Best of Big 12 coaches? Take a look at Self By Steve Walentik

[Cheno]

Cheno are you saying Bill Self is a better coach than Roy Williams?

I have no idea. It's impossible for anyone to answer that question. I've had both coaches at the helm of my favorite team and watched nearly every single game they've coached at KU and I can honestly say I'd rather have Bill Self.

You mean Roy couldn't win the NC at Kansas? I don't think you understand the difference between couldn't and didn't.

Sure I do. You act like Roy never had the chance. In his tenure he had much more chances to win it all than Self has had to date. The '96-97 was by far the best team in the country.

Kansas made a great comeback in 08 and Memphis choked at free throws. So now in revisionist history that makes Self a better coach than he would be if those Memphis free throws had gone in?

No, Self was the same coach whether those went in or not. Perception isn't that though. KU had the great comeback because they didn't panic and kept doing what they needed to do. Memphis was horrible all year from the line. They didn't choke. They shot normal from the line that game.

If the Kansas dude had shot quicker, not gotten blocked by Warrick and made the 3, then Roy "could" have won it all. Or if Memphis hadn't effed up so bad down the stretch, or if Chalmers hadn't made that 3 to tie, Self would have lost.

Sure but look at the situations and there you have your answer. With a national championship on the line, Self ran a play for by far his most clutch player. Chalmers hit big shots game after game. So Self got him the ball.
Roy ran a play for Michael Lee. Michael Lee? A guy off the bench that has a slow release and isn't very athletic to get his own shot off. You could run that same play for Michael Lee 100 times and he may hit 10. I'd have run the play for Hinrich. And my guess is Self would have as well.

I'm arguing with you about coaches and you base your foundation on single games and single plays that were entirely decided by players. Chalmers made a tough shot, Roy's player didn't. Does this reveal any difference between the two coaches?

I'm not basing anything on single games or single players. I've said repeatedly in this thread that Self has won his league race 10 of the last 12 years. He's won 6 of 7 in the Big 12 and was 2nd the other year which was his first year with guys that didn't fit his style. Self has won at ORU, TU, Illinois and KU. Self's winning % at KU is higher than Roy's. I've said all that. Don't know where you get one game, one player from.

 

[Tony]

Methinks the Cheno doth protest too much.

 

[Sawyer]

I think Lavin is an example of a good coach at an elite program. Yes, he did do a lot of good things at UCLA, but a lot of that was because it was UCLA IMO.

 

[Cheno]

Methinks the Cheno doth protest too much.

Meglad you careth so much.

 

[JBaker]

If Rick Barnes is the second-best coach in the league, then this league is filled with horrible coaches.
If we're not taking recruiting into account, Barnes is middle-of-the-pack at best.
Has any team ever gone from number 1 to unranked faster than Texas in the middle of last season?

 

[JBaker]

He's won 6 out of 7 league titles.

He has only won 4.

 

[Cheno]

If Rick Barnes is the second-best coach in the league, then this league is filled with horrible coaches.
If we're not taking recruiting into account, Barnes is middle-of-the-pack at best.

Why would you not take recruiting into account? Recruiting is the most important part of the job. You don't win unless you get players. I don't care how good a coach you are. That's like saying Halle Berry is middle-of-the-pack in a beauty contest if you take beauty out of the equation.

 

[Cheno]

He has only won 4.

No, he's won 6 out of 7 league titles.
He's won 4 out of 7 conference tournament championships.
So in summary, Bill Self has won 10 of the 14 trophy's the Big 12 has handed out during his tenure at KU.
Pretty much answers the "is Bill Self a great coach" don't you think?

 

[Dem Coltz]

No, it's not impossible for anyone to answer the question of whether Bill Self is better than Roy Williams. Williams is a better coach (and yes it is implied in language that this is my opinion, as everything we think/say is filtered through the lens of our own minds/opinion) Jeez. If it's impossible to answer that question, then it's impossible to answer the question "Is Bill Self a great coach?" Both questions are totally subjective. Do you get that? Adjectives like great, and comparisons about something as subjective as "coaching ability" do not have yes or no, right or wrong applications or answers. Like, there is no objective absolute measure that says one coach is better than another, I realize that, I'm not asking you to give me the right answer. Subjective opinions are completely up to the person who believes them. There is no scientific formula to decide what adjective we should describe Self's coaching ability with, and there is no formula to show which coach is better. It's opinion, so one person believes it is so or not so.

