This happened to OSU when they tried to land the huge names..

[thebigabd]

A few years back OSU made a similar attempt to stop recruiting just "good" players, jucos, etc and went after the huge names. They werent able to get the high character big guys (except Anderson), and ended up with their program spiraling out of control, coach getting fired, and rebuilding with Travis Ford who is now recruiting very well, but not landing any gigantic names.. He is recruiting like OSU recruited under Eddie for the most part.

Keith Brumbaugh, Gerald Green, Rod Flemmings, Torre Johnson, and Gary Flowers were all very good players but bringing them in cost OSU big time. Brumbaugh stole from Wal-Mart and never qualified, Green went to the NBA, Flemmings transferred to Hawaii, Torre got kicked off the team, and Flowers never made it either.

Eaton, Harris, and Boggan panned out from that class... but Eaton didnt really get his head on straight until his 3rd year in the program. Prior to that he was disliked by most of the fans. He was probably never fully appreciated.

Suck ensued and it cost Sean Sutton his job, on top of some substance abuse issues, but the losing is what got him fired.

OU might be in a similar situation with Willie Warren, Tiny Gallon, Fitz, Pledger, and TMG... Plus, OU has guys like Allen, Willis, and Hardrick that probably aren't good enough to play at this level.

Willie has been suspended, injured, and by all accounts just wants to get to the NBA.. Tiny Gallon has been suspended 2-3 times this year now and may not play anymore because of alleged contact with agents, Fitz and Pledger just got caught stealing from Dillards and were suspended (but seem like good kids otherwise), and TMG is the bright spot and the future of the program.

Things somehow went downhill for Sampson when he attempted to recruit a certain way... He got Damion James, Scottie Reynolds, but neither made it to campus after it was found out Sampson was caught breaking NCAA rules. Those were probably the biggest names Sampson ever got to Norman in 12 years, but it didnt work out.

Perhaps schools like OU and OSU have to take a hit on the types of people they recruit in order to land the huge names. Both have good basketball programs and a long history of having great players, but neither traditionally recruits the huge names very often.

 

[oSuJeff97]

Perhaps... but I do think a lot of this has to do with youth.

Of those guys from OSU who you pointed out... those who stuck around (Eaton and Harris) turned out to be really good players.

I have to think a lot of the problems with some of those players had to do with the Eddie/Sean transition and all of that mess.

 

[thebigabd]

Perhaps... but I do think a lot of this has to do with youth.

Every school in the country is recruiting kids... 18, 19, whatever. All teams have youth.

These are character issues, IMO.

 

[OKhoops]

I had this very conversation on the way to the game today with a buddy of mine. Its a really similar situation.

 

[htownSOONER]

I think this is very similar.

 

[38red]

Every school in the country is recruiting kids... 18, 19, whatever. All teams have youth.

These are character issues, IMO.

How many depend on them like we do? That's not UK?

See Texas!

 

[Sooner Quick]

Good observation big, I agree.

 

[Sawyer]

Problems arise when you set your sights high but have to make compromises to land the stars (either compromising your own values and ethics, leading to NCAA problems, or compromising your standards and ending up with talented headcases). Issues also pop up when you DON'T compromise, but miss out and aren't adequately prepared for it.

IMO it's better to accept where you are and go after guys who aren't "elite" talents until you've established yourself a bit. Steady growth is better than shooting for the stars, because it's incredibly rare that that works out at any school that isn't already among the elite. There will be times when elite talents still come your way (Griffin for OU, and I'm hoping Mitchell is that guy for Mizzou), but setting that as your standard is setting yourself up for failure for the vast majority of programs (ku and maybe Texas are the only Big 12 teams who can get away with that IMO).

 

[gracefor24]

I wonder how much of it also has to do with the fact that Capel has spent a lot of time recruiting guys that they didn't really have much chance with realistically (Barnes) and ends up behind the 8 ball with other guys. Does that make any sense?

In other words, if I'm Capel I recruit a few big names that I really feel I have a chance at (Warren, Clark, Gallon, TMG) and then spend my time trying really hard to get those second tier guys that are still Top 80-150 guys rather than trying to completely load up and end up having to fill out the class with a bunch of 3 star or JUCO guys who you haven't been able to evaluate well enough or haven't recruited long enough to get the really good ones. Just some thoughts.

 

[baeksu]

Blake Griffin was a big name. TMG was a big name. I'm glad we recruited them.

