Can't wait till this "Ford Stsyem" gets exposed

[CrimsonOberon]

I'll give props to Sutton in that he could get some talent to Stillwater - he just wasn't all that good at coaching them up.

I agree with HoHum, we need to see what he does this year without Eaton at point. It is hard to say one way or the other if he just benefited from Sutton's recruiting.

 

[Seymore Cox]

I'll give props to Sutton in that he could get some talent to Stillwater - he just wasn't all that good at coaching them up.

I agree with HoHum, we need to see what he does this year without Eaton at point. It is hard to say one way or the other if he just benefited from Sutton's recruiting.

You look at some of the guys they lost like Fleming, who's projected in the draft, Cooper, who is still a talent, Ibrahima Thomas, and Brumbaugh, they could have been really good.

 

[AdaSooner]

I'm a little late to this dance. But if DM and a few other regulars around here would come clean about their predictions before the season began, they would have to say OSU surprised the heck out of a few people.

I know one thing, there is no way I would have guessed that Ford could have gotten so much out of a guard-dominated team with no bigs worth a flip. The jury may still be out on him to some extent. But he got his kids to play hard and that's a good beginning for any coach.

 

[Seymore Cox]

I thought OSU would have a worse year than they did, but not because of lack of overall talent. I thought it would be because of lack of size and poor coaching. Ford did sacrifice alot of his bogus philosophy by benching Munelo and turning Page into more of a role player/facilitator. Anderson and Muenelo are still ultra talented and I think once they are gone, OSU will struggle. That style doesnt win and Ray Penn and Roger Franklin aren't the talents of those two.

 

[CarlWeathers]

But arguably brian williams and markel brown are, as well as pilgrim.

I know you aren't a big fan of roger franklin but when schools like ucla and michigan state are knocking at his door then I know ford isn't the only person out there convinced of his abilities.

 

[Seymore Cox]

But arguably brian williams and markel brown are, as well as pilgrim.

I know you aren't a big fan of roger franklin but when schools like ucla and michigan state are knocking at his door then I know ford isn't the only person out there convinced of his abilities.

Weathers, don't go there. UT, and KU weren't knocking on brian williams door and Pilgrim didn't average 9pts at Hampton and Calipari kept Perry Stephenson and Josh Harrellson over him. I like Brown, but at this point I can't say he'll be better than Muenelo, Harris, or Anderson.

As far as your comment about me not being a big fan of Franklin, you obviously haven't read too many Franklin related posts of my. I wanted Franklin over Orton, Dennis, and for that fact, Williams. Franklin is a great kid, a great Christian, and will be an outstanding player. However, he has not proven he can hit shots from 12ft in. Until he does that, he can't be mentioned in the same breath with those guys.

 

[HoHum]

I thought OSU would have a worse year than they did, but not because of lack of overall talent. I thought it would be because of lack of size and poor coaching. Ford did sacrifice alot of his bogus philosophy by benching Munelo and turning Page into more of a role player/facilitator. Anderson and Muenelo are still ultra talented and I think once they are gone, OSU will struggle. That style doesnt win and Ray Penn and Roger Franklin aren't the talents of those two.

I guess I'm sort of confused. You acknowledge that Ford made a good coaching decision, but you don't think that's a sign that he's a flexible coach that will go with what works?

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Bottom line IMHO is that the difference between the two programs start at the top as Capel > Ford. OU, even without "great" fan support, is easier to recruit to than oSu. Even with Eddie there, OU routinely got better Oklahoma kids from urban areas.

Fact is that overall OU is a better program. But for a team full of draft dogers that were permitted to play at an agricultural school in the 40's, oSu would have no national championships in basketball. Cheating? No. But Kurland was a fluke deal. See Olympics for how inept Iba really was.

Point: St. Eddie and Ratty screwed that program, and Ford may as well be an Edsel as compared to Capel [Mercedes]. Proof is in the pudding: #1 overall in the NBA and another lottery pick will ensure that the best Oklahoma/Regional talent will still look at OU first. oSu. Meh, nice little run with Ford last season...but from what I hear he is just waiting for a good opportunity to get out of Stillwater and the goobers running things up there [while Capel is LOVING Norman].

Tell you what, there are THREE McDAA on OU's team next season, probably have at least THREE next season. More worried about UT and KU that I am about oSu anymore, that is our real competition for both players and national stature. oSu had a nice once in fifty years run under Sutton, things going back to normal now.

 

[Seymore Cox]

I guess I'm sort of confused. You acknowledge that Ford made a good coaching decision, but you don't think that's a sign that he's a flexible coach that will go with what works?

I don't think he's a good coach. He made a smart move last year by changing the approach of games. Running everything through Eaton and letting him decide how things happened was smart. Making Anderson the primary scorer instead of it being a free for all between Anderson, Muenelo, Eaton, Page, and harris was also a good move. Can't underscore the fact they played a little better defense and gave all of Kirkland's minutes to Moses was a good move.

