Football question

WichitaSooner said:
This is his only head coaching job and he’s under .500 against conference opponents and right at .500 overall or maybe a game under against all power conference opponents. That’s elite? I didn’t realize he gets credit for the wins that he was part of as a DC. So by that theory, Grinch was a great coach when he was here because the program won double digit games and made the playoff more often that not? There are hundreds of examples of coaches at the pro and college level in every sport who were great as assistants but clearly not up to the challenge of being a head coach. The jobs are completely different. You have one specific job as an assistant, even as a coordinator. The head coach makes a million decisions every day that coordinators don’t have to make.

I bet if you polled every coach in college football anonymously about Brent and they have honest answers, there wouldn’t be a single one who would label him a good game day coach. They’d absolutely praise his defense, but his game management? His decision making? His feel for the flow of a game? Even his absolute biggest supporters in the OU media point out the uncanny ability his teams have to shoot themselves in the foot in close games, and how sloppy and undisciplined they are.
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See. You can’t have a legitimate discussion. You can’t even see the difference between grinch and Brent. Again, this behavior is that of a buffoon.
 
mict085 said:
See. You can’t have a legitimate discussion. You can’t even see the difference between grinch and Brent. Again, this behavior is that of a buffoon.
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I’m doing exactly what you did. You just said Brent has a long track record of winning at an elite level. He doesn’t. Bob Stoops did, and Dabo does. Brent wasn’t the coach of those teams. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement that a guy with a .500 career record as a head coach against power conference teams has long history of winning at an elite level, you should be ready to be called out on it.

And you never respond to any of the other points I make about his coaching. Do you think he does a good job with his timeouts and game management? Do you think he has done a good job with our special teams, which routinely hurt us in competitive games? Do you think he has done a good job hiring his offensive staff, and retaining coaches of underperforming position groups? Has it been a sign of good coaching that the number of players OU puts in the NFL has cratered? Was it excellent coaching that he chose Arnold when Gabriel decided that he was returning to college? Is his excellent coaching why we commit so many careless penalties and constantly lose the turnover battle? If you can’t or won’t answer all those, I’ll make it easy: other than defense, what is one tangible thing he has done that has been good?
 
the LSU situation/coaching hire is going to get ugly.
i didn't realize the LSU ad hired jimbo fischer at a&m.
so the lousiana governor is getting involved.
not sure who would want to step into that mess.
 
daqman said:
sure about that? roughly?
how far did we drop?
how far will we drop next week?
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In the NCAA stats, we are sixth in total defense and sixth in scoring defense. In the ESPN defensive efficiency rankings, we are 11th. So pretty much the ‘86 Bears.
 
We built our defensive stats this year feasting on offenses that were anywhere between somewhat above average to bad. I think that's a fair assessment. And we faced an excellent offense on Saturday and it didn't go as well as we would have liked. We gave up 4.95 yards per play against that really good offense. As a comparison, UGA gave up 5.85 yards per play against Ole Miss. But Ole Miss only gained 351 yards on UGA....in part because of limited possessions and UGA having a better offense than we do (keeping Ole Miss' offense off the field). We gave up several explosive plays and although Ole Miss only converted on 43% of 3rd downs, they did convert on 2/3 on 4th down. It was the situational 3rd and 4th downs that kept drives alive and really extended our defense.

Having said that, Tennessee makes a living off of explosive plays. That will be the #1 key on Saturday....limiting the big plays. Tennessee will get several chunk plays because they are really good on offense. But if we are to stay with them and have a chance, our offense has to run the ball somewhat effectively and Mateer has to make the correct decision and throw the damn ball to the correct WR. And then there is the TOs. We have got to find a way to get a couple of TOs. The more I look into the game from a metrics standpoint, the more I like OU to possibly pull this out. But if we make stupid decisions, play undisciplined and are minus in the TO dept., we will lose once again....simple as that.
 
daqman said:
sure about that? roughly?
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Yes, depends on what stat you want.

