Tramel blog on Bedlam: someone from here send this info?

NMSooner'80

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Bedlam basketball debate
Posted by berrytramel on June 27, 2009 at 10:29 am

I got an interesting email this week from OU fan named Geoff. I thought it was very interesting, so I’m posting it separate from my usual email bag, which will come later.

“I am going to submit to you what I think is one of the biggest misconceptions in the Oklahoma sports world. It is the fact that many media members and fans of both schools feel as though OSU has a better basketball program and a better history than OU basketball. Keep in mind that I do believe that OSU has a really quality program and a lot of great tradition (Iba was an amazing coach and won them two championships), but please take a moment and read these stats, and tell me what you think. I think some of them may surprise you.

The Big Eight, as we knew it, came into being for the 1958-59 season. From the 1958-59 season to 2008-09:

OSU

Total win/loss record: 802-640, .554

NCAA tournament appearances: 16

Final 4 appearances: 2

Title game appearances: 0

NIT appearances: 5

Conference titles: 2 Big 8 (1 shared), 1 Big 12

Conference tournament titles: 2 Big 8, 2 Big 12

OU

Total win/loss record: 933-543, .630

NCAA tournament appearances: 24

Final 4 appearances: 2

Title game appearances: 1

NIT appearances: 7

Conference titles: 5 Big 8, 1 Big 12 (shared)

Conference tournament titles: 4 Big 8, 3 Big 12

Overall head to head since 58-59: OU 66, OSU 47

“In the 51 seasons since OSU joined the Big Eight, OU has a better conference record 36 times, OSU 11.

Since the inception of the Big 12 conference, OSU has only finished ahead of OU in the conferences standings one time.

So, you want to go back all-time?

Overall record: OU 1,468-936 (.611) OSU 1452-1018 (.588).

Bedlam Wins: OU 126, OSU 89

Winning coaches: OU 10, OSU 6

All-Americans: OU 22, OSU 17

Conference titles: OU 22, OSU 17

1,000-point scorers: OU 35, OSU 30

Draft selections: OU 42, OSU 32

NCAA appearances: OU 26, OSU 23

Home-court win streak: OU 51, OSU 46

“OU has spent more weeks in the AP poll than OSU. OU has had more winning seasons than OSU. OU has a better all time home winning percentage than OSU. OU has made it to 4 Final Fours (two championship games).

OSU has won two national championships (’45 and ‘46) in basketball. This is a stat that simply cannot be ignored, and really the main reason why the Cowboys are even in the ballpark with Oklahoma in terms of basketball program comparisons. I will not take anything away from their accomplishments but consider this:

1. These championships happened 62 and 63 years ago. Most of us on this board were not even born when the Cowboys won the championship. Before you bombard me with the 50’s football championships, at least we have won one in the new millennium (2000), and, this is about basketball, not football.

2. The road to winning the championship was a lot less meddlesome back in the old A&M days. The Aggies only had to win three (3) games to be crowned the champion unlike the grueling six games of the modern era. That is certainly not the Cowboy’s fault, but should at least be mentioned. Four of OSU’s six Final Fours were obtained via this three-game system. Two of Oklahoma’s 4 were also obtained this way. Eight of Oklahoma State’s 11 Elite 8 appearances were accomplished by only having to win two games in the tournament. Three of OU’s eight Elite 8 appearances were won in this fashion.

3. The good old NIT was still a major player during this time. It was an era in which the NCAA was battling for dominance. While it is debatable which tournament ran supreme during these championships, one thing is for sure, not all the good teams were playing in the NCAA tournament. Could that of impacted OSU’s two victories? Who knows? But again, worth mentioning.

4. All-American Bob Kurland was a game-changing center for the Pokes. There was no goal tending back then, so the big 7-footer could just sit back and guard the goal until the cows came home. It was certainly within the rules of the day, but it obviously gave the Cowboys a big advantage that they wouldn’t have had a few years later (because of Kurland).

If OSU fans really want to use all of that success from the Iba days as the main basis of claiming superiority over Oklahoma (despite all the facts that I have presented in this comparison), then I think they might be living in the past just a tad!”


Well, Geoff, I certainly thank you. That’s a lot of research, and while much of it has been done before, it remains very interesting.

The Bedlam basketball debate is long-standing and quite fascinating.

First off, I would disagree with the whole premise, that the Oklahoma media gives OSU basketball the edge. I think this whole argument stems from the Eddie Sutton era, in which fan support at OSU superseded fan support at OU.