The Problem is when you don't recruit any back to the basket scorers because you have no intentions of utilizing post players is where he philosophy is flawed. Walker, Akol, Pilgrim, nor Shaw will give you back to the basket point, probably. The best back to the basket scorers are probably Muenelo, Moses, and Franklin and those guys aren't the biggest fellows.

 

[HoHum]

I don't think he's a good coach. He made a smart move last year by changing the approach of games. Running everything through Eaton and letting him decide how things happened was smart. Making Anderson the primary scorer instead of it being a free for all between Anderson, Muenelo, Eaton, Page, and harris was also a good move. Can't underscore the fact they played a little better defense and gave all of Kirkland's minutes to Moses was a good move.

The Problem is when you don't recruit any back to the basket scorers because you have no intentions of utilizing post players is where he philosophy is flawed. Walker, Akol, Pilgrim, nor Shaw will give you back to the basket point, probably. The best back to the basket scorers are probably Muenelo, Moses, and Franklin and those guys aren't the biggest fellows.

Looking at Ford's UMASS teams, he had two posts that averaged 13+ points a game. And neither of them shot three's (literally, zero), so they were getting their points in the paint.

Also looking at some pretty incomplete Eastern Kentucky stats (no heights on the players), he had guys who were in the top two scoring wise (13-15 a game), and shot zero 3 points and pulled down quite a bit of rebounds.

Maybe I'm stretching on the EKU stuff, but from the evidence they seem to be post players.

More evidence that he's used post players when he's had them. Added to the fact Moses WAS used once he established himself as a threat in the paint.

I just don't know where you're getting your opinion.

 

[elmocarp]

DM, I love you man but I am really confused by this thread. Do you really think Ford isn't a good coach? I don't get it, the guy is sort of douchie, sure, but I think he is doing and is likely to keep doing a great job at OSU. I love it that he is at OSU because he is going to keep them pretty good and he is super easy to hate.

As far as his system goes, I think its fair to wonder if it can succeed against teams during the second and third weekends of the tournament. But why can't they be successful running that style? Do you think teams like Missouri or Louisville are illegitimate as well? I'm not sure I understand.

Also, what reason do we have to think he doesn't value big men? I mean, he can only play with the guys he's got, right? I think that logic could also lead someone to say that Capel hasn't valued point guard play because there hasn't been a true point guard in the program during his first three seasons. It takes a while to get the guys you need to do your thing.

And I really, really don't get what you are saying about Moses. I thought the guy played really well for them and I don't think he looks anything like a perimeter player. The dude is built like a tank and he handles himself pretty well on the glass. He is short for his position, but he is plenty strong and plenty active.

Look, I understand not liking OSU, not liking Ford, not liking Moses, whatever...but I think sometimes we can let that intense dislike cause us to see things that just aren't there. Just my take and I certainly don't want to rub anyone the wrong way. But I don't think the criticisms of OSU in this thread ring very true.

 

[OKhoops]

DM you should just simply say, "I hate OSU and feel like messing with their fans". Its the only way you are going to come out of this not looking dumb. This is all really strange coming from one of the most level headed posters on the site...

 

[Mr.B!!!]

"I hate OSU and feel like messing with their fans".

I can get behind this statement 100%.

Really, I hate them less than I used to with the Sutton's runing the show. :kelvin

 

[Dignon003]

I can get behind this statement 100%.

Really, I hate them less than I used to with the Sutton's runing the show. :kelvin

We're having the same issue with Capel as compared to Kelvin Sampson. Bringing in Kellen helped, but it just wasn't the same hatred. I mean his "hell hole" comment helped, but It just doesn't feel right yet.

 

[Seymore Cox]

DM you should just simply say, "I hate OSU and feel like messing with their fans". Its the only way you are going to come out of this not looking dumb. This is all really strange coming from one of the most level headed posters on the site...

I hate his philosophy. I think he, Drew, and a handful of other coaches have a shoot first ask questions later philosophy. Their offense is based on guys basically being volume shooters and not running any offense through their bigs. They also showed that they both are poor defensive coaches. I do credit Ford for making adjustments late in the season where as Drew didnt. If you disagree with my observation of those two guys coaching philosophies I welcome you to counter with your observation.

 

[elmocarp]

I hate his philosophy. I think he, Drew, and a handful of other coaches have a shoot first ask questions later philosophy. Their offense is based on guys basically being volume shooters and not running any offense through their bigs. They also showed that they both are poor defensive coaches. I do credit Ford for making adjustments late in the season where as Drew didnt. If you disagree with my observation of those two guys coaching philosophies I welcome you to counter with your observation.

Did I do that? That was my intention at least...