4th in SP+
4th in EPA.
5th in points allowed
2nd in yards per play
3rd in sacks
9th in stop rate

Somewhere in the top 10 range for most metrics. Used to be #1 in some of these.
 
stormspencer said:
We built our defensive stats this year feasting on offenses that were anywhere between somewhat above average to bad. I think that's a fair assessment. And we faced an excellent offense on Saturday and it didn't go as well as we would have liked. We gave up 4.95 yards per play against that really good offense. As a comparison, UGA gave up 5.85 yards per play against Ole Miss. But Ole Miss only gained 351 yards on UGA....in part because of limited possessions and UGA having a better offense than we do (keeping Ole Miss' offense off the field). We gave up several explosive plays and although Ole Miss only converted on 43% of 3rd downs, they did convert on 2/3 on 4th down. It was the situational 3rd and 4th downs that kept drives alive and really extended our defense.

Having said that, Tennessee makes a living off of explosive plays. That will be the #1 key on Saturday....limiting the big plays. Tennessee will get several chunk plays because they are really good on offense. But if we are to stay with them and have a chance, our offense has to run the ball somewhat effectively and Mateer has to make the correct decision and throw the damn ball to the correct WR. And then there is the TOs. We have got to find a way to get a couple of TOs. The more I look into the game from a metrics standpoint, the more I like OU to possibly pull this out. But if we make stupid decisions, play undisciplined and are minus in the TO dept., we will lose once again....simple as that.
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I agree with this sentiment. I also remember the Texas game which our defense could not generate pressure on the inconsistent Arch Manning and he carved us up in the second half. This defense reminds me of the 1986 / 1987 defenses. I believe those defenses finished #1 in the country, but they feasted on weak opponents. And then we tried covering Michael Irvin and Brian Blades with the likes of Derrick White and Sonny Brown. Rickey Dixon kept us in those games, but there wasn't enough talent on the back end to get stops against passing teams. With this defense, we need to apply consistent QB pressure because the opposing receivers are consistently OPEN. I'm hoping there is a solution, but the CBs playing way off the ball is definitely not it.
 
mict085 said:
See. You can’t have a legitimate discussion. You can’t even see the difference between grinch and Brent. Again, this behavior is that of a buffoon.
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It's perfectly reasonable to not have faith in Brent at this point. I want it to work, and don't see him getting fired this years short of an unexpected collapse, but his tenure has been rough.

But anybody that can't tell the difference between a Grinch defense and this one just isn't right in the head. He had talented pass rushers out the anus and still struggled to put average units out there. Those pass rushers include a guy who DPOY favorite and NFL sack leaders a week or two ago. Thibs did a pretty solid job.
 
Eielson said:
It's perfectly reasonable to not have faith in Brent at this point. I want it to work, and don't see him getting fired this years short of an unexpected collapse, but his tenure has been rough.

But anybody that can't tell the difference between a Grinch defense and this one just isn't right in the head. He had talented pass rushers out the anus and still struggled to put average units out there. Those pass rushers include a guy who DPOY favorite and NFL sack leaders a week or two ago. Thibs did a pretty solid job.
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You’re missing the point. He was saying thay Brent has a long track record of winning at an elite level. In other words, he is giving him credit for wins and losses that were piled up by Stoops and Sweeney. My point is that our debate isn’t whether Brent was/is a good DC. It’s whether he is a good HC, so the only relevant period to assess that is the four years he has spent as the head man. Just like it would be crazy to give Grinch credit for wins that Riley got, it’s crazy to say Brent is winning at an elite level because Stoops and Sweeney won a lot of games. I’m not even remotely suggesting Grinch was as good a DC. I’m saying that Brent’s ability as a DC doesn’t mean he is a good head coach.
 
Eielson said:
It's perfectly reasonable to not have faith in Brent at this point. I want it to work, and don't see him getting fired this years short of an unexpected collapse, but his tenure has been rough.

But anybody that can't tell the difference between a Grinch defense and this one just isn't right in the head. He had talented pass rushers out the anus and still struggled to put average units out there. Those pass rushers include a guy who DPOY favorite and NFL sack leaders a week or two ago. Thibs did a pretty solid job.
Click to expand...

