Roster and Contribution analysis

[WichitaSooner]

Why is 67 year old Lon Kruger our head coach still? What is the end game? What are we building towards? It just makes no sense to me. Lon did a great job of stabilizing the program. He made a ton of money doing it, and we can give him a nice golden parachute on his way out. But go get your next guy to lead this program.

Lol at your use of stabilizing. He took over a dumpster fire and got us to the Sweet 16 and a FF in no time. Since then, things have obviously dropped off, but even then, he has managed to keep us in the tournament. Name some coaches out there who would realistically be upgrades...and don't give me Self or K or Izzo or the handful of other guys who wouldn't consider coming to Norman. People always seem to get fired up by trendy, young coaches who have a couple really good seasons. They conveniently overlook the fact that for many of those coaches, those couple years are the only sustained success they have. There are tons of P5 school who would kill to have the results we have had during our current "down" cycle.

 

[sperry]

Lol at your use of stabilizing. He took over a dumpster fire and got us to the Sweet 16 and a FF in no time. Since then, things have obviously dropped off, but even then, he has managed to keep us in the tournament. Name some coaches out there who would realistically be upgrades...and don't give me Self or K or Izzo or the handful of other guys who wouldn't consider coming to Norman. People always seem to get fired up by trendy, young coaches who have a couple really good seasons. They conveniently overlook the fact that for many of those coaches, those couple years are the only sustained success they have. There are tons of P5 school who would kill to have the results we have had during our current "down" cycle.

As usual, you completely miss the point. He was brought in to stabilize the program, and that's what he did. The fact that we got a final four out of the deal is pure gravy. But he is 67 years old. What are you building towards with Lon Kruger? It would be one thing if he had things rolling and you say sure, let's let this guy coach out another 3-4 years and see what he can accomplish. That's not the case. We've been in a rebuild since Buddy left, and it's not going well. The Trae year was a lot of fun, but we limped into the tournament and were one and done. Last year we again limped in simply because it was one of the worst fields in the history of the tournament. We don't look like a tournament team this year, and if we do sneak in, we're not a team that's going to be a threat to make a run. It's not even like you've got a bunch of young guys playing well and can say "we're a year away from something really good"; the only guys producing are two juniors and a senior.

So again, what is your end game? What does keeping Lon around for the twilight of his coaching career accomplish? Why are we delaying getting the guy to lead our program for the next decade? As said earlier, Lon did a great job stabilizing this program, but he's not some OU legend who deserves the right to stick around past his prime. We needed a respected leader to turn the ship around, and he did just that, and got paid handsomely for it.

As for who you bring in, I'm not sure, but that's why you have a highly compensated athletic director. The upside isn't there with Lon, and he hasn't done a good job of keeping the floor up either.

 

[WichitaSooner]

As usual, you completely miss the point. He was brought in to stabilize the program, and that's what he did. The fact that we got a final four out of the deal is pure gravy. But he is 67 years old. What are you building towards with Lon Kruger? It would be one thing if he had things rolling and you say sure, let's let this guy coach out another 3-4 years and see what he can accomplish. That's not the case. We've been in a rebuild since Buddy left, and it's not going well. The Trae year was a lot of fun, but we limped into the tournament and were one and done. Last year we again limped in simply because it was one of the worst fields in the history of the tournament. We don't look like a tournament team this year, and if we do sneak in, we're not a team that's going to be a threat to make a run. It's not even like you've got a bunch of young guys playing well and can say "we're a year away from something really good"; the only guys producing are two juniors and a senior.

So again, what is your end game? What does keeping Lon around for the twilight of his coaching career accomplish? Why are we delaying getting the guy to lead our program for the next decade? As said earlier, Lon did a great job stabilizing this program, but he's not some OU legend who deserves the right to stick around past his prime. We needed a respected leader to turn the ship around, and he did just that, and got paid handsomely for it.

As for who you bring in, I'm not sure, but that's why you have a highly compensated athletic director. The upside isn't there with Lon, and he hasn't done a good job of keeping the floor up either.

