Attendance today - factor?

[SoonerSpock]

They should remodel LNC to about 7,000 seats and make box seats/suites up at the top

What a horrible atmosphere

You are working with bad numbers. In may many years as a season ticketholder I have several times seen us average in excess of 8,000 butts in the seats. For the last 10 games this year with our terrible losing streak the Sooners have still averaged 8,896 tickets sold and 6,577 tickets scanned (butts in the seats). We had two games we sold in excess of 10,000 tickets with a high of 10,906 sold and 9,686 scanned.

There is nothing wrong with the size of the LNC. Have a team that is a serious contender for the conference championship and we would easily average 8,000-8,800 butts in the seats. For example the conference home games of the 2016 season we averaged selling 11,029 tickets and had an average of 9,415 butts in the seats. With a high attendance of 11,707 on 12,247 tickets sold.

 

[sheepdogs1]

You are working with bad numbers. In may many years as a season ticketholder I have several times seen us average in excess of 8,000 butts in the seats. For the last 10 games this year with our terrible losing streak the Sooners have still averaged 8,896 tickets sold and 6,577 tickets scanned (butts in the seats). We had two games we sold in excess of 10,000 tickets with a high of 10,906 sold and 9,686 scanned.

There is nothing wrong with the size of the LNC. Have a team that is a serious contender for the conference championship and we would easily average 8,000-8,800 butts in the seats. For example the conference home games of the 2016 season we averaged selling 11,029 tickets and had an average of 9,415 butts in the seats. With a high attendance of 11,707 on 12,247 tickets sold.

And in the process they would preclude the women's gymnastics team from drawing large crowds so as to placate the crowd which wants a smaller basketball venue.

 

[thebigabd]

This has been a debate forever.... The "environment"... It's valid.

I've been to LNC, Gallagher Iba, The Reynolds Center, and the Pepsi Center during sold out high profile games. I kid you not, LNC has less atmosphere than even TU.

When TU was having their run back in the day, that place would get so loud you couldn't even think... Because like Gallagher Iba, it's built specific for basketball.

Gallagher Iba has an amazing atmosphere, but I kid you not the upper decks are challenging for older people. It is straight up and down. But again, built for basketball.

 

[NMSooner'80]

I have been back in Oklahoma for 4 1/2 years. I've never been to a Thunder game. Of course, I'm well aware that it's a higher level of basketball. But they've done absolutely nothing in my lifetime to warrant my loyalty, beyond being located in our capital city.

And, after reading all sort of caterwauling about OU teams not recruiting enough in-state kids, it reminds me that the Thunder has never had an OU player.

I would like for the Thunder to do well, but I'd never pick them over OU if I had to choose between which team I'd rather see play in person, if they were both playing the same day.

 

[mict085]

As I said earlier, that problem isn't unique to OU. You're fighting real data with unsubstantiated opinions. If you have any data supporting your claims, I'm all ears. I have no problem switching my stance, but I don't value anonymous unsubstantiated opinions in an internet forum over data published by the NCAA.

The numbers published by the NCAA are provided by OU and that’s tickets sold. It’s not actual attendance. So your data is total bull**** as it relates to this argument.

 

[Eielson]

The numbers published by the NCAA are provided by OU and that’s tickets sold. It’s not actual attendance. So your data is total bull**** as it relates to this argument.

The more tickets you sell, the more butts in seats. There's a pretty strong correlation with that. You can't put a butt in a seat without first selling a ticket. Not every person that buys a ticket will make it to the game, but as has repeatedly been stated, this problem is not unique to OU. If you have any data showing this problem is unique to OU, I'd love to see it, and I'm being genuine when I say that.

I've presented imperfect data, yes, but you've presented absolutely none. You can scream "bull****" as loud as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the best data available contradicts your unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[Eielson]

This has been a debate forever.... The "environment"... It's valid.

I've been to LNC, Gallagher Iba, The Reynolds Center, and the Pepsi Center during sold out high profile games. I kid you not, LNC has less atmosphere than even TU.

When TU was having their run back in the day, that place would get so loud you couldn't even think... Because like Gallagher Iba, it's built specific for basketball.

Gallagher Iba has an amazing atmosphere, but I kid you not the upper decks are challenging for older people. It is straight up and down. But again, built for basketball.

I haven't been in enough other college arenas to know, but this is what I have suspected the issue is. We beat OSU in attendance every year, both in tickets sold and percentage of the stadium filled, yet Gallagher-Iba is almost universally regarded as a tougher environment to play in. I don't think it's about "butts in seats."

 

[mict085]

The more tickets you sell, the more butts in seats. There's a pretty strong correlation with that. You can't put a butt in a seat without first selling a ticket. Not every person that buys a ticket will make it to the game, but as has repeatedly been stated, this problem is not unique to OU. If you have any data showing this problem is unique to OU, I'd love to see it, and I'm being genuine when I say that.

I've presented imperfect data, yes, but you've presented absolutely none. You can scream "bull****" as loud as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the best data available contradicts your unsubstantiated opinion.

Maybe you should actually go to a game. Then You would understand that when they announce attendance of 10,000+ and there’s half that many people at the game, MAYBE then you’ll understand.

