Best of Big 12 coaches? Take a look at Self By Steve Walentik

[Max Power]

There's really no good way to separate team building (recruiting and player development) and gameday coaching. Some argue they're not the same thing. Others feel they are. There's also the prestige factor that's impossible to measure (put Pat Knight at kansas and Bill Self at Texas Tech and I bet the list changes dramatically, but no one knows for sure).

The exact order really doesn't matter much, though. I'd say any of the top six (from my list; Self, Barnes, Anderson, Martin, Turgeon, Drew) would be successful at most jobs and are arguably interchangeable when you factor in inherent advantages/disadvantages and personal bias/preference.

Capel's close to that group, and Ford may be, as well, but both have yet to establish over a period of years that they can build a winner. Sadler would be a good coach if he had a program that he could recruit for on name only. Knight IMO is just not a good coach, and the last two are too unproven to say anything about right now.

This

 

[Cheno]

I realize there was loads of "wasted talent" last year, but I see those guys as wasted potential rather than talent. They weren't great, they could have been great. Big difference. They could have been great because of their athletic ability, but their behavior and origin prevented them reaching full potential. Working hard is a talent, a lot of people don't have it. Rick Barnes has been burned by potential and talent without attitude before,

But part of being a great coach is getting "attitude" to buy in. It's ridiculous for anyone here to suggest Rick Barnes teams didn't have the same "attitudes" that plagued OU's team last year. We just don't know. Maybe he handled them differently. Like I said, who knows. The bottom line is Rick Barnes has had success. Multiple Elite 8's and a FF4 speak to that. Who is all this great wasted talent? Who are these great players that Texas has had. Kevin Durant is the only Texas player setting the world on fire in the NBA and he only played one year and that team did well considering they started 4 freshmen and a sophmore. They had a really good season, just lost a round or two early in the big dance.

And I realize Self has achieved a lot, he is no doubt a great recruiter. Best coach in this conference? Probably. But Great coach is what I said, and to me he's not. As a game coach he's shaky in my opinion. And winning a NC recently is the reason some now consider him great, whereas before that those same people thought he was overrated because he lost early in the tournament one too many times.

I thought he was great long before 2008. I thought he was great when he came in and turned ORU around quickly. I then KNEW he was great when he moved on to Tulsa and took Tulsa to an Elite 8. Yes, Tulsa to an Elite 8.
He may not be a great coach to you but to 95% of college basketball he is.
You don't get the Illinois and KU jobs without having a reputation in the industry of being a great coach. You don't luck into those jobs.

 

[Cheno]

There's also the prestige factor that's impossible to measure (put Pat Knight at kansas and Bill Self at Texas Tech and I bet the list changes dramatically, but no one knows for sure).

But that's why Pat Knight is at Texas Tech and Bill Self is at KU.
You don't get the job at KU without being a GREAT coach. If Pat Knight was a great coach he'd be, or in a position someday to be, at a heckuva lot better job than Texas Tech. I don't EVER here his name being mentioned for other jobs and honestly, I think he's lucky to have the one he has. And I know you were just throwing those names out there for comparison but the bottom line to the people who say it's easy to win at KU, UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc...well yes it is easier, but you don't get those jobs unless you are a great coach. I truly don't see how anyone could argue that Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self and John Calipari aren't great basketball coaches.

 

[Max Power]

But Cheno, sometime people do luck into Elite jobs. Not saying Self did, he more than proved himself at ORU and TU. But the facts remain that some people prove absolutely nothing, know somebody, and get a coaching job they don't deserve

 

[5hrenergy]

But that's why Pat Knight is at Texas Tech and Bill Self is at KU.
You don't get the job at KU without being a GREAT coach. If Pat Knight was a great coach he'd be, or in a position someday to be, at a heckuva lot better job than Texas Tech. I don't EVER here his name being mentioned for other jobs and honestly, I think he's lucky to have the one he has. And I know you were just throwing those names out there for comparison but the bottom line to the people who say it's easy to win at KU, UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc...well yes it is easier, but you don't get those jobs unless you are a great coach. I truly don't see how anyone could argue that Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self and John Calipari aren't great basketball coaches.

Exactly. It's not like Self just walked into the KU job by pure luck. He started at ORU who at the time was just awful and completely turned them around. Went to TU and made them better and came within a hair of the FF. Onto Illinois where once again improved the team and then at Kansas following a HOF coach in Roy Williams has accomplished things Roy never did at Kansas and yet the guy can't coach...... Sure people.

