Forte

[DenverSooner]

I don't understand this Forte conversation. He wouldn't be a starter for us or any other good team. This comparison to Clarke isn't valid. He was the premier shooting guard in the country when we missed on him. Forte, on the other hand, is the premier shooting guard in Stillwater.

Every decent mid major in the country has a guard just like him.

I agree he would not start for OU but I disagree that he would not start for any good team. First, OSU is a far better than average D-I team so I would say they are good. Easily a top 100 if not a top 50 team.

 

[thebigabd]

Despite Cousins size advantage he has shot 30 free throws this season. Forte has 73 free throw attempts this season. This indicates that Cousins either can't handle the ball or isn't as aggressive.

Cousins also has a negative assist to turnover ratio, which again indicates a lack of ball-handling ability.

Sure, Cousins gets 0.35 blocks per game. Although in the grand scheme of things I would argue that Forte having 38 steals and Cousins having 17 has a larger impact on games than a random block here and there.

Cousins is a better rebounder, and that is about the only thing he does better on a basketball court than Phil Forte.

 

[oSuJeff97]

I think that argument goes the exact opposite.. forte is on a bad team.. so he can shoot whenever he wants.. no pressure

A "bad" team? Come on.

We're currently #26 in KenPom's ratings. We're not going to win the Big 12, but we're hardly a "bad" team.

 

[campbest]

Despite Cousins size advantage he has shot 30 free throws this season. Forte has 73 free throw attempts this season. This indicates that Cousins either can't handle the ball or isn't as aggressive.

Cousins also has a negative assist to turnover ratio, which again indicates a lack of ball-handling ability.

Please.

 

[152219]

Despite Cousins size advantage he has shot 30 free throws this season. Forte has 73 free throw attempts this season. This indicates that Cousins either can't handle the ball or isn't as aggressive.

Cousins also has a negative assist to turnover ratio, which again indicates a lack of ball-handling ability.

Sure, Cousins gets 0.35 blocks per game. Although in the grand scheme of things I would argue that Forte having 38 steals and Cousins having 17 has a larger impact on games than a random block here and there.

Cousins is a better rebounder, and that is about the only thing he does better on a basketball court than Phil Forte.

Except look at the Kenpom ratings that HoHum posted.

And Cousins is the better defender and if you cannot see that, I don't know what to tell you. Steal rate is one thing, but Cousins takes the other team's best wing player each and every game and continues to slow them down. He may be the best wing defender in the conference.

 

[BoulderSooner]

Except look at the Kenpom ratings that HoHum posted.

And Cousins is the better defender and if you cannot see that, I don't know what to tell you. Steal rate is one thing, but Cousins takes the other team's best wing player each and every game and continues to slow them down. He may be the best wing defender in the conference.

this .. and not just the conf he is one of the west in the NCAA

 

[skyvue]

Defense can't be measured effectively by stats; steals and blocks don't begin to tell the whole story.

There is no stat for shots not taken by a team's leading scorer because he couldn't get open. There is no stat for shots taken that otherwise wouldn't have gone up because the defender on the play was six or seven inches shorter than the shooter.

 

[oSuJeff97]

Defense can't be measured effectively by stats; steals and blocks don't begin to tell the whole story.

There is no stat for shots not taken by a team's leading scorer because he couldn't get open. There is no stat for shots taken that otherwise wouldn't have gone up because the defender on the play was six or seven inches shorter than the shooter.

Agree with this.

Cousins is clearly a better and more versatile pure defender than Forte because he's bigger and stronger.

But the the meme that Forte is somehow a bad or inadequate defender because he's short (and white) is clearly wrong.

You don't lead the conference and find yourself in the top 10 in the COUNTRY in steals by being a bad or inadequate defender.