My guess is, you just enjoy arguing over stupid things such as this.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Building design can help, but fans create the atmosphere more than any other factor. I can't tell you how many times I've stood at a crucial moment during a game in the LNC, only to realize no one within ten rows is on their feet. People can make all the excuses they want, but unfortunately the reality is that we just don't have enough fans who are passionate about basketball, and that started long before the Thunder or HD appeared on the scene. I can remember thinking many times during Kelvin's career that it was a miracle he stayed so long when he had to walk out the tunnel and see a half empty arena for the first two months of the season, even when we were a top ten team.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

I finally got to the LNC last year for my first time. I've read on this board for years, and talked to a an alum in the know, so I was aware of it's poor location, in relation to where campus is. So it was pretty instantly obvious to me why attendance struggles (or a big reason why it struggles).

I know there's not much you can do about building an on-campus arena, but I have to believe the location is a big reason why not as many people go. If it's on campus, it's super easy to walk over and go to a game. When you have to take a bus, or car, or other form or transportation, even if it is just 2 miles (I think), it's all of a sudden become more difficult and becomes a process. I think I've read that there are bus services for students, etc., but even still, that makes you have to plan, etc., as opposed to walking 4/10ths of a mile from your dorm/apartment to the a game on-campus.

This is kind of pointless, b/c I know we're not getting an on-campus arena pretty soon, but without an overly passionate fan base, and an arena that is where it is, it's kind of tough to envision anything ever changing.

I will say this though, and I think that a lot of people on this board feel the same way, but it's so sad to see the arena look like it's 70% empty on TV, when you're in the top-25 and/or fighting for a tourney berth. Especially when the lower bowl always seems to be empty, unless it's a premium game.

 

[skyvue]

I know we're not getting an on-campus arena pretty soon

LNC is on campus, actually. And even if you made it easier for the dorm students and maybe a few (but not all) residents of the Greek houses to get there by building a new arena in the middle of campus, that would make it harder for people traveling from outside Norman to get to games. There's a tradeoff either way.

The Sooners, some years ago, had the longest home winning streak in the country -- that didn't happen by accident. The LNC can get rocking like any other arena. I've heard it, in person and on TV.

I don't know why our students are so disinterested these days, but from what I hear, they're not as passionate about football, either. I do think having every game on TV has an impact, and I'm sure that every improvement in the home viewing experience (larger screens, higher resolution, etc) plays a role too. And the Thunder definitely have an impact as well. I've been to one Thunder game -- a playoff game -- and I'm not sure I'd go back even if I were given free tickets, unless Buddy or Trae of Blake were playing. Leave the former Sooners out of the equation, and I'd choose an OU game every single time over the Thunder.

 

[NY Soonerfan]

LNC is on campus, actually. And even if you made it easier for the dorm students and maybe a few (but not all) residents of the Greek houses to get there by building a new arena in the middle of campus, that would make it harder for people traveling from outside Norman to get to games. There's a tradeoff either way.

The Sooners, some years ago, had the longest home winning streak in the country -- that didn't happen by accident. The LNC can get rocking like any other arena. I've heard it, in person and on TV.

I don't know why our students are so disinterested these days, but from what I hear, they're not as passionate about football, either. I do think having every game on TV has an impact, and I'm sure that every improvement in the home viewing experience (larger screens, higher resolution, etc) plays a role too. And the Thunder definitely have an impact as well. I've been to one Thunder game -- a playoff game -- and I'm not sure I'd go back even if I were given free tickets, unless Buddy or Trae of Blake were playing. Leave the former Sooners out of the equation, and I'd choose an OU game every single time over the Thunder.

OK, I meant more in the area of where the football stadium is and a lot more central than where it seems to be. But your points are valid.

But, to your other point, as an 10-year-old in NY I saw an OU game on TV, and them scoring crazy points, and the fans tossing confetti, and a few years later the Skeeter Meter going wild and was instantly hooked. So that's how I was randomly introduced to OU hoops and fell in love with it. Maybe it wasn't like that for every game back then, but it seems there was a lot more of it going on. And damn Duke was the one that broke that streak, I believe in 1989. In a related note, that was Jim Nantz's first ever CBB game for CBS.

The TV point is a good one too though. But it just seems like if 85k or so can get to a football game, can't 10k show up to a basketball game more than 4-5 a year? I know it's not exactly apples and apples we're talking about, but still.

 

[Eielson]

Maybe you should actually go to a game.

I've been to plenty of games.

 

[Eielson]

OK, I meant more in the area of where the football stadium is and a lot more central than where it seems to be. But your points are valid.

The stadiums aren't all that far from each other. It's not unheard of for people to park at LNC and walk to the football stadium on gameday. I lived a couple miles off of campus when I went to OU, and I actually found it a lot easier to get to LNC for a game. I've rarely had issue parking in the LNC parking lot, even showing up close to game time, and it's free. It's also a lot easier and quicker to get out.

If OU football had zero national championships, rarely competed for conference, and was 6-3 playing a 2-7 KU team on a Monday night with no tailgating, I doubt we'd fill up our football stadium. There are a lot of things working against attendance beyond bad fans.