Do you think Self is a better basketball coach than Williams? (Including their entire career from when each was first named a head coach up to today when they were out recruiting or cashing checks or whatever coaches do in the summer.)

 

[stoops4pres]

Sure but look at the situations and there you have your answer. With a national championship on the line, Self ran a play for by far his most clutch player. Chalmers hit big shots game after game. So Self got him the ball.
Roy ran a play for Michael Lee. Michael Lee? A guy off the bench that has a slow release and isn't very athletic to get his own shot off. You could run that same play for Michael Lee 100 times and he may hit 10. I'd have run the play for Hinrich. And my guess is Self would have as well.

On elaborating both plays, are you sure that Self did in fact draw the play up for Chalmers, and Roy for Michael Lee?

I am not sure, but I ask you this because neither play looked like it was drawn up from the coaches. For Chalmers, when Derrick Rose made the free throw it looked like Collins was just trying to take it straight to the basket; it didn't appear that it was a drawn play to Chalmers. In fact, to me it looked like Chalmers only received the ball because Collins slipped and nearly fell, thereby tossing the ball to Chalmers to prevent a travel. I could be wrong, but that's what it appeared like.

And as far as Michael Lee, if I remember correctly the play was set for Hinrich; he received the ball at the top of the key and a KU teammate (can't remember who) even set a screen on the Syracuse defender at the left elbow to free up Hinrich to get a shot off. Instead, Hinrich couldn't get a clean shot and then passed it to Lee. Again, I'm not sure but it didn't look like a play designed for Lee to me. Furthermore, I'm willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt because if he did in fact call that play that would have had to of been one of the dumbest decisions in the history of late-game situations.

 

[Dem Coltz]

Well said Stoops4pres, your memory is definitely better than mine but you're right, it seems that the way things really happened is exactly the opposite of what Cheno said and remembers. There was no genius play set up by Self for "his best clutch scorer", nor did Roy draw up a play in the huddle for a corner 3 from Michael Lee. This is interesting for 2 reasons. Number 1, basketball is a game of chaos: when you have a timeout to draw up a play for your best player it totally fails, but I remember that when Collins tripped and fell while dribbling that distracted the defense for a fraction of a second to allow Chalmers to get off a clean shot. Number 2 of course is the ridiculous selective memory of us fans. We retrospectively deify a coach for clutch play calling when he apparently drew up a play where the ball handler was supposed to stumble and fall and shovel it to the closest man to avoid traveling. Brilliant. Also he called a play for Memphis to miss their free throw that would have iced it. Only a "great" coach like Self can control the free throw shooting of other teams.

 

[campbest]

The X's and O's of the game are not that hard to master, I think defining a coach by primarily that attribute is very flawed. Steve Alford (who is just a good coach) doesn't even draw up the offensive plays in his huddle, his assistant does. This happens quite a bit around the country, that is what assistants are for. IMO, I am more impressed with how a coach is able to recruit and assemble his team on a yearly basis which fits his system. Furthermore, how do those players play together? Is the coach able to get them to compete as a unit? Is he getting optimal performance out of the talent at his disposal? Which in today's game is more and more difficult.

I think Self is a great coach because he wins at every stop of his career. Only reason Weber and the Illini sniffed a championship was because of Self...not because Kruger "left the cupboard full" when Self took over.

P.S. after watching Chalmer's shot again, it is pretty easy to deduce what play was drawn up. All Self (or some assistant) was trying to do was create some space over a dribble hand-off, pretty basic stuff for anyone in the college game. Appears Sherron decided to go up the middle of the floor because he saw an opening or Rose cut off the sideline, don't know the answer because I'm not in Sherron's head. With that said, you can see Sherron hedging toward the right wing once he crosses half-court and Chalmers' movement is very indicative of a dribble hand-off play. Obviously Sherron slipls which makes the sequence appear more "lucky" than it actually was. Just my two cents though.