If you don't think a floor which entails consistent NCAA berths is pretty high, you don't pay attention to the rest of the country. Few programs are in as good a shape as we are from that standpoint. I think you and others have valid concerns about the ceiling, but I don't think he has done anything that would remotely justify firing him, which is what you seem to advocate. If we miss the tourney the next couple years, maybe Joe C would have a reason to encourage him to retire, but until that actually happens, that's just speculation.

 

[sperry]

If you don't think a floor which entails consistent NCAA berths is pretty high, you don't pay attention to the rest of the country. Few programs are in as good a shape as we are from that standpoint. I think you and others have valid concerns about the ceiling, but I don't think he has done anything that would remotely justify firing him, which is what you seem to advocate. If we miss the tourney the next couple years, maybe Joe C would have a reason to encourage him to retire, but until that actually happens, that's just speculation.

You are ignoring the big picture. What are you building towards? Lon is 67. He doesn't have us on the brink of great things right now, we're in a rebuild. Why is he the right person to lead that rebuild? It's like being in a relationship that's just okay and not ending it because it could be worse. Lon was the right guy for the job 9 years ago, and he did a great job. He's not the right guy any longer given the current state of the program and his age. If he was 57 it would be a completely different story.

 

[Soonerinkc]

My 2 cents:

Hill better than victor....def offensively. Damn victor looks like he’s never played b-ball... not smooth at all.

Hill does a lot of little things, that I’ve seen since he’s played.

If 7/8/9 should only play 2/3 min in spurts.... WHY THE HELL does Kruger do this mass subbing? That infuriates me more than anything.

 

[WichitaSooner]

You are ignoring the big picture. What are you building towards? Lon is 67. He doesn't have us on the brink of great things right now, we're in a rebuild. Why is he the right person to lead that rebuild? It's like being in a relationship that's just okay and not ending it because it could be worse. Lon was the right guy for the job 9 years ago, and he did a great job. He's not the right guy any longer given the current state of the program and his age. If he was 57 it would be a completely different story.

I think you are the one ignoring the big picture. The bottom line is you are suggesting that our AD fire Lon, and nothing that has or hasn't happened justifies that. You act like this could just happen in a vacuum and Lon would magically disappear. If Joe fired a coach with Lon's track record, how many coaches would feel comfortable taking the job? We aren't a blue blood, and most coaches want to know that they won't be held to unrealistic expectations. Not many would want to go someplace where making the tournament virtually every season isn't enough, especially when one year ended in the Final Four, especially when that school and its fanbase treat basketball like an afterthought.

 

[daqman]

You are ignoring the big picture. What are you building towards? Lon is 67. He doesn't have us on the brink of great things right now, we're in a rebuild. Why is he the right person to lead that rebuild? It's like being in a relationship that's just okay and not ending it because it could be worse. Lon was the right guy for the job 9 years ago, and he did a great job. He's not the right guy any longer given the current state of the program and his age. If he was 57 it would be a completely different story.

Problem is we shouldn't be rebuilding at this point. Lon didn't capitalize on the final 4 season wrt recruiting. Plus too many busts.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Problem is we shouldn't be rebuilding at this point. Lon didn't capitalize on the final 4 season wrt recruiting. Plus too many busts.

This seems to be one of the most common themes of people who are especially unhappy. If you look at recent FF participants and don't count the blue bloods, you'll find teams like Oregon, S Carolina, Wisconsin, VCU, WSU, Florida, Ohio State, and Syracuse. Few, if any, really took off after their appearances. Most, like us, have taken a step back. That doesn't mean I am ok with us not doing better, but it sure suggests that building on a FF is much tougher than many think. Also, after Hollis and Quannas graduated, Kelvin's last three seasons produced one missed tourney and one total NCAA win. For all those who think our current coach is a big step down from Sampson...were you ready to run him out the door at that point?