 

[Cheno]

But Cheno, sometime people do luck into Elite jobs. Not saying Self did, he more than proved himself at ORU and TU. But the facts remain that some people prove absolutely nothing, know somebody, and get a coaching job they don't deserve

Average coaches "luck" themselves into Elite jobs????? Like who? I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a name but it's an anomly. Great coaches keep elite jobs. Average coaches keep average jobs. That's how it works.
With the state of the KU program over the last 20 years if Bill Self wasn't a great coach he wouldn't still have the job 8 years later. It's as simple as that.

 

[Max Power]

Average coaches "luck" themselves into Elite jobs????? Like who? I'm sure you'll be able to come up with a name but it's an anomly. Great coaches keep elite jobs. Average coaches keep average jobs. That's how it works.
With the state of the KU program over the last 20 years if Bill Self wasn't a great coach he wouldn't still have the job 8 years later. It's as simple as that.

that's why i said sometimes. It is an anomaly but it does happen. and did you read all my post? I gave Self credit

 

[Cheno]

that's why i said sometimes. It is an anomaly but it does happen. and did you read all my post? I gave Self credit

You gave Self credit? You said in 3 years Mike Anderson and Scott Drew would be considered better coaches. :facepalm

It may happen that a coach lucks into an elite job when he doesn't deserve it, but if it does they typically flame out quickly (ala Matt Doherty and Billy Gillespie), they don't win their BCS conference 6 of 7 years and a national championship and two elite 8's in 7 years. They don't win numerous national coach of the year awards. They aren't 93-19 in one of the toughest basketball conferences in America. They don't have the highest overall winning % of all NCAA coaches in those 7 years. Please, save yourself the embarrasment.

If Matt Doherty or Billy Gillespie do that in their first 7 years at UNC & Kentucky then they are still the coaches and statues are being erected.

The average coach is average regardless of where he is at. The great coach is great regardless of where he's at. It's that simple.

 

[Max Power]

You gave Self credit? You said in 3 years Mike Anderson and Scott Drew would be considered better coaches. :facepalm

It may happen that a coach lucks into an elite job when he doesn't deserve it, but if it does they typically flame out quickly (ala Matt Doherty and Billy Gillespie), they don't win their BCS conference 6 of 7 years and a national championship and two elite 8's in 7 years. They don't win numerous national coach of the year awards. They aren't 93-19 in one of the toughest basketball conferences in America. Please, save yourself the embarrasment.

If Matt Doherty or Billy Gillespie do that in their first 7 years at UNC & Kentucky then they are still the coaches and statues are being erected.

But right there are two guys that lucked into elite jobs. And I said "Self more than proved himself at ORU and TU" I'm pretty sure that is giving a guy credit buy you must not know how to read. And I said Drew and Anderson would be considered the best in 3 years, i don't expect Self to stay there that long. I think the Big 12 will dissolve, since no one has actually signed on yet, and he will try his hand at the NBA. Therefore if you aren't coaching college, you can't be considered the best college coach.

 

[thebigabd]

I can't imagine Bill Self in the NBA. He is such a great coach, teacher, and mentor for college players.

Is that a rumor going around or did you pull that out of thin air?

 

[Max Power]

I can't imagine Bill Self in the NBA. He is such a great coach, teacher, and mentor for college players.

Is that a rumor going around or did you pull that out of thin air?

Rumor I heard when the Big 12 was looking to dissolve the first time from a couple of friends of mine that went to KU

 

[Cheno]

But right there are two guys that lucked into elite jobs.

I wouldn't say they "lucked" into them. They both had impressive resumes. They just proved not to be great coaches. And you have to be great at those places or you get fed to the wolves. That's another point to prove that Bill Self is a great coach.

And I said Drew and Anderson would be considered the best in 3 years, i don't expect Self to stay there that long. I think the Big 12 will dissolve, since no one has actually signed on yet, and he will try his hand at the NBA. Therefore if you aren't coaching college, you can't be considered the best college coach.

Oh. My. Goodness. Yeah, that's what you meant.
So what you are saying NOW is that you expect the Big 12 to dissolve so in 3 years you don't think Bill Self will be the best coach in the Big 12 (because it's dissolved) but yet in 3 years you think Scott Drew and Mike Anderson will be the best coaches in the Big 12 that you say is dissolving? I would just quit now if I was you. That makes no sense.

 

[Sawyer]

bottom line to the people who say it's easy to win at KU, UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc...well yes it is easier, but you don't get those jobs unless you are a great coach.

Matt Doherty, Billy Gillispie, Steve Lavin... plenty of elite programs have had less than elite coaches. It's ridiculous to suggest elite programs only hire elite coaches.