 

[Cheno]

On elaborating both plays, are you sure that Self did in fact draw the play up for Chalmers, and Roy for Michael Lee?
I am not sure, but I ask you this because neither play looked like it was drawn up from the coaches. For Chalmers, when Derrick Rose made the free throw it looked like Collins was just trying to take it straight to the basket; it didn't appear that it was a drawn play to Chalmers. In fact, to me it looked like Chalmers only received the ball because Collins slipped and nearly fell, thereby tossing the ball to Chalmers to prevent a travel. I could be wrong, but that's what it appeared like.

Yes, Self drew up the play. KU runs that play all the time. PG penetrates, SG (Chalmers & Rush a bunch that year) peels back towards the top of the key, PG shuffles the pass for the 3. Anyone who has watched KU has seen the play a lot. Collins did slip which made the play look awkward but that was the play. I've read comments even talking about it being drawn up that way. And why down 3 would you drive to the hoop for a 2 with so little time on the clock. Here's the link.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbOxL-DnDSg[/ame]

Here's the Syracuse play. So your contention is Roy set up a play for Hinrich to spot up 6 feet beyond the 3pt line for a 3? Well then that's stupid as well. Look at the entire makeup of this play. Everyone knows Syracuse plays zone. So you have Simien set a screen on the other half of the court on the OPPOSITE side of Hinrich leaving an easy play for the defender to get a hand up on Hinrichs side of the zone and easily step out to defend the shot? That is even stupider. Hinrich was 6 feet behind the 3pt line and the guy easily got a hand up. I guess I was giving Roy the benefit of the doubt in that he was looking for a quick ball reversal to Lee in the corner. There was no guard penetration. This play had zero chance of working. Against a zone you can't throw it from the wing to the top of the key, 6 feet deep, and expect to get a good look from 3 when the defense knows you have to shoot a 3. Horrible play with little chance to succeed. You needed Miles at the point with Hinrich spotting up on a wing and the bigs pinching their men down to keep them from going out.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMZfZGCbH_4[/ame]

Well said Stoops4pres, your memory is definitely better than mine but you're right, it seems that the way things really happened is exactly the opposite of what Cheno said and remembers.

Ummm, no.
It's hilarious that you are arguing with me about KU and the plays they run.
Seems to me a few of you are letting your hatred or jealousy of Bill Self get in the way. Again, KU runs that Chalmers play all the time. It's a form of the weave play that Sampson use to run a lot. Plus why in the world would they being trying to get a layup down 3 with just a few seconds left? Seriously.

Number 2 of course is the ridiculous selective memory of us fans. We retrospectively deify a coach for clutch play calling when he apparently drew up a play where the ball handler was supposed to stumble and fall and shovel it to the closest man to avoid traveling. Brilliant. Also he called a play for Memphis to miss their free throw that would have iced it. Only a "great" coach like Self can control the free throw shooting of other teams.

Selective memory is ridiculous. Of course Self didn't call for Memphis to miss free throws. Memphis did that all year. That is what they did. Announcers talked all year about how it would come back to haunt them.
What is ridiculous is to dismiss Bill Self's national championship to "Memphis choking at the line" and not giving Self any credit. That's ridiculous. KU also gave Memphis more free throw opportunties and made mistakes as well the last 2 minutes. But nobody wants to bring that up. Memphis doesn't miss 2 free throws if Darrell Arthur simply blocks out on one free throw. Mistakes were made by both teams. KU prevailed. KU was calmer under pressure. And let's not forget the game did go to overtime and KU dominated them.

But yeah, go ahead and keep arguing that you know more about KU than me and that Bill Self isn't a great coach. That's just silly.

 

[stoops4pres]

Collins did slip which made the play look awkward but that was the play. I've read comments even talking about it being drawn up that way. And why down 3 would you drive to the hoop for a 2 with so little time on the clock.

