Tiny Gallon and the NCAA

[DenverSooner]

I am so sick of watching the NCAA treat kids poorly. I have no clue what Tiny Gallon did or did not do. It doesn't matter.

The NCAA does not provide the student athletes with any rights or due process. They make major decisions about their lives based on politics, bias and who knows what else.

Tiny is the third student athlete in the State of Oklahoma to be treated unfairly by the NCAA this year (and that is just the big name people I know of). Jeff Capel and OU can't comment so rumors just run wild (see the Tribune article that Bigabd cited). That is BS. We have free speech and open government in this country. It is way past time that the Congress declare the NCAA is a state actor and must give all student athletes basic rights like due process.

Mike B. (can't spell his name), Dez Bryant and now Tiny have all been treated worst than convicts. If I broke in your house and attacked your family the government would have to give me due process, they would have to charge me with a crime and address those charges in a timely manner. If I were poor, I would get representation. Not the NCAA. They do whatever they want and are accountable to no one.

The NCAA isn't even accountable to the member organizations any more because they are all afraid to stand against the NCAA for fear that their athletic department will break some silly rule and be found to lack institutional control. This is truly one the biggest injustices in our society and we all just sit back and let it continue.

I would love to see the internet fans pressure the politicians to mandate that the NCAA be treated as a state actor and required to make their records public, provide due process and give these student athletes a bill of rights. Millions are made off these children, they deserve to be treated fairly.

Dez Bryant was scared and unsure of the rules and the consequences of his actions so he denied having dinner with Deon Sanders. They took away his right to play football. For what? People can go on a soap box about lying but when humans are scared and don't know the consequences of their actions (particularly young humans) they often don't tell the truth or the whole truth.

 

[playmakr]

There are 2 organizations that need a complete audit, and they need it now. They are the IRS and the NCAA.

Good post, Denver, maybe the best since this board's inception.

As a person that was screwed by that corrupt and indecent organization, I doubly applaud your post.

 

[Tony]

It is a great post, Denver, I agree with playmakr (no comment on the IRS part though, heh). I am of course anything but an Oklahoma State fan, but one of my favorite moments last year was when Andy Oliver's lawyers took the NCAA to the cleaners in the courts. They are an absolutely absurd organization.

As an aside, I really like the way you make your arguments. Direct, concise, to the point, and persuasive. It makes me frustrated with my own writing.

 

[Edmond_Sooner]

Play, do u mind telling us what happened in ur situation?

 

[playmakr]

Play, do u mind telling us what happened in ur situation?

Long story fairly short, I couldn't play for a whole year because they said I "accepted" the pay of a traveling team whose roster had my name on it. It was one of those ex player teams that you sometimes see pop-up in exhibition games, they have sort of gone out the wayside. All I did was practice with them a few times because I knew a couple of the guys that were on the team. Somehow (I still don't know how) my name was on their roster while they played a few games. They make next to nothing to travel and play, but even despite that, and despite the fact I was in school when their games started (details aren't important here, of course) the NCAA called. Convienently, I missed a couple of practices due to personal matters, and they pinpointed those two days as when I played for a team featuring guys 6-10 years older than me, in freaking Kansas. (why the hell would I want to go to Kansas to play a game for 100 bucks) Despite witnesses that accounted my story, they sided with one clown with evidence, a clown who had a grudge. After a shoddy and one-sided "investigation" (hell I didn't even know they paid attention to the Horizon League) there wasn't much I could do, other than some fruitless appeal. It's not all that unlike Mike Balogun, aside from the fact that he did actually play for a semi-pro team at one time, and aside from the fact that Mike had NFL potential.

If you want more details I can PM you, but that's the gist of it.

 

[OUhoops11]

What has the NCAA done to Tiny?

 

[coolm]

What has the NCAA done to Tiny?

the whole reason tiny isn't playing is because of the ncaa process or lack thereof.

"ooooh...dont play because we might have something that we might investigate and if we decide against you then you will automatically lose any games he participated in..."

IMO one of these athletes needs to bring an injunction against the NCAA stopping them from continuing the current season until an answer is given due to the irreparable damage such a "stoppage" has on the kids' career.

Stick them in the bohunk like that just once and all this crap would stop.

 

[topcat]

I say get that lawyer who defended Andy Oliver on the case.

From what I read during the trial, he hated the NCAA.

This crap should've been cleared up during the non con season unless someone just turned Tiny in.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

You guys are going to look foolish if they find that Tiny was in the wrong.

