruger to earn him any kind of rank or priviledge. Just the opposite may be true. Whatever he gets in minutes or starts, he will have to earn. And he is not the lock you represent him to be.

 

[garyeb2]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

He did the same thing last year. Said Newell was going to start over Pledger. Said Arent was going to contribute, and possibly start.

This year it appears he is high on Cam. I think Cam has more to worry about than Pledger. And if M'Baye is starting in the post, like I've suggested for a very long time, then Cam has nothing to worry about either.

It isn't rocket science.

If we start Grooms/Pledger/Cam/Osby/M'Baye.....that leaves Hield and another guard to get guard minutes, and Fitz and another big to get post minutes. It works out perfectly. Love having Fitz come off the bench. He should be able to help the second unit score some, since that is what he does best.

I'm done with this post now. When you fall in with that guy, I know that you know your in trouble and have nothing constuctive left to say.

 

[skyvue]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

Pledger didn't do anything last year for Kruger to earn him any kind of rank or priviledge. Just the opposite may be true.

I'm as excited as anyone about the new guards, but your ongoing jeremiad against Pledger has gotten just silly.

Pledger was the leading scorer on the team last year by a margin of more than three points per game. I think that probably earned Kruger's respect and appreciation.

Will Pledger still have to earn his playing time? Sure, and why shouldn't he? Every player on the team should have to do that -- this year and every year.

 

[garyeb2]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

I'm as excited as anyone about the new guards, but your ongoing jeremiad against Pledger has gotten just silly.

Pledger was the leading scorer on the team last year by a margin of more than three points per game. I think that probably earned Kruger's respect and appreciation.

Will Pledger still have to earn his playing time? Sure, and why shouldn't he? Every player on the team should have to do that -- this year and every year.

A new shooter. I'm back in again. Since you want to provide some commentary, you tell me specifically where and what you think I have misstated about Pledger's abilities. I agree that Pledger is a good shooter. Some days a very good shooter. What else does he do well? Besides shoot, what do you think he can do better than than the 3 freshman guards?

I know how many points he scored last year. He got them for the most part because someone threw him the ball when he was open. There wasn't another guard to take a shot. Grooms cann't shoot and some days Cam was gosh awfull. He didn't get his points by getting out front in transition or by rolling up on a defender, juking him and blowing by. He got them by coming off screens and some by getting himself set up on the wing and getting a pass from accross the midline. He is no self generating scoring machine.

In varying degrees last years team were all a bunch of flawed underperformers. And he was one of them. You have a bunch of guys coming back that have losing as their default setting. They would defend well for 20/25 seconds and then bust. They would play well for 30 minutes and then wilt away. I'm tired of the short bench excuse. Last years team didn't have any heart. Kruger said as much on several occasions.

None of them. Including Pledger were all that much last year. They are not going to just magically rise up to a 4th place finish or ease into a little touney run. The returning players have done nothing but lose since they got here. If Kruger wins this year it will be because he has in one short year changed the culture of this team. That will have more to do with this teams result than whether Pledger or Heild start at the #2. Winning is hard. There is no big talent gap between the returning players and the incoming freshmen. The individual players that demonstrate the will and effort that it takes to win in a competitive enviroment will be the ones that play. Who scored the most points last year will have nothing to do with it.

Basketball players are like race horses and women. It is what you cann't see that really counts.

 

[bgrch1350]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

A new shooter. I'm back in again. Since you want to provide some commentary, you tell me specifically where and what you think I have misstated about Pledger's abilities. I agree that Pledger is a good shooter. Some days a very good shooter. What else does he do well? Besides shoot, what do you think he can do better than than the 3 freshman guards?

I know how many points he scored last year. He got them for the most part because someone threw him the ball when he was open. There wasn't another guard to take a shot. Grooms cann't shoot and some days Cam was gosh awfull. He didn't get his points by getting out front in transition or by rolling up on a defender, juking him and blowing by. He got them by coming off screens and some by getting himself set up on the wing and getting a pass from accross the midline. He is no self generating scoring machine.

In varying degrees last years team were all a bunch of flawed underperformers. And he was one of them. You have a bunch of guys coming back that have losing as their default setting. They would defend well for 20/25 seconds and then bust. They would play well for 30 minutes and then wilt away. I'm tired of the short bench excuse. Last years team didn't have any heart. Kruger said as much on several occasions.

None of them. Including Pledger were all that much last year. They are not going to just magically rise up to a 4th place finish or ease into a little touney run. The returning players have done nothing but lose since they got here. If Kruger wins this year it will be because he has in one short year changed the culture of this team. That will have more to do with this teams result than whether Pledger or Heild start at the #2. Winning is hard. There is no big talent gap between the returning players and the incoming freshmen. The individual players that demonstrate the will and effort that it takes to win in a competitive enviroment will be the ones that play. Who scored the most points last year will have nothing to do with it.

Basketball players are like race horses and women. It is what you cann't see that really counts.

This team had no bench last year and you won't to throw the starters under the bus. They looked a lot better with Newell coming off the bench...when he left so did OU's bench. Newell and Pledger weren't that good as freshmen..but year 2 they looked a lot better. Our freshmen are going to be the same way this year.

