Next Two Games

pnkranger

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Are wake up calls for conference play if we can't get our defense in order. Ken Pom currently rates our defense as #181, forty places behind the second worst defense in the Big 12.

Kruger might have to slow it down just a bit...
 
He isnt going to slow anything down. Mark that off your list. Defense will be fine.
 
Like it has been up to this point?

When we try to score so fast other teams are going to score more points as well. isnt 60-50 the same win as 90-80?

You cant score like we do and hold people in the 40-50's... It wont happen.
 
When we try to score so fast other teams are going to score more points as well. isnt 60-50 the same win as 90-80?

No, it's not. Really?

In a 60-50 game there are a limited number of possessions for a team to make up that 10 points. In a 90-80 game, there are significantly more chances for the other team to make up that 10 points.

Winning by 10 in a slow game is more impressive than winning by 10 in a fast game. At the speed we play now, a team could wipe out a 10 point deficit in less than a minute. Heck, didn't UTA score 7 points in something like 30 seconds, and we only turned it over once during that time?
 
Kruger might have to slow it down just a bit...

I don't know that he will slow us down, but I think better competition will. Either intentionally (making an effort to play slower), or simply b/c the better teams we'll play will be coached to take better shots, which will draw out the shot clock some. I don't see any way we keep up this pace throughout the Big 12 games, but we will still play pretty darn fast.
 
Fans who wanted to see a return of Billy Ball got their wish. We're playing fast and scoring a lot of points, but so are our opponents.

I was a huge OU basketball fan when Billy was our coach. But, to be honest, I never thought any of his teams except the '88 squad played good defense. I would like to have a dollar for every time I saw a Tubbs coached team give up an easy bucket on the defensive end so they could get the ball back to score more points.

The '88 team was the best I have ever seen at executing a full-court press. But when the NC was on the line against KU, they didn't do enough to stop Manning and it cost us.
 
When we try to score so fast other teams are going to score more points as well. isnt 60-50 the same win as 90-80?

You cant score like we do and hold people in the 40-50's... It wont happen.

I'm not worried about the other teams # of points, I'm worried about defensive efficiency and scoring margin. Just because you're going fast doesn't mean that every team you play should shoot 50% from the floor.
 
I agree that defense has been bad, and was really bad last night, but UTA hit some incredible shots yesterday. IMO, they probably should've had 75-80 points. Still, that's not great defense, but let's not forget that they hit some really tough shots. And even the best teams in the country wouldn't hit some of those. Just a case of if you play a team that shoots a bunch of 3's and they get hot, you're in for a long night. Happy we got the win.
 
I wish one of you constant critics would explain to me when you got the idea that this team was so good that any win was a bad win or needed to be picked apart.

You guys never give any consideration to the fact that our team has limitations that can be exploited by the opposing coach. Our opponents often times have good players that are capable of having a good game. Wasn't last night's opponent averaging about 82 points a game and have player averaging 22 points? Both their best player and the team had a little better than average game. Whoop De Do.

Every coin has two sides. You want a better Ken Pom defensive rating. Fine, but, at what cost? Would it be worth it to have a couple of Cam, Buddy, Spangler, or Woodard on the bench fouled out with 5 minutes to go? With Hornbeak out, you can throw Cousins in that group.

OU's defense is out of whack and balance. They are not challenging shots at the rim or getting into their man on the perimeter aggressively enough. With the new rules, a notch up in aggression will increase the fouls. A perfect balance would be if every starter finished the game with exactly four fouls. But, we are not good enough or deep enough to have any of our starters foul out. They were a little too soft and left fouls on the table last night. We don't have any major short coming on defense. It is nothing more than nuance and balance.
 
I wish one of you constant critics would explain to me when you got the idea that this team was so good that any win was a bad win or needed to be picked apart.

You guys never give any consideration to the fact that our team has limitations that can be exploited by the opposing coach. Our opponents often times have good players that are capable of having a good game. Wasn't last night's opponent averaging about 82 points a game and have player averaging 22 points? Both their best player and the team had a little better than average game. Whoop De Do.

Every coin has two sides. You want a better Ken Pom defensive rating. Fine, but, at what cost? Would it be worth it to have a couple of Cam, Buddy, Spangler, or Woodard on the bench fouled out with 5 minutes to go? With Hornbeak out, you can throw Cousins in that group.

OU's defense is out of whack and balance. They are not challenging shots at the rim or getting into their man on the perimeter aggressively enough. With the new rules, a notch up in aggression will increase the fouls. A perfect balance would be if every starter finished the game with exactly four fouls. But, we are not good enough or deep enough to have any of our starters foul out. They were a little too soft and left fouls on the table last night. We don't have any major short coming on defense. It is nothing more than nuance and balance.

