ViVi vs Kaylon

[SoonerNorm]

Some are down on Kaylon and very high on ViVi. I have to disagree on both. Kaylon commits waaaay too many fouls, we all know that. But, she is by far the better player. I don't see ViVi as ever being a starter. Kaylon will start next year (unless the freshman is amazing) and Nancy the following year.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Some are down on Kaylon and very high on ViVi. I have to disagree on both. Kaylon commits waaaay too many fouls, we all know that. But, she is by far the better player. I don't see ViVi as ever being a starter. Kaylon will start next year (unless the freshman is amazing) and Nancy the following year.

You are absolutely right Norm. Here are the stats for the three bigs tonight. Those who even remotely thought KK was outplayed by the other two bigs need to look very carefully at these numbers. What could possibly make you think that way? I believe those kinds of built in biases are exactly why some officials see some of her fouls. Bias makes it very hard to be accurate. And just as you thought she was outplayed tonight they think her touch fouls or lite contact is worth calling when they do not normally call such things. Bias is a huge problem for all of us. Some officials are deeply in need of external pressure to do a better job.

............................................... 3 point
## Player............. FG FGA FG FGA FT FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42 Williams, Kaylon.... 9 16 - 0 0 .. 4 8 .. 7 3 . 10. 4 22 1 .1. 0. 1 .24
00 Pierre-Louis,Vionise 0 1 -- 0 0 .. 0 0 .. 0 2 .. 2. 4. 0 0 .2. 0. 0 ..8
30 Treece, McKenna..... 0 1 -- 0 0 .. 2 2 .. 1 0 .. 1. 0. 2 0 .0 .0. 0 ..7

 

[sybarite]

Sweetest, easy.

There are two points here.
1. At the half, Kay Kay's stat line was about like what you are showing for Vivi and McKenna. When the game was on the line, Kay Kay was missing layups, not scoring. Her points were at trash time as they let us score rather than foul us.

2. I don't know that anyone is saying that Vivi or McKenna is better than Kay Kay right now. I am saying that I think Kay Kay has often limited her usefulness by being emotional. She does reach over the back after someone has already gathered a rebound. She does miss layups badly when she gets excited.

Vivi? In the long run, I think Vivi will become a more useful player than Kay Kay. Kay Kay has had the talent, but she is self-limiting. She may break out next year into a supertstar. Sherri has always believed that she would. I simply keep seeing the same old song, "you knew I was a snake when you picked me up.' I see Vivi as someone who has learned rapidly. She wasn't a well-trained highschool kid and is still learning the basics. But, the fact that she has picked up on free throw shooting, rebounding, and shot-blocking is encouraging. I don't want the scoring as much as I want domination of the interior.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Syb,

I honestly don't know how you look at those lines and get any sense that Vivi even might have led us to victory if she had played say 40 minutes. For one thing she would have gotten 20 fouls - which just might have limited her time. I mean she got 4 fouls in just 8 minutes. And they were really dumb fouls - even the announcers were shocked about her carelessness.

Vivi fouls as much as KK even though not as much is asked of her. I am not trying to belittle Vivi. But she is simply not as good as KK at this point. Could she be in the future? of course. Could she stay just like she is now? Of course.

I just don't like all the fantasy about what someone "is going to do" next year.

They may have been "letting" us score at the end, but it is interesting that no one else on the team noticed that or took advantage of it. KK is committed to doing her best. Unfortunately sometimes she misses a shot, although she IS leading the Big-12 in shooting percentage. So if she is a lousy shooter what does that say about everyone else in the league?

We did not lose tonight because of KK. We lost because our 3 point shooters took the night off. You cannot win if your 3 point shooters hit 26% of their shots. That is the problem with building a team around that. Stanford got lucky in the sense that they shot 10% better than average on the 3 (50% to 40% average). We lost because we missed too many 3's.

 

[Oliver Hardy]

Our shooting percentage has been crap for 50 percent of the last 10 games of the season, as I pointed out 10 days ago. These last 2 games are a continuation of that.

I think ViVi has a chance to be very productive next season. I like her play. I don't know that she can beat Kaylon out.

But if Williams keeps fouling stupidly, Vivi won't have to. She'll get more time on the court than Kay-Kay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[garyeb2]

Sweetest, easy.

There are two points here.
1. At the half, Kay Kay's stat line was about like what you are showing for Vivi and McKenna. When the game was on the line, Kay Kay was missing layups, not scoring. Her points were at trash time as they let us score rather than foul us.

2. I don't know that anyone is saying that Vivi or McKenna is better than Kay Kay right now. I am saying that I think Kay Kay has often limited her usefulness by being emotional. She does reach over the back after someone has already gathered a rebound. She does miss layups badly when she gets excited.