I've never really bought into the claim that programs, especially top-30 type BCS league programs, just don't need to go after the top high school talent whenever they can.

I know that's not exactly the way you were saying it, big, but if Capel goes out next year and signs 3 McDonald's All-Americans next year, then I'll still be ecstatic about it.

 

[OKhoops]

Blake Griffin was a big name. TMG was a big name. I'm glad we recruited them.

I've never really bought into the claim that programs, especially top-30 type BCS league programs, just don't need to go after the top high school talent whenever they can.

I know that's not exactly the way you were saying it, big, but if Capel goes out next year and signs 3 McDonald's All-Americans next year, then I'll still be ecstatic about it.

I agree with you...I tend to think that its just as much bad luck as it is anything. Keep landing highly rated kids and you'll be just fine.

 

[AdaSooner]

I wonder how much of it also has to do with the fact that Capel has spent a lot of time recruiting guys that they didn't really have much chance with realistically (Barnes) and ends up behind the 8 ball with other guys. Does that make any sense?

It makes so much sense to me, I have made similar observations both privately and on the board myself.

OU is not like Duke, UNC, KU and a handful of other schools who have the luxury of holding out for the top recruits on their lists. Those schools already have players on their roster or in their backup plan who can step in and fill a void, if they fail to sign their #1 recruits. Maybe we'll be there someday. But we're definitely not on that level now.

 

[gracefor24]

It makes so much sense to me, I have made similar observations both privately and on the board myself.

OU is not like Duke, UNC, KU and a handful of other schools who have the luxury of holding out for the top recruits on their lists. Those schools already have players on their roster or in their backup plan who can step in and fill a void, if they fail to sign their #1 recruits. Maybe we'll be there someday. But we're definitely not on that level now.

Right. And even KU has been EXTREMELY lucky to land Darrell Arthur late in the game and then the Morris Twins and Tyshawn Taylor after whiffing on other guys, and then Xavier Henry after whiffing on him the first time around.

 

[Seymore Cox]

To peg recruiting as the problem is a joke. If you look at OSU and the guys they brought in, all of them were good players. Every one. But this issue with their problem was probably revealed Friday with a guy addicted to pain pills. I think that Capel hasn't done a very good job of defining this team. They have no defensive identity and they shoot to many threes. That's not a recruiting issue, it's a coaching issue. You can plug alot of OU's current players on other rosters and their good players. You can plug Cade in with Kansas and he's every bit the player if not better than Reed and Morningstar. You can plug TMG on about 10 other big12 rosters and he's the starting pg(Roberson & Collins). Tony can be productive anywhere. WW is probably better with a different supporting cast. Gallon probably can develop with less pressure with better post players. Now I like Capel alot, but the blame falls on him. He should have first got guys that compliment and then developed their weakpoints and taught them to play together. If you do want to find a recruiting fault, you can look not at this class like you like to do abd, but prior classes. Early, Maze, Neismith, Cannon, Patillo, Allen, and though he was a good team guy, Leary were whiffs. Those guys should have been players who can bridge growing pains for freshman. They ended up being mistakes for different reasons. Also if you want to look at recruiting mistakes, look no further than John Roberson, Travis Leslie, and Mike Singletary. Capel could have got all those guys. But to say TMG, Fitz, Plegde, and Gallon are the reason is far off. They're freshman. They make 18yr old mistakes. They all will be good players. Hopefully for OU.

Also, the "Huge Name" argument is really overblown, because if you look at recruiting every year their are only about 10 "huge name" guys every year. The second ten have potential to be huge names and the 3rd 10 are sleeper guys that may develop into a huge name. from 40 past, it's alot of similar players who have to come in and work hard to be on the floor as a Freshman. Look at last year, you have Henry, Bradley, Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe, Favors, and Stephenson that were really elite and you had guys like TMG and Burk who were sleepers that came in and were productive. Next year will be the same. Barnes, Knight, Harris, and Jones as the real Huge nams.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

We should just focus on recruiting JUCO's or something; not that there isn't anything wrong with that.

Here is a thought...how about we let the guy that is getting paid a bunch of money to run the OU Basketball program recruit who he wants? After all, if he does a bad job, eventually he loses HIS job. Seems like the rational approach.

 

[Seymore Cox]

We should just focus on recruiting JUCO's or something; not that there isn't anything wrong with that.