As bad as Grinch was, you basically mentioned the one thing we can't take away from him. He produced the best Sooner OLB in NFL history in Nik Bonitto. It's scary to think that the best NFL OLB the Sooners ever produced is a guy who is only in his 4th year in the League, but I can't think of anyone better. The best LBs OU produced were inside backers - Jerry Tubbs, Wahoo McDaniel, Curtis Lofton.

Sooner04, I would never disparage Sonny Brown :-). That guy gave it his all week in and week out...but asking him to cover Michael Irvin? Ahhhhh!!!
 
WichitaSooner said:
You’re missing the point. He was saying thay Brent has a long track record of winning at an elite level. In other words, he is giving him credit for wins and losses that were piled up by Stoops and Sweeney. My point is that our debate isn’t whether Brent was/is a good DC. It’s whether he is a good HC, so the only relevant period to assess that is the four years he has spent as the head man. Just like it would be crazy to give Grinch credit for wins that Riley got, it’s crazy to say Brent is winning at an elite level because Stoops and Sweeney won a lot of games. I’m not even remotely suggesting Grinch was as good a DC. I’m saying that Brent’s ability as a DC doesn’t mean he is a good head coach.
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You said Brent can’t coach. I said Brent is a dang good coach with a long track record of elite success. You said we needed a good X’s and O’s coach. I said that’s exactly what Brent is. You’re a buffoon.
 
mict085 said:
You said Brent can’t coach. I said Brent is a dang good coach with a long track record of elite success. You said we needed a good X’s and O’s coach. I said that’s exactly what Brent is. You’re a buffoon.
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I’d rather be a buffoon than a downright ass, which is what you appear to be. You can’t refute my points, so you insult my intelligence. I’ve said Brent is a crap head coach, and the only way you even attempt to respond is to point to his success as an assistant. It would be like saying that because someone is a good employee at a company, they are automatically qualified to run the company. Brent has proven himself as a DC. If Brent were our DC, I’d be quite happy. But we have four years now to assess him as a head coach. He’s bad. As someone noted yesterday, there probably isn’t a single decent power conference team that would be interested in hiring him if he were fired today. As for his Xs and Os, he can call/run a defense, no doubt. But I’m not sure he even knows that the offense exists. And watching him try to manage a game is about as fun as a colonoscopy.
 
WaymanFan said:
As bad as Grinch was, you basically mentioned the one thing we can't take away from him. He produced the best Sooner OLB in NFL history in Nik Bonitto. It's scary to think that the best NFL OLB the Sooners ever produced is a guy who is only in his 4th year in the League, but I can't think of anyone better. The best LBs OU produced were inside backers - Jerry Tubbs, Wahoo McDaniel, Curtis Lofton.
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Kenneth Murray is having a pretty solid career himself, as another LB under Grinch (partially). Honestly, as great as Bonitto was, I still think Perkins was the best of the bunch. When people liked to point that our defense got worse after Grinch left, I just rolled my eyes. The talent drop-off was immense. The DTs we have now are better than we've had in a long time, but otherwise Grinch had defenses just as talented if not more than our current one.
 
Eielson said:
Kenneth Murray is having a pretty solid career himself, as another LB under Grinch (partially). Honestly, as great as Bonitto was, I still think Perkins was the best of the bunch. When people liked to point that our defense got worse after Grinch left, I just rolled my eyes. The talent drop-off was immense. The DTs we have now are better than we've had in a long time, but otherwise Grinch had defenses just as talented if not more than our current one.
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I understand what you're getting at. We had some players in 2019-2021 who were talented enough to at least get a serious try at the next level...and then there was a dropoff starting in 2022. Murray was our best pro prospect at LB we've had since Lofton, though saying his NFL career is "solid" is probably generous. He's a fringe starter who will likely be on his 4th team next year since his year in Dallas is not going well. Ronnie Perkins was a guy who looked like he would develop at the next level, though that never happened. N Gallimore also played a season under Grinch. Tre Brown was probably our best corner in the last decade, and he played under Grinch. I singled out Bonitto because he pretty much played entirely under Grinch.
 
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