 

[Dem Coltz]

Yes Self is a good coach. He's also followed two excellent coaches who left him with full cupboards. Lon Kruger, who made Illinois serious contenders and had a great team when Self walked into the door after Kruger tried the NBA. Oh and how about walking into Roy Williams' shoes the year after they lost the NC by 2 or 3 points. Yes Self is a great recruiter and obviously handles his kids well. But I just don't think he's elite. That's just my opinion people, if you don't like it too bad. And no, I don't think elite programs only hire "elite" coaches, in fact I'd say it's rare that "elite" coaches move around. Usually "up and comers" who are ambitious are the ones who tend to jump to elite programs. That is unless you think Bill Guthridge, a great assistant no doubt, was an elite head coach. And to give example to my opinion that whose shoes you fill matters, Dean Smith tossed him a softball and even Guthridge got to the final four with the best team in the country bar none in 98. Then the program started to decline, but not before they made a crazy run in 2000 as an 8th seed. So Guthridge made 2 final fours in 3 years. Was he an elite coach?

 

[Cheno]

Matt Doherty, Billy Gillispie, Steve Lavin... plenty of elite programs have had less than elite coaches. It's ridiculous to suggest elite programs only hire elite coaches.

Yes, and they all got fired. Doherty coached 3 years and had a losing record in the ACC. Gillespie coached 2 years, never won an NCAA tourney game and had personal issues. And Lavin I actually don't think was that bad a coach. That last year going 10-19 just can't happen at UCLA. His other years they were good. He made 5 Sweet 16's in 6 years before that.

Where as Bill Self has dominated at KU. To say anything different just isn't factual. In his 7 years at KU no other coach in D1 has won more games. He's 93-19 in Big 12 play. He's won 6 out of 7 league titles. He got 2nd his first year with not his guys. In the 7 years he's won a national championship and went to two Elite 8's. What he's done at KU is amazing and has never been done before.

Again, elite coaches get elite jobs and excel at them and keep them. Not so elite coaches get fired. Bill Self ain't getting fired anytime soon. Why? Because he's a great coach.

 

[Cheno]

Yes Self is a good coach. He's also followed two excellent coaches who left him with full cupboards.

Yes, and he won even bigger. KU's cupboards are much fuller now with Bill Self than Roy Williams.

Oh and how about walking into Roy Williams' shoes the year after they lost the NC by 2 or 3 points.

Yeah and lost Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich. Two lottery picks. Let's not act like that entire team was back the next year. And regardless Self took that team the next year in his first year to the Elite 8. Then when he got a full team of his guys he won a national championship. Roy couldn't do that. He had many chances.

So Guthridge made 2 final fours in 3 years. Was he an elite coach?

I can't answer that. He only coached 3 years. But he made the Final Four in two of those. Was named Naismith national coach of the year. Led UNC to it's most regular season wins in school history. So yeah, he was pretty damn good.

 

[thebigabd]

And Lavin I actually don't think was that bad a coach. That last year going 10-19 just can't happen at UCLA. His other years they were good. He made 5 Sweet 16's in 6 years before that.

I would bet money that Lavin does a good job at St. Johns.....

 

[Cheno]

I would bet money that Lavin does a good job at St. Johns.....

I agree. He got a little bit of the shaft at UCLA.

 

[Dem Coltz]

Cheno are you saying Bill Self is a better coach than Roy Williams? Roy "couldn't do that"? You mean Roy couldn't win the NC at Kansas? I don't think you understand the difference between couldn't and didn't. Kansas made a great comeback in 08 and Memphis choked at free throws. So now in revisionist history that makes Self a better coach than he would be if those Memphis free throws had gone in? My question is why. If the Kansas dude had shot quicker, not gotten blocked by Warrick and made the 3, then Roy "could" have won it all. Or if Memphis hadn't effed up so bad down the stretch, or if Chalmers hadn't made that 3 to tie, Self would have lost.

This is silly though thinking about it, i'm kind of stupid. I'm arguing about nothing. Self is an excellent coach. I'm arguing with you about coaches and you base your foundation on single games and single plays that were entirely decided by players. Chalmers made a tough shot, Roy's player didn't. Does this reveal any difference between the two coaches?

 

[thebigabd]

I agree. He got a little bit of the shaft at UCLA.

No kidding... He signed the #1 class in the country 2 times while at UCLA, was Pac-10 Coach of the Year, has a 10-1 record in the first two rounds of the NCAA Tournament (which is #2 in NCAA Tournament History), and went to 5 Sweet 16's.