 

[BoulderSooner]

forte is a very good player that woudl be in the rotation on almost every team in the country

 

[StatGeek]

I have avoided this thread until now because...who cares about Phil Forte? I cannot believe that people are attempting to argue Forte over Cousins?!?! Forte is a one trick pony and the only reason he (and Smart before him) lead the conference in steals is because Ford allows his players to take unwise defensive gambles all the time. As for free throws, most of Forte's FT attempts are a result of the steals. He steals the ball, drives the floor and gets fouled, it's not like he is fouled driving the lane in the half court. You can't look at stats in a vacuum.

 

[HoHum]

I agree there are a lot of intangibles, particularly on defense, that are hard to quantify with statistics. But, steals and blocks absolutely do begin to tell the story, particularly if they have an extremely high rate in either of them. That doesn't mean you can't be an excellent defender and not get a lot of steals or blocks, but I don't think it's true to say they don't even begin to tell the story.

But, I would say considering OSU is ranked 25th in defensive efficiency according to kenpom, and Forte spends a lot of time on the court, he's leading the league in steals, that he cannot be too much of a liability, given the statistics that are available and that are useful.

Plus, most of the time, Forte draws a relatively weaker offensive player as his defensive assignment. Newberry and Hickey get the better offensive guards/wings.

I think he is getting lumped in with Keiton Page, who absolutely was a defensive liability, and getting painted with the short, white guy brush. Basketball has some very strong stereotypes that are hard to break, in my opinion.

But, besides anecdotal evidence there is no proof Forte is a poor defensive player. I've watched every second of OSU basketball this year in some shape or form, and Forte is consistently a pretty good defender, especially considering his physical limitations. Guys don't just rise and fire over him, like they could with Page and Raymond Penn, because Forte is a much better defender than those two.

 

[bocabull]

OSU has played a pathetic schedule ranked anywhere from 113-156. They have only played 4 games against too 110 teams and are 1-3 in those games.

Kenpom is just some dudes free website with pedestrian arithmetic.

In the ranking that matters and is used by the committee OSU is ranked #53. And for a major conference program that is bad. Like anybody cares there are 300 scrub programs out there when only 35-40 of them are legitimate.

 

[StatGeek]

I agree there are a lot of intangibles, particularly on defense, that are hard to quantify with statistics. But, steals and blocks absolutely do begin to tell the story, particularly if they have an extremely high rate in either of them. That doesn't mean you can't be an excellent defender and not get a lot of steals or blocks, but I don't think it's true to say they don't even begin to tell the story.

But, I would say considering OSU is ranked 25th in defensive efficiency according to kenpom, and Forte spends a lot of time on the court, he's leading the league in steals, that he cannot be too much of a liability, given the statistics that are available and that are useful.

Plus, most of the time, Forte draws a relatively weaker offensive player as his defensive assignment. Newberry and Hickey get the better offensive guards/wings.

I think he is getting lumped in with Keiton Page, who absolutely was a defensive liability, and getting painted with the short, white guy brush. Basketball has some very strong stereotypes that are hard to break, in my opinion.

But, besides anecdotal evidence there is no proof Forte is a poor defensive player. I've watched every second of OSU basketball this year in some shape or form, and Forte is consistently a pretty good defender, especially considering his physical limitations. Guys don't just rise and fire over him, like they could with Page and Raymond Penn, because Forte is a much better defender than those two.

In return OU is ranked in the top 5 in defense, and Cousins is widely regarded as our best defender, I think the usage of the two players on the defensive end by their respective coaches shows that defensively this is a large mismatch.

 

[152219]

I agree there are a lot of intangibles, particularly on defense, that are hard to quantify with statistics. But, steals and blocks absolutely do begin to tell the story, particularly if they have an extremely high rate in either of them. That doesn't mean you can't be an excellent defender and not get a lot of steals or blocks, but I don't think it's true to say they don't even begin to tell the story.

But, I would say considering OSU is ranked 25th in defensive efficiency according to kenpom, and Forte spends a lot of time on the court, he's leading the league in steals, that he cannot be too much of a liability, given the statistics that are available and that are useful.