Here is a thought...how about we let the guy that is getting paid a bunch of money to run the OU Basketball program recruit who he wants? After all, if he does a bad job, eventually he loses HIS job. Seems like the rational approach.

I agree with the point that you are making through sarcasm. Recruiting is just one equation of the problem. It's the only equation that message board posters like myself and others get a glympse at. We don't have access to see how a program is run or how student athletes get taught this game so we can't speculate on that. We can only speculate on recruiting. I think Capel has what it takes to put all phases together, from an observer from very far, I think he has to make some changes on his approach to all things.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

I agree with the point that you are making through sarcasm. Recruiting is just one equation of the problem. It's the only equation that message board posters like myself and others get a glympse at. We don't have access to see how a program is run or how student athletes get taught this game so we can't speculate on that. We can only speculate on recruiting. I think Capel has what it takes to put all phases together, from an observer from very far, I think he has to make some changes on his approach to all things.

To have a top flight program, you have to recruit the most talented players that you can. That is what Capel is doing and I appreciate his efforts...OU has a great JUCO heritage, but there are reasons most of those guys were in JUCO to begin with. I lose confidence in the posts of some on here is saying that we shouldn't be going after the most talented players we can...that is absurd. Where I completely agree with you is that there have been some lessons learned and I expect, some changes made...but going after second tier players isn't going to be one of them [I hope].

 

[Sid]

To peg recruiting as the problem is a joke. If you look at OSU and the guys they brought in, all of them were good players. Every one. But this issue with their problem was probably revealed Friday with a guy addicted to pain pills.

I think that Capel hasn't done a very good job of defining this team. They have no defensive identity and they shoot to many threes. That's not a recruiting issue, it's a coaching issue. You can plug alot of OU's current players on other rosters and their good players. You can plug Cade in with Kansas and he's every bit the player if not better than Reed and Morningstar. You can plug TMG on about 10 other big12 rosters and he's the starting pg(Roberson & Collins). Tony can be productive anywhere.

WW is probably better with a different supporting cast. Gallon probably can develop with less pressure with better post players. Now I like Capel alot, but the blame falls on him. He should have first got guys that compliment and then developed their weakpoints and taught them to play together.

If you do want to find a recruiting fault, you can look not at this class like you like to do abd, but prior classes. Early, Maze, Neismith, Cannon, Patillo, Allen, and though he was a good team guy, Leary were whiffs. Those guys should have been players who can bridge growing pains for freshman. They ended up being mistakes for different reasons.

Also if you want to look at recruiting mistakes, look no further than John Roberson, Travis Leslie, and Mike Singletary. Capel could have got all those guys. But to say TMG, Fitz, Plegde, and Gallon are the reason is far off. They're freshman. They make 18yr old mistakes. They all will be good players. Hopefully for OU.

Also, the "Huge Name" argument is really overblown, because if you look at recruiting every year their are only about 10 "huge name" guys every year. The second ten have potential to be huge names and the 3rd 10 are sleeper guys that may develop into a huge name. from 40 past, it's alot of similar players who have to come in and work hard to be on the floor as a Freshman. Look at last year, you have Henry, Bradley, Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe, Favors, and Stephenson that were really elite and you had guys like TMG and Burk who were sleepers that came in and were productive. Next year will be the same. Barnes, Knight, Harris, and Jones as the real Huge nams.

For a OF poster, that is an excellent analysis of the current situation. I enjoy reading everyone's take on the matter but you actually nailed it. Nice post.

 

[thebigabd]

If you look at OSU and the guys they brought in, all of them were good players. Every one. But this issue with their problem was probably revealed Friday with a guy addicted to pain pills.

Yea, I am sure those guys didnt qualify, didnt care about the team, jumped ship, stole, etc because Sean Sutton was overloading on pain killers.

I think that Capel hasn't done a very good job of defining this team.

Hard to do that when you have two guys (who are supposed to be your best players) who don't care about the team... Tiny Gallon had a facebook quote the other day about being torn about coming back next year... Willie has had "heart" issues all season sans a few games before his ankle injury where he appeared to care a little more.

WW and Gallon had character issues, we all knew it, Capel knew it, the media knew it, etc.. We are seeing that now, just like OSU did.

They have no defensive identity and they shoot to many threes.