 

[hoopsaustin]

This seems to be one of the most common themes of people who are especially unhappy. If you look at recent FF participants and don't count the blue bloods, you'll find teams like Oregon, S Carolina, Wisconsin, VCU, WSU, Florida, Ohio State, and Syracuse. Few, if any, really took off after their appearances. Most, like us, have taken a step back. That doesn't mean I am ok with us not doing better, but it sure suggests that building on a FF is much tougher than many think. Also, after Hollis and Quannas graduated, Kelvin's last three seasons produced one missed tourney and one total NCAA win. For all those who think our current coach is a big step down from Sampson...were you ready to run him out the door at that point?

Sampson was an outstanding coach. His only issue was managing players egos and not being a little softer with them sometimes

 

[sperry]

This seems to be one of the most common themes of people who are especially unhappy. If you look at recent FF participants and don't count the blue bloods, you'll find teams like Oregon, S Carolina, Wisconsin, VCU, WSU, Florida, Ohio State, and Syracuse. Few, if any, really took off after their appearances. Most, like us, have taken a step back. That doesn't mean I am ok with us not doing better, but it sure suggests that building on a FF is much tougher than many think. Also, after Hollis and Quannas graduated, Kelvin's last three seasons produced one missed tourney and one total NCAA win. For all those who think our current coach is a big step down from Sampson...were you ready to run him out the door at that point?

Let's take a look at each of these programs.

Oregon won the conference tournament and made the sweet 16 two years later. Three years later they're ranked in the top 10.

South Carolina is and always has been a terrible program. They had a miracle run with a team that had no business being in the final four, and they've returned to business as usual.

Wisconsin lost their head coach and replaced them with a guy who isn't very good. Even with that, they made two straight Sweet 16s.

VCU has turned into one of the premier mid-major teams, is consistently ranked and makes the tournament basically every year.

Wichita State has kept right on rolling after making the final four, including an undefeated regular season and #1 seed at FREAKING WICHITA STATE the next year.

Lon left Florida, and the youngblood they replaced them with turned Florida into a top 5 program over a 20 year period.

Mentioning Ohio State really cracks me up. They made the final four in 07, and then had a two year dropoff. They proceeded to make two straight sweet 16s, followed by another final four and an elite 8. The head coach that put this run together let the program drop off in the 4 years following the second final four, and you know what Ohio State did? They fired him, brought someone new in, and are currently ranked in the top 5 two years after making that necessary change.

Not sure what on earth Syracuse is doing on this list. They were a premiere program for 30 years, including 5 final fours and an NCAA tournament win. 75 year old Jim Boeheim appears to be at the end of the line, but unlike Lon, has earned the right to stay at that program until he drops dead.

So, essentially every single one of these programs, minus South Carolina, had significantly more success in the aftermath of making the Final Four than what Lon has done.

Bringing up Kelvin is laughable. In his last three years we finished 7th in the Big XII, T-1st in the Big XII, and 3rd in the Big XII. Yeah, the NCAA results weren't there, but the program was in great shape. We had the best recruiting class in program history on its way when Kelvin bounced.


You mentioned "what coach would take the job if we pushed Lon out" above. In the last 3 years, we've finished in the bottom half of the conference all three years, have won zero conference tournament games, and won one NCAA tournament game. Barring a miraculous turnaround this year, you're going to have four straight finishes in the bottom half of the conference and two NCAA tourney appearances as low seeds in four seasons. No, we're not a blue blood, but it several levels below where this program is historically, and any coach who does that deserves to be shown the door.


None of your narratives are supported by the facts.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Sampson was an outstanding coach. His only issue was managing players egos and not being a little softer with them sometimes

I love Kelvin. He was and is a great coach. I've never suggested otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that our program clearly didn't continue improving after the group that got us to the FF was gone, and that is the specific criticism of Lon that I was responding to.

 

[daqman]

Let's take a look at each of these programs.

Oregon won the conference tournament and made the sweet 16 two years later. Three years later they're ranked in the top 10.

South Carolina is and always has been a terrible program. They had a miracle run with a team that had no business being in the final four, and they've returned to business as usual.

Wisconsin lost their head coach and replaced them with a guy who isn't very good. Even with that, they made two straight Sweet 16s.