Plus, most of the time, Forte draws a relatively weaker offensive player as his defensive assignment. Newberry and Hickey get the better offensive guards/wings.

I think he is getting lumped in with Keiton Page, who absolutely was a defensive liability, and getting painted with the short, white guy brush. Basketball has some very strong stereotypes that are hard to break, in my opinion.

But, besides anecdotal evidence there is no proof Forte is a poor defensive player. I've watched every second of OSU basketball this year in some shape or form, and Forte is consistently a pretty good defender, especially considering his physical limitations. Guys don't just rise and fire over him, like they could with Page and Raymond Penn, because Forte is a much better defender than those two.

So, Forte gets the weak link on the other team to guard, which is in stark contrast to Cousins. OU's defensive rating according to Kenpom is clearly superior to OSU's. It should also be pointed out that the offenses OU has faced rate 27th in the nation according to Kenpom whereas OSU's rate 259th. I know his overall defensive ratings take that into consideration when calculating the ratings, but raw stats like steals, blocked shots, and defensive rebounds for an individual player can be skewed because of the inferior competition. That also doesn't take into account that Ford's system allows for free wheeling on the defensive end in regards to going for steals. Nothing wrong with that if you have strong defenders on the back end who will cover for a player when he attempts a steal and misses.

 

[HoHum]

You guys are putting other people's arguments in my mouth. I'm not comparing Forte to Cousins defensively, I'm arguing that Forte is not a weak defender.

 

[DenverSooner]

This is very useful data.

For this OSU team to be a top 15 squad, they need better players...which means less Forte. No different than the Cade Davis argument here a couple years ago, only reason Cade put up some numbers is because he was playing 32 minutes a game.

I just don't get comments like this. I would be fine with Cade Davis or Forte on my team. They might not be the best players in the NCAA but they work hard and are certainly above average even for the major conferences.

I wish i lacked skills like either of those guys.

 

[152219]

OSU has played a pathetic schedule ranked anywhere from 113-156. They have only played 4 games against too 110 teams and are 1-3 in those games.

Kenpom is just some dudes free website with pedestrian arithmetic.

In the ranking that matters and is used by the committee OSU is ranked #53. And for a major conference program that is bad. Like anybody cares there are 300 scrub programs out there when only 35-40 of them are legitimate.

From what I've read, the committee has started to use more than just RPI (speaking of pedestrian arithmetic).

 

[bocabull]

From what I've read, the committee has started to use more than just RPI (speaking of pedestrian arithmetic).

HA good one. You certainly got me there. But here's the thing. The pedestrian arithmetic used in the RPI is heavily weighted to the most important data set. When there are 300 teams with massive standard deviation in talent, who you beat and lost to is the holy grail. Not only what your opponents record, who did they beat to accumulate their record.

It weeds out the pretenders.

 

[HoHum]

Kenpom is not only not free (if you want to access more than the main page), but it is a pretty impressive algorithm. No, it might not be used for NCAA seeding purposes, but for the point of my argument (Forte being at least an average defensive guard) NCAA seeding is absolutely inconsequential.

I would guess that kenpom is the most complicated, and most accurate, college basketball ranking system available to the public. I love it, and it is certainly worth the $19.99 a year to have all of that information available to you.

 

[152219]

HA good one. You certainly got me there. But here's the thing. The pedestrian arithmetic used in the RPI is heavily weighted to the most important data set. When there are 300 teams with massive standard deviation in talent, who you beat and lost to is the holy grail. Not only what your opponents record, who did they beat to accumulate their record.

It weeds out the pretenders.

Do you really think KU is the #1/2 team in the nation currently?

Because they are either #1 or #2 in the country according to RPI (depends on who is calculating RPI).

FWIW, Kenpom and Sagarin have KU rated 15th and 14th, respectively.