Question about 10 Second Call

[StatGeek]

Was that the right call? The ball was clearly over the line well before 10 seconds had passed, but I'm not sure if Neal caught the ball before the time has elapsed. Is the Neal catch even relevant? Not sure I have seen that call go down like that before. Just curious.

 

[AdaSooner]

I'm not absolutely certain of my answer, but I believe that was the correct call for the following reason. The ten second count continues until the ball touches a player on the other side of the midcourt line. Just getting the ball across is not enough to stop the count.

Maybe someone like usedtobe1, campbest or another old timer like me, oketex, can confirm if my answer is correct.

 

[earlpearl]

I'm not absolutely certain of my answer, but I believe that was the correct call for the following reason. The ten second count continues until the ball touches a player on the other side of the midcourt line. Just getting the ball across is not enough to stop the count.

Maybe someone like usedtobe1, campbest or another old timer like me, oketex, can confirm if my answer is correct.

The ball has to be under control of the player across the half line.

 

[StatGeek]

The ball has to be under control of the player across the half line.

Thanks

 

[AdaSooner]

The ball has to be under control of the player across the half line.

Why would a player have to control the ball? If it touches another player on the other side, even a defensive player, it is immediately considered to be in the frontcourt. I'm still not sure if the count stops when the ball crosses the midcourt line, or it has to be touched by someone? But nothing about control makes sense to me.

Then again, I could be wrong. If so, I'll give it up to you for knowing the rule. I don't pay nearly as much attention to the rules as I did when I was officiating many moons ago.

 

[JBaker]

The ball was in Neal's control with the shot clock at 25 seconds.
It was a bad call.

 

[usedtobe1]

The ball is still considered to be in the backcourt until the ball bounces in the frontcourt or hits a player who is considered to be in the frontcourt. Note that if a player is in the air and sails across the midcourt line but his feet last touched the backcourt, he is not considered to be in the frontcourt until his feet touch the ground in the frontcourt. It doesn't matter where the ball passed the midcourt line in the air.

If a team calls a timeout before 10 seconds has expired and hasn't gotten the ball across midcourt, the 10 second count starts over but the shot clock doesn't when play resumes. The 10 second count doesn't start until a player gains control on a rebound or touches the ball on a throw in.

Another misunderstood part of the rule is a player in possession of the ball can get a foot across the line and even dribble the ball in the frontcourt, but if he still has a foot in the backcourt, he is considered to be in the backcourt. All 3 points have to be in the frontcourt: both feet and the ball. If the player is dribbling the ball and only 2 of those things are across and one isn't he is considered to be in the backcourt.

Only 1 of those 3 things have to be in the backcourt for a backcourt violation to occur after the play has moved to the frontcourt (e.g. foot touches the midcourt line).

 

[AdaSooner]

The ball is still considered to be in the backcourt until the ball bounces in the frontcourt or hits a player who is considered to be in the frontcourt. Note that if a player is in the air and sails across the midcourt line but his feet last touched the backcourt, he is not considered to be in the frontcourt until his feet touch the ground in the frontcourt. It doesn't matter where the ball passed the midcourt line in the air.

If a team calls a timeout before 10 seconds has expired and hasn't gotten the ball across midcourt, the 10 second count starts over but the shot clock doesn't when play resumes. The 10 second count doesn't start until a player gains control on a rebound or touches the ball on a throw in.

Another misunderstood part of the rule is a player in possession of the ball can get a foot across the line and even dribble the ball in the frontcourt, but if he still has a foot in the backcourt, he is considered to be in the backcourt. All 3 points have to be in the frontcourt: both feet and the ball. If the player is dribbling the ball and only 2 of those things are across and one isn't he is considered to be in the backcourt.

Only 1 of those 3 things have to be in the backcourt for a backcourt violation to occur after the play has moved to the frontcourt (e.g. foot touches the midcourt line).

So, the 10 second count doesn't stop until a player in the frontcourt touches the ball. Control is not part of the equation, simply touching it stops the count. Is that correct?

I'm glad you brought up the commonly misunderstood "over and back" violation. The three point rule has been in effect for 25 years or more, but fans still think a violation occurred when one foot and/or the ball crosses the midcourt line and returns to the backcourt. Fans at high school and college games continue to yell and scream when that happens, believing the officials missed a call. lol

 

[usedtobe1]

Was that the right call? The ball was clearly over the line well before 10 seconds had passed, but I'm not sure if Neal caught the ball before the time has elapsed. Is the Neal catch even relevant? Not sure I have seen that call go down like that before. Just curious.