VCU has turned into one of the premier mid-major teams, is consistently ranked and makes the tournament basically every year.

Wichita State has kept right on rolling after making the final four, including an undefeated regular season and #1 seed at FREAKING WICHITA STATE the next year.

Lon left Florida, and the youngblood they replaced them with turned Florida into a top 5 program over a 20 year period.

Mentioning Ohio State really cracks me up. They made the final four in 07, and then had a two year dropoff. They proceeded to make two straight sweet 16s, followed by another final four and an elite 8. The head coach that put this run together let the program drop off in the 4 years following the second final four, and you know what Ohio State did? They fired him, brought someone new in, and are currently ranked in the top 5 two years after making that necessary change.

Not sure what on earth Syracuse is doing on this list. They were a premiere program for 30 years, including 5 final fours and an NCAA tournament win. 75 year old Jim Boeheim appears to be at the end of the line, but unlike Lon, has earned the right to stay at that program until he drops dead.

So, essentially every single one of these programs, minus South Carolina, had significantly more success in the aftermath of making the Final Four than what Lon has done.

Bringing up Kelvin is laughable. In his last three years we finished 7th in the Big XII, T-1st in the Big XII, and 3rd in the Big XII. Yeah, the NCAA results weren't there, but the program was in great shape. We had the best recruiting class in program history on its way when Kelvin bounced.


You mentioned "what coach would take the job if we pushed Lon out" above. In the last 3 years, we've finished in the bottom half of the conference all three years, have won zero conference tournament games, and won one NCAA tournament game. Barring a miraculous turnaround this year, you're going to have four straight finishes in the bottom half of the conference and two NCAA tourney appearances as low seeds in four seasons. No, we're not a blue blood, but it several levels below where this program is historically, and any coach who does that deserves to be shown the door.


None of your narratives are supported by the facts.

Thanks for compiling the facts. Unfortunately it probably won't convince people like Wichita.
It's time for Lon to retire.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Let's take a look at each of these programs.

Oregon won the conference tournament and made the sweet 16 two years later. Three years later they're ranked in the top 10.

South Carolina is and always has been a terrible program. They had a miracle run with a team that had no business being in the final four, and they've returned to business as usual.

Wisconsin lost their head coach and replaced them with a guy who isn't very good. Even with that, they made two straight Sweet 16s.

VCU has turned into one of the premier mid-major teams, is consistently ranked and makes the tournament basically every year.

Wichita State has kept right on rolling after making the final four, including an undefeated regular season and #1 seed at FREAKING WICHITA STATE the next year.

Lon left Florida, and the youngblood they replaced them with turned Florida into a top 5 program over a 20 year period.

Mentioning Ohio State really cracks me up. They made the final four in 07, and then had a two year dropoff. They proceeded to make two straight sweet 16s, followed by another final four and an elite 8. The head coach that put this run together let the program drop off in the 4 years following the second final four, and you know what Ohio State did? They fired him, brought someone new in, and are currently ranked in the top 5 two years after making that necessary change.

Not sure what on earth Syracuse is doing on this list. They were a premiere program for 30 years, including 5 final fours and an NCAA tournament win. 75 year old Jim Boeheim appears to be at the end of the line, but unlike Lon, has earned the right to stay at that program until he drops dead.

So, essentially every single one of these programs, minus South Carolina, had significantly more success in the aftermath of making the Final Four than what Lon has done.

Bringing up Kelvin is laughable. In his last three years we finished 7th in the Big XII, T-1st in the Big XII, and 3rd in the Big XII. Yeah, the NCAA results weren't there, but the program was in great shape. We had the best recruiting class in program history on its way when Kelvin bounced.


You mentioned "what coach would take the job if we pushed Lon out" above. In the last 3 years, we've finished in the bottom half of the conference all three years, have won zero conference tournament games, and won one NCAA tournament game. Barring a miraculous turnaround this year, you're going to have four straight finishes in the bottom half of the conference and two NCAA tourney appearances as low seeds in four seasons. No, we're not a blue blood, but it several levels below where this program is historically, and any coach who does that deserves to be shown the door.