Most people who give OSU an edge do so because of Gallagher-Iba Arena. Its attendance and its atmosphere. In the post-Eddie era, when the fan support withered, no one really argues that OSU has the better program.

As for which program is most successful, it’s entirely how you want to define success.

Head-to-head? OU, but if you count this, you have to swallow the OU-Texas head-to-head football rivalry, in which the Longhorns have had a 20-game lead over the Sooners for most of the last 70 years.

Conference supremacy? OU

NCAA championships? OSU, and any talk of how OSU’s 1945 and 1946 titles were won in inferior eras has to take us to OU football’s three national titles in the 1950s, which were won before any black player was on a roster south of the Mason-Dixon Line, including OU. To question Iba’s national titles because of the goal-tending rule is like saying Bud Wilkinson’s early great teams were a product of World War II veterans. It’s clear to me that OSU basketball with a goal-tending rule would have been much closer to its eventual success than OU football without all those 22-year-old veterans who showed up in 1946.

And since we’re talking history, I never pass up the chance to remind people of 1945. After OSU’s NCAA title, the Cowboys played a Red Cross benefit game against NIT champ DePaul, beating the Blue Demons at Madison Square Garden in what was one of the biggest games in college basketball history. A game that ranks with OU-Notre Dame 1957 football in terms of national impact.

Anyway, for me, college basketball is the easiest sport in which to debate programs, because of the NCAA Tournament. Just add up the wins. And in that regard, OSU is head of OU. The Cowboys are 38-22 in the NCAAs; OU is 35-26. That’s very close, by the way. OSU is 18th nationally, I think, while OU is 21st.

Geoff is right. More of those OSU victories came in a previous era, which adds weight to OU, in the same way football wins 50-60 years ago don’t count the same way as football wins in the last 20 years, else we’ll be forced to say Army and Navy still have great football programs.

A few years ago, I ranked the college basketball programs. I had OSU No. 19 and OU No. 20. I did it again several months ago and had OU slightly ahead of OSU.

I think they’re very close. In head-to-head matchups of all kinds of comparisons, yes, OU is ahead. In the categories that matter most, NCAA titles and NCAA victories, OSU is ahead.
 
Please, somebody post this on Orangepower.
 
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Kudos to whomever send that thread to Berry. That was the work of several Sooners on the OUinsider board (skyvue, Soonersenior, and myself for sure). It will be interesting to see how OSU fans pick at it. It really, really suprised me when I first saw the numbers....

The main thing that OSU has going for them is the fact that they have the national titles. One other thing that wasn't mentioned in the post (but probably should have been for fairness sake) is that OSU has an all time higher tournament winning %. This is because of: 1. Like the natty titles, they also had some elite 8s over 60 years ago. 2. Kelvin Sampson's notorious 1 and done streak. I hope we can swing that % back in our favor under Capel (a few more deep runs in the tournament should do the trick).

Anyway, cool post by Berry. It is good to see some truth getting out there in the media....
 
One thing that I wish he would have included in the blog that is in the thread is the Big 12 conference finishes in which OSU has only finished with a better conference record than OU once since the inception of the Big 12 conference (that was the year that the Cowboys went to the final four)....

Edit: Another stat that he left out that I wish was in there is the two teams' records against the rest of the Big 12. OU has a winning all-time record against every Big 12 team not named Kansas. OSU only has winning records against 5 of the 11 teams in the conference. I think that is an impressive stat if you are a Sooner fan.
 
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The difference between OU's football titles of the 1950s and oswho's basketball titles of the '40s is that OU has won four other national titles in football, one or more in each of three of the five decades since, so we don't rely strictly -- or even primarily -- on those titles for our football legitimacy.

Take away those 1950's titles, and OU is undeniably one of the greatest football programs in the country.

oswho has won zero hoops titles in the six decades since they won theirs, and they depend almost entirely upon those titles for their claims of basketball supremacy.

Take away their 1940s titles and NCAA appeareances, and they're not remotely in OU's league in basketball.

OU's had three great coaches, with Capel well on the way to being the fourth. oswho's had two, with their current coach a lot further away from laying a claim to greatness.

Then there's the fact that OU is this good in both of the two major collegiate sports, while oswho was really good in one of them, and that was sixty years ago, with just one blip of national success since.