Vivi? In the long run, I think Vivi will become a more useful player than Kay Kay. Kay Kay has had the talent, but she is self-limiting. She may break out next year into a supertstar. Sherri has always believed that she would. I simply keep seeing the same old song, "you knew I was a snake when you picked me up.' I see Vivi as someone who has learned rapidly. She wasn't a well-trained highschool kid and is still learning the basics. But, the fact that she has picked up on free throw shooting, rebounding, and shot-blocking is encouraging. I don't want the scoring as much as I want domination of the interior.

You got high on Gibbs too.

 

[MsProudSooner]

Which player would our opponents rather face?

 

[YCN]

I thought it might be interesting to calculate the team Hoopla! scores for the last two games.

Team Hoopla Scores
Quinnipiac 48, Oklahoma 112 (+64)
Oklahoma 42, Stanford 75 (-33)

What I expect from this team as it matures is a greater consistency from game to game. Young teams tend to be much more unpredictable.

Btw, KK had 6 Hoopla! points against Quinnipiac, and 18 against Stanford.

 

[womenssports]

We do not know how much Vivi will improve by next year's play. She came in coming off an acl tear. She is a freshman. She could not have been in as good of shape as she could have been without the injury. We can speculate all we want but we just do not know. I don't care about the numbers last night, Kay-Kay had a bad night. I have always thought she had the potential to be great. She still is not playing smart. I hope for her sake she makes major improvements over the summer and they stay with her next season. She has what it takes to play in the WNBA if she plays to her potential.

I don't see Vivi starting over Kay-Kay but I see her getting a lot of minutes. She is smart, learns quickly, should be healthier and in better shape and she has fun with the team.

Vivi should end up being a huge asset to this team. Actually, as a freshman she already has been.

I wish Sherri developed her players. It seems the only ones who have developed have been D-Rob and so far I would say maybe Gabbi. I know she spends time with Gabbi with tape, did she do that with D-Rob or did D-Rob do it all on her own? I also wish she would concentrate on the fundamentals.
There are some thing which should come naturally and they never do to our teams. Not to beat something to death, BUT Sherri needs to hire a coach who complements her abilities. Otherwise we will never win a national championship. And maybe that is okay, but the same mistakes year after year are not okay.

I also do not know why at a state university that all kids do not get a chance not just the ones who aren't edgy.

 

[womenssports]

You got high on Gibbs too.

I am not sure that Syb was not correct in getting high on Gibbs, but
she needed some coaching. Also, not sure how she fit in nor how her grades her..........and both of those things may not have been an issue. Just trying to
think of things that may have made a difference. I have no reason to believe
that she did not make great grades and that she did not fit in.

Part of making it with a team is luck. Getting the right motivation and coaching. So many intangibles of which we have no clue are involved

 

[garyeb2]

I am not sure that Syb was not correct in getting high on Gibbs, but
she needed some coaching. Also, not sure how she fit in nor how her grades her..........and both of those things may not have been an issue. Just trying to
think of things that may have made a difference. I have no reason to believe
that she did not make great grades and that she did not fit in.

Part of making it with a team is luck. Getting the right motivation and coaching. So many intangibles of which we have no clue are involved

I'm sure. She was a raw project. Sherri brought her in, took a look, and shipped her out. That is fine. The two freshmen are probably better prospects.

 

[BlackwellSooner]

I am trying to remember the short-timer (?) named Gibbs. Someone help me out, here...

 

[womenssports]

Felisha Gibbs from Arkansas was a freshman last year but not on team this year. She was brought in late and I do not remember if she had a scholarship or not. Did not see much action. (or was it year before last) A big.

 

[SoonerShamrock]

She transferred to Washburn University, where she played an average of 12 minutes per game this past season. http://wusports.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=3436&path=wbball

 

[AustinTXSooner]

I think this boils down to two facts:

1) Kaylon is a much better scorer than ViVi
2) ViVi is a much better defender than Kaylon

 

[Oliver Hardy]

Have I ever come to Syb's defense? I must be going through the male version of the change of life. Anyway, here it goes.

I think Syb is talking strictly about potential; that Vivi has a greater upside at this point than Williams does.

Williams has turned into a solid scorer. That wasn't always the case and in games like last night, she reverts to her stupid self, as I call it.

Vivi is already nearly as good, if not as good a post defender. She's stronger and tougher in the block than Kay-Kay. She can block shots. I only see that getting better.

I think she needs to develop a better more diverse offensive game. I think she will.

I doubt she ever starts over Kay-Kay, but anything is possible. As I pointed out last night in another thread, until Mulkey get's here, I think Vivi is going to get plenty of playing time, because I really don't see Kay-Kay solving her three-year fouling problem.

Sherri has depth and she has shown this year that she doesn't mind putting people on the bench (ala Kay-Kay, Carter and Maddie). I think that will only increase next year if you aren't stepping up. I suspect Williams, like Maddie and Carter, might find herself on the bench some more next season, if she doesn't start getting it, as coach likes to say.