 

[perryj74]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

Let me see if I get this right. A freshman is going to come in and start over a senior who led the team in scoring and averaged over 16 ppg last season? If it happens then we should all be happy because it means this team is something really special, like 2nd weekend of the NCAA tournament special.

 

[KBaden145]

Let me see if I get this right. A freshman is going to come in and start over a senior who led the team in scoring and averaged over 16 ppg last season? If it happens then we should all be happy because it means this team is something really special, like 2nd weekend of the NCAA tournament special.

This...

 

[luckyc1423]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

Let me see if I get this right. A freshman is going to come in and start over a senior who led the team in scoring and averaged over 16 ppg last season? If it happens then we should all be happy because it means this team is something really special, like 2nd weekend of the NCAA tournament special.

How good was our team last year? In my opinion pledger scored by default. We had noone else to take the primary scoring role. Osby to me is not a primary scorer, he gets his points off of hustle, rebounds...ect...and a few missmatches

We will be best if pledger shoots less this year and scores around 10 points per game. Because that means we have found another primary scorer.

 

[WTSooner]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

How good was our team last year? In my opinion pledger scored by default. We had noone else to take the primary scoring role. Osby to me is not a primary scorer, he gets his points off of hustle, rebounds...ect...and a few missmatches

We will be best if pledger shoots less this year and scores around 10 points per game. Because that means we have found another primary scorer.

That implies that Pledger didn't score the ball efficiently, which is no true.

Pledger had a VERY good season last year, offensively. And with more weapons around him, and reserves that will allow him to take a breather at times, I expect him to be every bit as efficient this season, if not more so.

 

[garyeb2]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

This team had no bench last year and you won't to throw the starters under the bus. They looked a lot better with Newell coming off the bench...when he left so did OU's bench. Newell and Pledger weren't that good as freshmen..but year 2 they looked a lot better. Our freshmen are going to be the same way this year.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not over hyping the freshmen. I don't know how I could have been more plain. I have said nothing other than Cousins and Heild looked quite skilled but as of right now unready. Heild looked the most ready and there was something really good there. But, I didn't know how long it would take.

If Kruger's statement turns out to be valid, and two of them start, that would be a commentary on the returning players. Remember now, this is about what Kruger reportedly said. You said it would be Fitz, Cam, and Grooms to the bench. I said if Kruger turns out to be right about his speculation that it would be Fitz, Grooms, and Pledger.

And then here comes the blowback. I don't know how many times we have to go through this. I am willing to state an opinion. If someone wants to pop off and challenge that opinion, that is fine. But, I'm also willing to defend that opinion. People don't seem to like that.

I'm saying that last season Pledger was the weakest link on a bad defensive team. Do you agree with that or do you not agree with that. If it wasn't Pledger who was it? Why do you think that? I'm saying that any of the freshmen would be an upgrade over the weakest link. Do you agree with that or not? If not, why?

I'm saying that Pledger has a valuable skill and is showing much better effort in areas that he is deficient. Do you agree with that or not? I am saying that the freshmen are all quicker and more athletic that Pledger. How do you feel about that one? I am saying that even right now as freshmen, they are better ball handlers and more able to take a defender off the dribble than Pledger. You have been watching Pledger for 3 yrs and practices for a week. You have to agree with that one don't you?

And in the last post I am saying that excuses are a losers way out of taking responsibility for their results. Over the last 3 years OU has had poor results in conference play because most of the other teams had better players. In the 1st two of those 3 years most of the other teams had both better players and coaching. It is no more complicated than that.

Things aren't going to go very well for a team in the Big 12 if the point guard can not shoot and the #2 guard can not do anything but shoot and the #3 takes entire games off on one end of the court or the other and our man in the middle can not rebound. A short bench was the least of the problems last year.

If any of the freshmen start it will have just as much to do with the flawed nature of the returnees as it does with what they bring. Are you clear on my position now?

 

[campbest]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

I know how many points he scored last year. He got them for the most part because someone threw him the ball when he was open. There wasn't another guard to take a shot. Grooms cann't shoot and some days Cam was gosh awfull. He didn't get his points by getting out front in transition or by rolling up on a defender, juking him and blowing by. He got them by coming off screens and some by getting himself set up on the wing and getting a pass from accross the midline.He is no self generating scoring machine.

That's called good basketball.

We don't want five ball stoppers out there playing the "DO HIM" offense every time down the floor.

 

[WTSooner]

Re: Kruger says "2 or 3" of last year's starters may not start this year

Facts about last year's team:

- It is true that we finished towards the bottom of the Big 12 in defense. According to Ken Pom, our Adjusted D had us 91st in the country, and 7th out of the 10 Big 12 teams. Mizzou had a worse efficiency ranking than OU.

- We were also just as bad offensively, worse in some ways. According to Ken Pom, our Adjusted O had us 127th in the country, and 8th out of the 10 Big 12 teams. The only two teams that finished lower than us in the Big 12 in this ranking, were also below us in the final standings.

So defense wasn't our biggest issue. In a lot of ways, offense was a bigger problem. Benching our most efficient scorer isn't going to help that.