 

[Seymore Cox]

Did I do that? That was my intention at least...

DM, I love you man but I am really confused by this thread. Do you really think Ford isn't a good coach? I don't get it, the guy is sort of douchie, sure, but I think he is doing and is likely to keep doing a great job at OSU. I love it that he is at OSU because he is going to keep them pretty good and he is super easy to hate.

As far as his system goes, I think its fair to wonder if it can succeed against teams during the second and third weekends of the tournament. But why can't they be successful running that style? Do you think teams like Missouri or Louisville are illegitimate as well? I'm not sure I understand.

Also, what reason do we have to think he doesn't value big men? I mean, he can only play with the guys he's got, right? I think that logic could also lead someone to say that Capel hasn't valued point guard play because there hasn't been a true point guard in the program during his first three seasons. It takes a while to get the guys you need to do your thing.

And I really, really don't get what you are saying about Moses. I thought the guy played really well for them and I don't think he looks anything like a perimeter player. The dude is built like a tank and he handles himself pretty well on the glass. He is short for his position, but he is plenty strong and plenty active.

Look, I understand not liking OSU, not liking Ford, not liking Moses, whatever...but I think sometimes we can let that intense dislike cause us to see things that just aren't there. Just my take and I certainly don't want to rub anyone the wrong way. But I don't think the criticisms of OSU in this thread ring very true.

First Carp, I think you have a misconception about running styles. The best running team in basketball cut down the nets last year. They also played the best tourney defense that I have seen in years. Many will tell you that a running style is based on defensive rebounds, turnovers, and quite often made baskets. OSU doesn't have that style last year. Their style was to pitch and shoot. shooting low percentage shots by working outside out instead of like most teams working inside out. Missouri and Louisville styles are based on high pressure, sometimes full court. Those teams offensive philosophy was based on a defensive strategy. OSU's style early was based on volume shooting. During their winning streak, they actually scored at a lower rate than early on. That's because he changed his style up and valued each possession a little more and passed around to get better looks. I admit they got Moses involved a little more, but not enough to consider a real focal point in the offense.

Now what's to say the last 12 games of OSU aren't truly the identity of Ford's philosophy? I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the fact that six out of nine of the pledge players that Ford has garnered are perimeter players a on paper and the three post players are offensive projects leads me to believe the first 20 games are really Ford instead of the last 10.

 

[Sawyer]

Oh I watched plenty of OSU games, and when Moses did get touches, alot of them came on the baseline at about 15-18ft extended. From there he used either a quick baseline move or he shot the 18ftr. But let's take into extent who Moses is. He's really a guy who should be a wing. The reason he became effective is he was hard for post players to match up against. That is mid major ball. That is the mid major philosphy incorporated by Doc Sadler, Scottie Drew, and Ford that may be effective for a little bit, but is ineffective over the long hall. You can't get a Michael Cobbins, or a Luke Cothron with that as a model.

What's mid-major about post guys taking their man away from the basket? That's done at all levels of basketball.

Now... playing four guards at all times, THAT is pretty mid-major. But it's not like OSU had a ton of options in the post last season.

 

[DFWHoopster]

I hate his philosophy. I think he, Drew, and a handful of other coaches have a shoot first ask questions later philosophy. Their offense is based on guys basically being volume shooters and not running any offense through their bigs. They also showed that they both are poor defensive coaches. I do credit Ford for making adjustments late in the season where as Drew didnt. If you disagree with my observation of those two guys coaching philosophies I welcome you to counter with your observation.

Drew definitely made a late season adjustment defensively- hiding the weaknesses of his slow-footed big men (Diene/Lomers)- by implementing an 2-3 aggressive zone. Baylor won 7 of their last 9 and all 7 of those wins were against winning teams (Neb, KU, UT, Georgetown, VT, Auburn, SD St).

But the biggest lift to Baylor's defense at the end of the year was the play of Kevin Rogers. He was terrific in post season and his lack of intensity/focus during conference play was the biggest reason in my opinion as to why Baylor was below average defensively.

 

[Cheno]

Drew definitely made a late season adjustment defensively- hiding the weaknesses of his slow-footed big men (Diene/Lomers)- by implementing an 2-3 aggressive zone.

Jeez, another Drew post. :woot
The fact it took him 3/4ths of the season to realize Diene & Lomers were slow-footed and couldn't keep up in man-to-man pretty much sums it all up about Drew now doesn't it? But I guess when you have a lock down defender on the perimeter like Lace Dunn it's hard to switch things up. :ez-laugh: That's sarcasm...Lace Dunn couldn't guard me in a phone booth.
So you have two of the slowest footed big men in the world and your best offensive player is a horrible defensive player who has no interest in that end of the floor and it takes you until the Big 12 tourney to say "hey...what do you think about playing some zone". Ridiculous.