As for the head-to-head comparisons being like the OU-texas ones in football, texas' lead in the series was built entirely before World War II -- the series is virtually even since then.

OU's lead over oswho was built both before World War II and since 1970.
 
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The Pokes are taking this rather well.
But of course we have this gem, hey at least he is acknowledging that Blake is good.
the reason people don't know all this info is because until God (Blake Griffin) went to goonerville the UO fans always said basketball wasn't a real sport but as knowledgeable as goons are I'm surprised they didn't know this already too
 
This is freaking awesome. It's taken several years, but the truth is finally starting to see the light of day.
 
"In the post-Eddie era, when the fan support withered, no one really argues that OSU has the better program."

Unfortunately, I can give you LOADS of OSU fans that will go to their grave claiming that OSU is a BASKETBALL school the likes of Duke, UCLA, UNC. No joke. They'll also argue that OU is a one program school, and that they still have better basketball. The facts don't lie. The truth shall set you free.
 
"In the post-Eddie era, when the fan support withered, no one really argues that OSU has the better program."

Unfortunately, I can give you LOADS of OSU fans that will go to their grave claiming that OSU is a BASKETBALL school the likes of Duke, UCLA, UNC. No joke. They'll also argue that OU is a one program school, and that they still have better basketball. The facts don't lie. The truth shall set you free.

Ask them about their fan support during the 30 year span between Iba and Sutton. OU had better numbers then (not that ours were great).

Senior,

I can't tell you how pleased I was to see him post that.
 
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No kidding man. It is greatness. Props to all who contributed, including yourself of course
 
I think I'll print these out and distribute in Stillwater...or maybe just post on random street corners there.
 
The difference between OU's football titles of the 1950s and oswho's basketball titles of the '40s is that OU has won four other national titles in football, one or more in each of three of the five decades since, so we don't rely strictly -- or even primarily -- on those titles for our football legitimacy.

Take away those 1950's titles, and OU is undeniably one of the greatest football programs in the country.

oswho has won zero hoops titles in the six decades since they won theirs, and they depend almost entirely upon those titles for their claims of basketball supremacy.

Take away their 1940s titles and NCAA appeareances, and they're not remotely in OU's league in basketball.

OU's had three great coaches, with Capel well on the way to being the fourth. oswho's had two, with their current coach a lot further away from laying a claim to greatness.

Then there's the fact that OU is this good in both of the two major collegiate sports, while oswho was really good in one of them, and that was sixty years ago, with just one blip of national success since.

As for the head-to-head comparisons being like the OU-texas ones in football, texas' lead in the series was built entirely before World War II -- the series is virtually even since then.

OU's lead over oswho was built both before World War II and since 1970.

You hit it right on here. I have argued with Berry in the past when he has talked about GIA being the "toughest" place to play. To me, that means hardest place to win. OU has won many more times in GIA than OSU has won in Norman. If you want to say it has the best atmosphere, etc., fine....but don't claim it is the toughest place to play.
 
I'm pretty sure I know who Geoff is, and I'm pretty sure he's a poster on this board.
 
I'm pretty sure I know who Geoff is, and I'm pretty sure he's a poster on this board.


Kudos to him! I'm sure Berry hated having to read all of that, especially since it refuted his "OSU is better" stance.
 
You hit it right on here. I have argued with Berry in the past when he has talked about GIA being the "toughest" place to play. To me, that means hardest place to win. OU has won many more times in GIA than OSU has won in Norman. If you want to say it has the best atmosphere, etc., fine....but don't claim it is the toughest place to play.

Nice post. I agree. I have no problem calling it a great atmosphere (it really hasn't even been that for the past three years), but if you look at the winning %s they have no business calling it the toughest place to play or win.
 
I know SeniorSooner and TopDaug have been preaching this message to anyone who will listen for years. I've seen it in many locales and watering holes. Most aggies response is NUU-UHH. To which we now reply(thanks to Coach Calhoun) "You're not that stupid are you? GET SOME FACTS AND COME BACK AND SEE ME."
 
It's great to see the stats outlined like this. No dOUbt that OU has led the pack. Proud to be a Sooner.
 
You want some advice? Shutup.

That's really polite.

No it's not polite, I want you to shutup.
 
One thing that also galls me about the "OSU is better at basketball" myth is that at least some OU fans believe it. Present company is excluded, of course, but I've heard it said that "so what if the Aggies are better in basketball" when OU still had the series lead up to about 34 games.
 
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