The defensive identity is the coaches fault, but shooting too many 3's is a roster issue. Who you going to throw it into? Ryan Wright? Even when Tiny is in there he is softer than Charmin. Without Willie, OU has one guy who can take it to hole and thats Tony Crocker. TMG attacks the rim for mid-range jumpers, not to get to the rim.

Also, the "Huge Name" argument is really overblown, because if you look at recruiting every year their are only about 10 "huge name" guys every year.

I don't agree with that at all... At OU, a top 50 player is a big name.

If you do want to find a recruiting fault, you can look not at this class like you like to do abd, but prior classes. Early, Maze, Neismith, Cannon, Patillo, Allen, and though he was a good team guy, Leary were whiffs.

Yea, those guys were whiffs, but its not their fault... Leary and Maze were guys taken at the last second when he whiffed going after a bigger name. Maze is a good player and Leary contributed at least though.

Neysmith, Cannon, and Allen were just recruiting mistakes. They weren't good players, at all. I don't really know about Cannon, but the other 2 are UCO level players at best. Thats a recruiting bust, and its Capels fault.

Look DM, if you are going to be serious about recruiting good juco players than you need to do it early and not as a last resort. Thats my point, he whiffed on guys and got stuck with some last second options. You can find some really good contributors if you are going to go that route as a major program, but not if you wait until the last second and decide to call some guy for the first time.

 

[Seymore Cox]

Yea, I am sure those guys didnt qualify, didnt care about the team, jumped ship, stole, etc because Sean Sutton was overloading on pain killers.



Hard to do that when you have two guys (who are supposed to be your best players) who don't care about the team... Tiny Gallon had a facebook quote the other day about being torn about coming back next year... Willie has had "heart" issues all season sans a few games before his ankle injury where he appeared to care a little more.

WW and Gallon had character issues, we all knew it, Capel knew it, the media knew it, etc.. We are seeing that now, just like OSU did.



The defensive identity is the coaches fault, but shooting too many 3's is a roster issue. Who you going to throw it into? Ryan Wright? Even when Tiny is in there he is softer than Charmin. Without Willie, OU has one guy who can take it to hole and thats Tony Crocker. TMG attacks the rim for mid-range jumpers, not to get to the rim.



I don't agree with that at all... At OU, a top 50 player is a big name.



Yea, those guys were whiffs, but its not their fault... Leary and Maze were guys taken at the last second when he whiffed going after a bigger name. Maze is a good player and Leary contributed at least though.

Neysmith, Cannon, and Allen were just recruiting mistakes. They weren't good players, at all. I don't really know about Cannon, but the other 2 are UCO level players at best. Thats a recruiting bust, and its Capels fault.

Look DM, if you are going to be serious about recruiting good juco players than you need to do it early and not as a last resort. Thats my point, he whiffed on guys and got stuck with some last second options. You can find some really good contributors if you are going to go that route as a major program, but not if you wait until the last second and decide to call some guy for the first time.

What are you talking about? Willie Warren and Tiny Gallon have issues because they're top ten recruits? If that's the case, What about Wall and Cousin. Where are their problems at. Why is Xavier Henry not spiraling out of control. Why hasn't Avery Bradley got supended? Why did Blake Griffin do so well? Effort and work ethic is not a recruiting problem it's a personal problem. Gallon and Warren have that issues. TMG has that issues on the defensive end. They didn't go to the MCDAA game and aquire those issues. Also, go back and look at top10 recruits. Not so much as Rival's defines them but if you have any inkling of evaluation, look at overall talent. There are guys that are naturals like Barnes, Knight, Rose, Wall, Kevin Love, etc are naturals who will be in the NBA. Guys that work on their games and are gifted. After that first top ten wave of guys, you have alot of players who have talent, but need to develop it by work. Some guys work some guys dont. Gallon and WW fall under the don't category regardless if they were a "huge name" or not. Fact is the not so "huge" names have the same problem. Sometimes their problems are why they are no so "huge" names. Patillo had the same issues. Cannon had the same issues. Early had the same issues.

Again, Fitz is not a"huge" name. Pledger is not a huge name. TMG has been identified as a good player, but not a huge name. So to paint a brush by using Gallon and WW as your example of huge name=bust is not accurate and I hope you would realize that. Gallon and WW have been problems and I won'd defend that. However only a moron would believe their problem evolves around them being a big name recruit and not around their examples of lack of leadership, work ethic, and effort.