As I prefaced in my previous post, I wasn't sure whether it was drawn up or not, which was why I asked you since you're a KU fan. And yes, Collins slipping (and appearing to only pass when he started to fall, trying to prevent a travel) was what made me question whether or not the play was drawn up. But now that question is resolved.

And if the play wasn't drawn up, I could see Collins making a mental error driving to the lane based on the fact that he may have not been thinking they were down 3. It was the National Championship with only a few seconds to go on the clock, I could see him not thinking logically and frantically just trying to make a play. Obviously that wasn't the case since the play was in fact drawn up, but had it not been I can see that being a reason for why Collins would initially attempt to take it to the hole.

And as for the Syracuse play, like I said I wasn't sure, as I was going by memory of a play that happened 7 years ago. I thought I had remembered the screen being set on the left defender at the elbow (which obviously now it was set on the opposite defender), which IMO would have been a better play drawn up since it attempted to give their best guard Hinrich more room to make a play. And I guess I shouldn't have given Roy the benefit of the doubt; calling a play for Michael Lee of all players is a pretty dense call.

 

[playmakr]

Cheno is bringing the A game in this thread.

 

[SoonerBounce13]

Seems to me a few of you are letting your hatred or jealousy of Bill Self get in the way.

exactly

 

[JBaker]

No, he's won 6 out of 7 league titles.
He's won 4 out of 7 conference tournament championships.
So in summary, Bill Self has won 10 of the 14 trophy's the Big 12 has handed out during his tenure at KU.
Pretty much answers the "is Bill Self a great coach" don't you think?

Which game are you guys hanging your "2010 Regular Season National Champions" banner this year?

 

[TINY]

Collins did slip which made the play look awkward but that was the play. I've read comments even talking about it being drawn up that way.

Ummm, no.
It's hilarious that you are arguing with me about KU and the plays they run.
Seems to me a few of you are letting your hatred or jealousy of Bill Self get in the way. Again, KU runs that Chalmers play all the time. It's a form of the weave play that Sampson use to run a lot. Plus why in the world would they being trying to get a layup down 3 with just a few seconds left? Seriously.

I like Bill Self, always have, he's an excellent coach, no doubt about it! If i could choose between he or Roy, I'm takin Self, that's just me.

He's the best in the Big12 by a decent margin, imo.

Cheno, do you really think Self drew it up for Sharon to almost travel? :facepalm you need to take the blinders off, if that is the case. That was a very lucky play, and it was not drawn up like that, imo.
No way to know unless you were in the huddle, so anyone's opinion on this is just that.
Who really cares? The ball got back to Chalmers, and he made the shot of his life!

This kinda irked me, though, Cheno..Why is it 'hilarious' when a non-ku fan argues with you about KU?

Yet, you come here everyday to argue about OU with OU fans...

I have seen very few OU fans here just completely blow off your opinion based on the fact you're a jayhawk, like you did Stoops4pres.

 

[campbest]

I like Bill Self, always have, he's an excellent coach, no doubt about it! If i could choose between he or Roy, I'm takin Self, that's just me.

He's the best in the Big12 by a decent margin, imo.

Cheno, do you really think Self drew it up for Sharon to almost travel? :facepalm you need to take the blinders off, if that is the case. That was a very lucky play, and it was not drawn up like that, imo.
No way to know unless you were in the huddle, so anyone's opinion on this is just that.
Who really cares? The ball got back to Chalmers, and he made the shot of his life!

This kinda irked me, though, Cheno..Why is it 'hilarious' when a non-ku fan argues with you about KU?

Yet, you come here everyday to argue about OU with OU fans...

I have seen very few OU fans here just completely blow off your opinion based on the fact you're a jayhawk, like you did Stoops4pres.

The presumption that Sherron slipped on purpose is purely comical and if anyone thinks that is a remote possibility than I feel sorry for them.

However, the play is a dribble hand-off...it is very easy to see from the video, regardless which team you root for.

 

[bigredrl]

The coach that fell on his face last year with great talent was Rick Barnes! No way should he be picked second.