I'm not NCAA apologist, but what do they get out of keeping some kid from playing? Nothing. This doesn't generate money for them. Probably costs them money to investigate. I'm not saying they are a well run orgainization, but for every case where they are the "bad guy", there are the cases where they are 100% right, and keeping kids that shouldn't be playing, from playing. There are rules. Everybody knows the rules. Just like the laws of the USA, you don't have to agree with them, but if you want to play their game, you damn sure better follow them.

Hopefully, if Tiny is innocent, he'll only miss the one game, or maybe two. Sucks that it comes down to that, but where there is smoke, there is usually fire. The NCAA isn't forcing Tiny not to play. OU basketball made that decision, based on the fact there might be some truth to it. Otherwise, you play the kid.

 

[Tony]

You guys are going to look foolish if they find that Tiny was in the wrong.

Just because the outcome might end up being correct, does not mean the process is proper. One needs to only look as far as the way the NCAA determines it's football champion to prove that point.

Just like the laws of the USA, you don't have to agree with them, but if you want to play their game, you damn sure better follow them.

And just like the laws of the USA, it is perfectly acceptable to voice complaints about them. I don't see anyone encouraging people to actively seek out ways to break the rules.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Just because the outcome might end up being correct, does not mean the process is proper. One needs to only look as far as the way the NCAA determines it's football champion to prove that point.



And just like the laws of the USA, it is perfectly acceptable to voice complaints about them. I don't see anyone encouraging people to actively seek out ways to break the rules.

Please tell me how the NCAA could investigate the Tiny issue better?

Again, they are NOT saying he can't play. But OU has to make that decision.....do we think Tiny might have committed a violation?!? Obviously somebody thinks so, or we'd keep playing, knowing he'd be cleared. I've seen that happen before. Not often, b/c like I said, usually if the NCAA is sniffing around, there is something going on. Sometimes they are wrong, but they don't know that until they investigate.

That is how investigations work. Sometimes you bark up the wrong tree. It happens.

 

[DenverSooner]

You guys are going to look foolish if they find that Tiny was in the wrong.

I'm not NCAA apologist, but what do they get out of keeping some kid from playing? Nothing. This doesn't generate money for them. Probably costs them money to investigate. I'm not saying they are a well run orgainization, but for every case where they are the "bad guy", there are the cases where they are 100% right, and keeping kids that shouldn't be playing, from playing. There are rules. Everybody knows the rules. Just like the laws of the USA, you don't have to agree with them, but if you want to play their game, you damn sure better follow them.

Hopefully, if Tiny is innocent, he'll only miss the one game, or maybe two. Sucks that it comes down to that, but where there is smoke, there is usually fire. The NCAA isn't forcing Tiny not to play. OU basketball made that decision, based on the fact there might be some truth to it. Otherwise, you play the kid.

I completely disagree. The NCAA needs to provide rights to student athletes, transparency to the public and due process. It is essentially a governmental agency but is not subject to any of the requirements that apply to government.

Whether or not Tiny violated a rule is irrelevant to whether or not Tiny deserves due process. Terrorists have rights (and I don't want to get into the scope of those rights or whether they should have them - I am simply making a point), shouldn't student athletes.

Finally the notion that OU is not letting Tiny play is BS. The NCAA is holding a gun to OU's head and threatening the University with the loss of substantial revenue if OU lets Tiny play and the NCAA is correct. That is not fair. The NCAA Should not be able to effectively prevent kids from playing sports prior to a determination. In fact, that is exactly what due process is all about - make sure people are treated fairly before being subjected to punishment.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

In fact, that is exactly what due process is all about - make sure people are treated fairly before being subjected to punishment.

If the CEO of a major corporation is under investigation, does he keep working? No.

If Joe Blow off the street is accused of murder, in most cases, does he get to keep living his life? No.

If a player in the NBA is suspected of bringing a gun to a game, does he get to keep playing until a conclusion is reached? No.

First of all, college basketball is a game. Not life. And certainly not a job. Due process is exactly what he is getting. The NCAA hasn't banned him from playing. They haven't found him guilty yet. They are investigating. And you can bet, the longer this goes on, the more likely they are to find him guilty of something, whether or not that is right or wrong. It isn't like they can do an investigation like this overnight.

And if they let Tiny play, and then find out that he is guilty, then what? I'd rather OU and any other team in this situation play it safe. Because the only fair thing to do if he plays, is to make us forfeit games. And that would suck worse then watching him not play.