 

[WaymanFan]

The Sooners, some years ago, had the longest home winning streak in the country -- that didn't happen by accident. The LNC can get rocking like any other arena. I've heard it, in person and on TV.

I just wanted to list a few facts to back up what you're saying in case some of the younger fans were not aware. This season, we've lost two home games in one week. For seven full seasons ('83-'90) we also lost a total of two home games (one to a Lon-Kruger-coached KSU team). Dick Vitale nicknamed Billy Tubbs "The Judge" because he ruled on his home court. Finally, Coach K, after an embarrassing loss to UNLV in the '90 title game, wanted to prepare his Duke teams for tough environments, and chose to play at Norman in December of 1990. Duke won that game, ending OU's 3+ year home winning streak, and went on to win their first NCAA title that spring.

 

[Hollisp]

We aren’t alone in this:

https://apnews.com/a0eefded36e5413e8f813396d5168a0a

 

[Eielson]

I just wanted to list a few facts to back up what you're saying in case some of the younger fans were not aware. This season, we've lost two home games in one week. For seven full seasons ('83-'90) we also lost a total of two home games (one to a Lon-Kruger-coached KSU team). Dick Vitale nicknamed Billy Tubbs "The Judge" because he ruled on his home court. Finally, Coach K, after an embarrassing loss to UNLV in the '90 title game, wanted to prepare his Duke teams for tough environments, and chose to play at Norman in December of 1990. Duke won that game, ending OU's 3+ year home winning streak, and went on to win their first NCAA title that spring.

Didn't we have the longest home winning streak with Hollis for a while as well?

 

[AdaSooner]

We aren’t alone in this:

https://apnews.com/a0eefded36e5413e8f813396d5168a0a

Thank you, Hollisp!

Attendance has been down nearly everywhere for years, but it’s a waste of time trying to convince some of the posters on this board that OU is not the only school struggling to fill seats.

I posted an article two years ago to show that even Duke was not able to fill all 9,314 seats in Cameron Indoor Arena. Keep in mind that’s more than 2,200 fewer seats than the LNC. Duke was still packing the house for the big games, but not for the cupcakes on their schedule.

I’m sure that is not the case this season. Zion Williamson and an exciting top five team since the season began is no doubt packing the house for every game again. Winning and putting a nationally ranked team on the floor is a lot more attractive than being ranked near the bottom of the Big 12 Conference.

Am I saying OU will pack the house for every game if we are competing for conference titles and getting some attention in the national polls again? No, but it will definitely help.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Thank you, Hollisp!

Attendance has been down nearly everywhere for years, but it’s a waste of time trying to convince some of the posters on this board that OU is not the only school struggling to fill seats.

I posted an article two years ago to show that even Duke was not able to fill all 9,314 seats in Cameron Indoor Arena. Keep in mind that’s more than 2,200 fewer seats than the LNC. Duke was still packing the house for the big games, but not for the cupcakes on their schedule.

I’m sure that is not the case this season. Zion Williamson and an exciting top five team since the season began is no doubt packing the house for every game again. Winning and putting a nationally ranked team on the floor is a lot more attractive than being ranked near the bottom of the Big 12 Conference.

Am I saying OU will pack the house for every game if we are competing for conference titles and getting some attention in the national polls again? No, but it will definitely help.

I haven't seen any posters deny that other schools have issues with attendance. My personal feeling is that just because other schools have bad fans/attendance issues, doesn't mean that fans on an OU message board aren't entitled to point out how disheartening it is to see our arena half empty and as quiet as a library for a lot of games.

 

[thebigabd]

So if attendance is down everywhere, that is more societal than anything else.

Every game is on TV... That is a big one.

• More entertainment options available - Xbox/PS4, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, etc.
• More live entertainment available - Oklahoma Casinos now hold tons of concerts and shows that people may rather spend money on. In Tulsa alone, off the top of my head, the following acts have come through - Justin Timberlake, Kelly Clarkson, Foreigner, The Goo Goo Dolls, The Doobie Brothers, Katy Perry, Journey, Metallica, Imagine Dragons, Blake Shelton, Bruno Mars, Red Hot Chili Peppers, and a tons of others.

Another factor may be lack of disposable income. Not to turn the thread political (its more economical, but some will consider it a political issue) but people have less money. Healthcare costs are way up, education costs continue to rise, wages are relatively stagnant... At a lot of people now (many I personally know), people making the median income ($45k to $55k ), are spending upwards of 20%-25% of their income on health insurance for family coverage. That is a gigantic hit.

I don't know what its like in OKC, but in Tulsa we have lost several golf courses that have been around a long time because people just can't afford to play anymore... Some consider that a sign of economic distress.

Whitehawk in Bixby.... closed
Clary Fields in Sapulpa.... closed
Emerald Falls in Broken Arrow.... closed
Scissortail in Claremore..... closed

I have heard Bailey Ranch in Owasso, Meadowbrook CC in Tulsa, and a few others are operating in the red as well. Battle Creek in BA has raised green fees and removed 60% of their bunkers to try and stay afloat...

Any and all of these things may be having an impact on basketball attendance.