It's all about when Neal touched the ball. Here's the rule (4-4-3):

4-4-2
A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

4-4-3
A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

4-4-4
A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

 

[usedtobe1]

So, the 10 second count doesn't stop until a player in the frontcourt touches the ball. Control is not part of the equation, simply touching it stops the count. Is that correct?

Correct. Control isn't relevant. Contact is. Note that it doesn't have to touch a player (offense or defense) or the official. It can just bounce in the frontcourt on a pass. It the pass to Neal was a bounce pass, the 10 second count is supposed to stop when it hits the frontcourt. I not sure if all officials call it that way.

4-4-2
A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

4-4-3
A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

4-4-4
A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

 

[SuperHoops]

The ball was in Neal's control with the shot clock at 25 seconds.
It was a bad call.

Well as soon as the clock hits 25 it's a violation. Did Neal have the ball at 26?

 

[campbest]

As long as you think of the backcourt violation in regards to the three-point rule, you can never get it wrong. Ball has to touch something (floor) or someone to establish frontcourt status.

Tough play, with the NCAA doing away with the backcourt count and only using the shot clock, 10 seconds should be more accurate. However, then you have a trail official watching on ball defense and the far shot clock which can be difficult.

 

[tycat947]

I believe the announcers stated that this year the officials used the clock to determine the 10 second violation as opposed to them counting previously. As close as this was it could have been the difference in a violation being called and not being called.

 

[AdaSooner]

Well as soon as the clock hits 25 it's a violation. Did Neal have the ball at 26?

The replay showed the clock was at 24 seconds. If so, the call was correct. All I know for sure is that I was yelling "get the ball over the line," because it was obvious time was running out. The pass went to Tyler, he caught it and scored, but the official waved it off.

As long as you think of the backcourt violation in regards to the three-point rule, you can never get it wrong. Ball has to touch something (floor) or someone to establish frontcourt status.

Tough play, with the NCAA doing away with the backcourt count and only using the shot clock, 10 seconds should be more accurate. However, then you have a trail official watching on ball defense and the far shot clock which can be difficult.

Excellent point. I'll add one more thing to the trail official's duties. He not only has to watch on ball defense and the shot clock on the far end, he has to match the countdown on the shot clock with the exact moment the ball touched something or someone in the front court. Seems to me that makes his job even tougher than it used to be.

 

[JBaker]

The replay showed the clock was at 24 seconds. If so, the call was correct. All I know for sure is that I was yelling "get the ball over the line," because it was obvious time was running out. The pass went to Tyler, he caught it and scored, but the official waved it off.

A terrible resolution upload of a photo I took while watching the game shows Neal going up for the layup already with the clock still at 25:

I didn't check to see if he had touched the ball by 26, nor do I know if the clock has to be at 25 or 26.

 

[AdaSooner]

A terrible resolution upload of a photo I took while watching the game shows Neal going up for the layup already with the clock still at 25:

I didn't check to see if he had touched the ball by 26, nor do I know if the clock has to be at 25 or 26.

Interesting! The 24 seconds the television replay showed must have been when the official blew his whistle. If Tyler already had the ball in his hands at the 25 second mark, as your photo seems to show, I think it's reasonable to assume that he touched it at around the 26 seconds mark. That is, unless I'm missing something we can't see in the photo.

Nice job on the pic!

 

[DenverSooner]

So not only did they give KSU the ball they effectively took 2 points away.

That, along with the other bad calls really has a big impact on that game. Cam was clearly fouled going to the rim. That should be two free throws. At least two balls were off KSU and called off OU.

I am not one to blame the officials because I think bad calls are part of the game but it does make a close loss like this even more frustrating.

 

[StatGeek]

A terrible resolution upload of a photo I took while watching the game shows Neal going up for the layup already with the clock still at 25:

I didn't check to see if he had touched the ball by 26, nor do I know if the clock has to be at 25 or 26.

I see that you were actually able to watch this game!!

 

[JBaker]

I see that you were actually able to watch this game!!

I broke my contract and switched to DirecTV a few weeks ago.
Also all the conference games are on the ESPN networks so I would have gotten them anyway.

 

[soonerczech]

Some other general questions on calls. With Jordan's foul on the 3 at the end of the half, when is a player no longer in the shooting motion? Granted, Jordan shouldn't have tried to block the shot from behind, but it appeared he only hit the guy's hand well after the ball had been released and did not impede any part of the shot.