 

[DenverSooner]

If the CEO of a major corporation is under investigation, does he keep working? No.

If Joe Blow off the street is accused of murder, in most cases, does he get to keep living his life? No.

If a player in the NBA is suspected of bringing a gun to a game, does he get to keep playing until a conclusion is reached? No.

First of all, college basketball is a game. Not life. And certainly not a job. Due process is exactly what he is getting. The NCAA hasn't banned him from playing. They haven't found him guilty yet. They are investigating. And you can bet, the longer this goes on, the more likely they are to find him guilty of something, whether or not that is right or wrong. It isn't like they can do an investigation like this overnight.

And if they let Tiny play, and then find out that he is guilty, then what? I'd rather OU and any other team in this situation play it safe. Because the only fair thing to do if he plays, is to make us forfeit games. And that would suck worse then watching him not play.

CEO's often keep working during investigation, all but dangerous criminals get bail and Sprewell attacked his coach and kept his job. So I guess I don't get your point.

If you honestly believe the NCAA gives people due process and treats athletes fairly, I think you are in a very small minority. But the good thing about the United States is everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

If you honestly believe the NCAA gives people due process and treats athletes fairly, I think you are in a very small minority. But the good thing about the United States is everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You have any suggestions of what "due process" should look like in Tiny's case?

 

[Sawyer]

I completely disagree. The NCAA needs to provide rights to student athletes, transparency to the public and due process. It is essentially a governmental agency but is not subject to any of the requirements that apply to government.

Whether or not Tiny violated a rule is irrelevant to whether or not Tiny deserves due process. Terrorists have rights (and I don't want to get into the scope of those rights or whether they should have them - I am simply making a point), shouldn't student athletes.

Finally the notion that OU is not letting Tiny play is BS. The NCAA is holding a gun to OU's head and threatening the University with the loss of substantial revenue if OU lets Tiny play and the NCAA is correct. That is not fair. The NCAA Should not be able to effectively prevent kids from playing sports prior to a determination. In fact, that is exactly what due process is all about - make sure people are treated fairly before being subjected to punishment.

Due process isn't about making sure people are treated "fairly." It's about making sure people are guaranteed their rights while under investigation. Playing college basketball is not a right.

Why shouldn't OU (or anyone else) be required to forfeit games in which an ineligible player participates?

 

[Cheno]

CEO's often keep working during investigation, all but dangerous criminals get bail and Sprewell attacked his coach and kept his job. So I guess I don't get your point.

But they all miss some time while the process plays out. Sprewell didn't attack his coach and then play the next game. If memory serves me right he missed the entire year. If Tiny did nothing wrong the NCAA probably wouldn't be investigating right now and OU probably would be playing him. Like someone said typically where there is smoke there is fire.

 

[DenverSooner]

Due process isn't about making sure people are treated "fairly." It's about making sure people are guaranteed their rights while under investigation. Playing college basketball is not a right.

Why shouldn't OU (or anyone else) be required to forfeit games in which an ineligible player participates?

Well thank you Sawyer. Your analysis between treating people "fairly" and "guaranteed their rights" is duly noted. In my opinion, most learned individuals believe that a fundamental principal of fairness is due process of the law. In fact, I would be so bold to suggest that denying someone their rights is unfair.

 

[campbest]

With our athletic department's prior transgressions, I would rather have Capel, Castiglione, etc. play it safe. Do I like the NCAA? Not that much, would love for someone to step up and challenge them. I'm sure someone on here has a law degree, get on it.

While I do think it is a bit unfair that OU is backed into a corner forcing Tiny to sit, however, knowing how looking from the outside-in can be tough, there has to be some info that our people (Capel, Joe C) know that we don't. You just don't hear the NCAA is investigating you and make a split second decision to bench someone...there is an internal process for the atheltic department.

Also, as a STUDENT-athlete, Tiny's first responsibility is class. If the NCAA took away his finances for the time being during an investigation, I would be more upset. However, Tiny is still allowed to work toward the underlying principle why you go to college...to graduate. How realistic that principle actually is, start another thread for that.

 

[Sooner Quick]

It's kinda like he's guilty before proven innocent. Which he may end up being but last I checked you are innocent until proven guilty. That said OU is in a hard spot and they almost have to do what they did. Tiny says he didn't so I will give the kid the benefit of the doubt for now.