None of your narratives are supported by the facts.

Oregon, like us, missed the tourney the year after their FF, and wouldn't have made it last year had they not won their conference tourney. I think that is what so many of you call sneaking into the tourney...at least, that's what you would call it if it happened to us. Florida made the FF in 2014...did that vault them up another step? They missed the dance the next two years. Wisconsin undeniably has moved backwards since their most recent FF appearance. Syracuse finds itself on the bubble almost every season. As for OSU, ask people closely associated with the program how they felt about the way Matta was treated. They have made it past the first weekend of the tourney once in seven years since the last FF appearance. And remember that Matta had health issues that, rightly or wrongly, factored into his departure.

It just illustrates that people can't objectively judge their own program. As you look at these other teams, you focus solely on the positives since their FF. With OU, so many on this board completely ignore any positives, such as NCAA berths, and instead complain because they don't like the process by which we made it. I guess people should actually not be unhappy at all yet this season, because we learned the past two years that noncon results mean nothing to so many of you. If that's the case when we win those games, at least stay consistent when we lose a couple in a row.

 

[sperry]

Oregon, like us, missed the tourney the year after their FF, and wouldn't have made it last year had they not won their conference tourney. I think that is what so many of you call sneaking into the tourney...at least, that's what you would call it if it happened to us. Florida made the FF in 2014...did that vault them up another step? They missed the dance the next two years. Wisconsin undeniably has moved backwards since their most recent FF appearance. Syracuse finds itself on the bubble almost every season. As for OSU, ask people closely associated with the program how they felt about the way Matta was treated. They have made it past the first weekend of the tourney once in seven years since the last FF appearance. And remember that Matta had health issues that, rightly or wrongly, factored into his departure.

It just illustrates that people can't objectively judge their own program. As you look at these other teams, you focus solely on the positives since their FF. With OU, so many on this board completely ignore any positives, such as NCAA berths, and instead complain because they don't like the process by which we made it. I guess people should actually not be unhappy at all yet this season, because we learned the past two years that noncon results mean nothing to so many of you. If that's the case when we win those games, at least stay consistent when we lose a couple in a row.

Lol. You are something. Just arguing to argue.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Lol. You are something. Just arguing to argue.

Whatever you say. Always your default when you can't successfully dispute the facts.

 

[hoopsaustin]

I love Kelvin. He was and is a great coach. I've never suggested otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that our program clearly didn't continue improving after the group that got us to the FF was gone, and that is the specific criticism of Lon that I was responding to.

He also was never this ****ty

 

[sperry]

Whatever you say. Always your default when you can't successfully dispute the facts.

I did present the facts. I refuted every single point you made with very clear evidence, and then you switched to some nonsense about Florida falling off after their fourth final four in 20 years and Thad Mattas bad back.

You are consistently dead wrong on EVERYTHING you argue on here, which makes me think you just argue to argue. This was a perfect example. What you said had no basis in fact, and when called out on it you switched goal posts to an equally weak argument.

 

[stormspencer]

Outside of JB's shooting woes, I thought he was decent today. He has a couple of assists, a steal, a block and four rebounds. Harmon had 5 points and 2 assists of the bench. Neither had a turnover.

Need both to find a way to create a few more turnovers and grab another rebound or two. Shooting % seems hopeless right now, but I'm hoping that there is no where to go but up.

 

[WichitaSooner]

I did present the facts. I refuted every single point you made with very clear evidence, and then you switched to some nonsense about Florida falling off after their fourth final four in 20 years and Thad Mattas bad back.

You are consistently dead wrong on EVERYTHING you argue on here, which makes me think you just argue to argue. This was a perfect example. What you said had no basis in fact, and when called out on it you switched goal posts to an equally weak argument.

Where exactly did I switch the goal posts? My point all along is that the teams I mentioned have not thrived since their most recent FF. In fact, most have fallen off, some dramatically. You in no way refuted that. You are so dead set on believing that every team in America is better off than we are that you can't handle it when shown otherwise.