I fully agree with this. The coaches took the new rules and have gone almost too far with it. But I think a lot of that has to do with them not wanting our players in foul trouble because they know we can't afford for that to happen. And I don't blame them. It's either play better defense and probably lose some key guys at the end of the game, or keep playing how we're playing and just try to out score them.
 
When we try to score so fast other teams are going to score more points as well. isnt 60-50 the same win as 90-80?

You cant score like we do and hold people in the 40-50's... It wont happen.

There's a big difference in holding a team in the 40s and allowing 90 in back-to-back home games against awful teams.
 
I fully agree with this. The coaches took the new rules and have gone almost too far with it. But I think a lot of that has to do with them not wanting our players in foul trouble because they know we can't afford for that to happen. And I don't blame them. It's either play better defense and probably lose some key guys at the end of the game, or keep playing how we're playing and just try to out score them.

I wanted to add one more thought. Our team's job right now is NOT to play the best defense that they can. Their job is to play the best defense that they can without getting into foul trouble. Without Spangler, Woodard, Buddy, or Cam we are exposed to the liability of losing to just about anyone left on our schedule. With all of our starters on the floor we have a shot to beat almost every one we play.
 
I wanted to add one more thought. Our team's job right now is NOT to play the best defense that they can. Their job is to play the best defense that they can without getting into foul trouble. Without Spangler, Woodard, Buddy, or Cam we are exposed to the liability of losing to just about anyone left on our schedule. With all of our starters on the floor we have a shot to beat almost every one we play.

wonderful point
 
I'm not worried about the other teams # of points, I'm worried about defensive efficiency and scoring margin. Just because you're going fast doesn't mean that every team you play should shoot 50% from the floor.

If they play defense like you want them to at the point, Folks are going to foul out. Its easier to tighten the reins later then try to pull back after you've gone too far.

WE have limits as a team. We cant afford to get in foul trouble, so giving up a few easy baskets are better than fouling.
 
No, it's not. Really?

In a 60-50 game there are a limited number of possessions for a team to make up that 10 points. In a 90-80 game, there are significantly more chances for the other team to make up that 10 points.

Winning by 10 in a slow game is more impressive than winning by 10 in a fast game. At the speed we play now, a team could wipe out a 10 point deficit in less than a minute. Heck, didn't UTA score 7 points in something like 30 seconds, and we only turned it over once during that time?

You want to play fast or slow... You cant have both all the time. There are breakdowns, but not nearly as many as you think.
 
I wanted to add one more thought. Our team's job right now is NOT to play the best defense that they can. Their job is to play the best defense that they can without getting into foul trouble. Without Spangler, Woodard, Buddy, or Cam we are exposed to the liability of losing to just about anyone left on our schedule. With all of our starters on the floor we have a shot to beat almost every one we play.

I have been a part of this board since day one, and I am NOT a constant critic year to year. This year I have been pretty consistently critical of this team on defense, but I'm not blind to impact of pace or the rules or our lack of depth. I posted the following in last night's game thread:

"We're good enough to score on anybody, but we're not deep enough to keep the defensive pressure up for 40 minutes...Combine that with youthful gambling and reaching and forgotten assignments, and we are just downright poor on defense."

I'm okay with high scoring games, just not okay with wide open looks under the basket, not closing out on three point shooters, not stopping the ball in transition, etc. Will we be better when Hornbeak comes back? Absolutely. All I'm saying is that if we don't get better -- and quick -- on defense, then we're going to start the Big 12 season in a hole.
 
In response to the points about tempo:

We allow 77 points per game with a soft schedule -- worst in the Big 12 by 8 points per game.

  • Iowa State, tops in the Big 12 in scoring, allows 69 points per game with a tougher schedule.
  • Oklahoma State, third in scoring (after us), allows 62 points per game.

It's not just about margin, but it's the ability to make a defensive stop when you need it against a good team. That's what worries me the most.
 
You want to play fast or slow... You cant have both all the time. There are breakdowns, but not nearly as many as you think.

I really don't care what speed we play at. Just play it well, at both ends.

I will say this, I think in today's game, it's difficult to be a really good defensive team playing at the pace we currently are.

And I also disagree about the breakdowns. There are quite a few. Some bigger than others, obviously, but we aren't doing a lot right on defense right now.

As for the point about not playing good defense b/c we cannot afford guys to foul out? Eh. Maybe. I bet there are some roster-size limited teams out there playing good defense though. And that isn't an excuse for getting blown by at half court, not finding your man, or having terrible rotations that leave guys wide open jumpers.

Coach said it himself after the game last night, we aren't doing what we need to do on that end of the court.
 
I also hope that negative comment wasn't directed at me. I haven't been negative at all about this team. I'm concerned with our defense, yes. But the team, and the offense, has probably exceeded my expectations that I had for them, to this point. Not so much record-wise, but how they've competed and scored the ball. Doesn't mean I can't expect better defense from them though.
 
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