 

[tycat947]

I think this boils down to two facts:

1) Kaylon is a much better scorer than ViVi
2) ViVi is a much better defender than Kaylon

Agree but don't forget rebounding. I think Vivi will end up being a better rebounder as well.

KayKay made good strides this year:

Last year averaged 7.0 ppg and 4.2 rpg and 1 foul per 5 minutes.

This year averaged 12.2 ppg and 6.6 rpg and .75 foul per 5 minutes. Obviously, fouling is KayKay's biggest issue. She improved a little from the previous year and had some games that she didn't foul much. Will she improve significantly next year with regards to fouling? Who knows? But we've seen seniors in the past really have outstanding seasons with marked improvement. I wouldn't count her out.

I don't know Vivi will ever ave over 12 ppg but I can see her ave 8-10 rebounds per game. She was released to play basketball right before practices began so she really had no conditioning during the summer up to when they began practicing. I'll be surprised if she doesn't show great improvement next year. During the season, she missed most of her free throws and the last few weeks she's been almost automatic. I think she's got a great upside with all parts of her game except I don't anticipate her to be a prolific scorer, but she may prove me wrong on that too.

I think KayKay, Vivi and McKenna all offer a different skill set to the post position and anticipate great strides by Vivi and McKenna and hope KayKay improves on not fouling. We will be fine.

 

[Sweetest OU Girl]

Too many of you are making excuses instead of evaluating what happened last night.

You keep whining and disparaging KK for her fouls. Now, even though 1 poster said something like "I don't pay any attention to the numbers, I just decide who played the best", the numbers generally tell the unbiased story.

Did KK get 4 fouls? Yes.

But Gioya got 5. Sharane got 5. Vivi got 4 IN 8 MINUTES of play.

We did not lose because of KK. Not because of her fouls and not because of her missed shots. For heavens sake she shot 56%, and got 10 rebounds. No one else on the team even remotely approached that number.

Peyton? 12.5%, 3 rebounds.

Sharane? 30%, 8 rebounds.

Gioya? 44%, 1 little lonely rebound. And only 4 little points after halftime. She got 12 of her 20 points in the first 6 minutes, then was defended better and only got 8 in the final 28 minutes.

Vivi? 0% 2 rebounds.

We are lucky KK is on our team. Let's stop all the hateful, negative comments about her. When someone can make a mistake, then get it corrected and play good enough for us to win, let's thanks her. if you want to complain, at least complain about someone who had a bad game.

Here is the truth. A guard oriented offense cannot win against good competition when your guards have lousy games. That is what happened.

And we left a 40% 3 point shooter wide open (no one within 10 feet of her) in the corner 7 times. We paid a steep price for that defensive strategy.

 

[sybarite]

Have I ever come to Syb's defense? I must be going through the male version of the change of life. Anyway, here it goes.

I think Syb is talking strictly about potential; that Vivi has a greater upside at this point than Williams does.

Williams has turned into a solid scorer. That wasn't always the case and in games like last night, she reverts to her stupid self, as I call it.

Vivi is already nearly as good, if not as good a post defender. She's stronger and tougher in the block than Kay-Kay. She can block shots. I only see that getting better.

I think she needs to develop a better more diverse offensive game. I think she will.

I doubt she ever starts over Kay-Kay, but anything is possible. As I pointed out last night in another thread, until Mulkey get's here, I think Vivi is going to get plenty of playing time, because I really don't see Kay-Kay solving her three-year fouling problem.

Sherri has depth and she has shown this year that she doesn't mind putting people on the bench (ala Kay-Kay, Carter and Maddie). I think that will only increase next year if you aren't stepping up. I suspect Williams, like Maddie and Carter, might find herself on the bench some more next season, if she doesn't start getting it, as coach likes to say.

Yep.

 

[sybarite]

Agree but don't forget rebounding. I think Vivi will end up being a better rebounder as well.

KayKay made good strides this year:

Last year averaged 7.0 ppg and 4.2 rpg and 1 foul per 5 minutes.

This year averaged 12.2 ppg and 6.6 rpg and .75 foul per 5 minutes. Obviously, fouling is KayKay's biggest issue. She improved a little from the previous year and had some games that she didn't foul much. Will she improve significantly next year with regards to fouling? Who knows? But we've seen seniors in the past really have outstanding seasons with marked improvement. I wouldn't count her out.

I don't know Vivi will ever ave over 12 ppg but I can see her ave 8-10 rebounds per game. She was released to play basketball right before practices began so she really had no conditioning during the summer up to when they began practicing. I'll be surprised if she doesn't show great improvement next year. During the season, she missed most of her free throws and the last few weeks she's been almost automatic. I think she's got a great upside with all parts of her game except I don't anticipate her to be a prolific scorer, but she may prove me wrong on that too.

I think KayKay, Vivi and McKenna all offer a different skill set to the post position and anticipate great strides by Vivi and McKenna and hope KayKay improves on not fouling. We will be fine.

Yep.