Is there an expectation on Capel to recruit MCDAA's now?

[Sid]

As long as Capel keeps recruiting at this high level the MCDAA will come.

Absolutely! Kids want to play for a coach who will prepare them for the NBA. As long as Jeff is at OU, he will always get his share of talented players.

 

[skyvue]

Drew helped lead his team to the sweet 16 and was all conference, Humphrey was all conference and and got drafted, Deangelo was first team All Atlantic 10 two years in a row, and Lawrence McKenzie was Third team All Big 10 and honorable Mention All big 10 averaging 12 and 14pts in two years. Those guys went on to be productive. You're right, they could have done that at OU, but how did we get to the point where we couldn't keep our best players from transfering to other schools? Not a swipe at Sampson, but something that was frustrating to me. Humphrey is the equivalent of Willie Warren deciding to transfer.

Well, friend, it comes off as a swipe at Sampson, whether that's how you intend it or not. But I don't even care about that so much as I do you -- and all those who continue to post this nonsense about players leaving OU and thriving elsewhere -- putting out misleading, if not downright false, info.

For example, Lavender was only second-team all-conference at Xavier and, as was pointed out above, his personal troubles continued there. As for thriving on the court, let's examine the stats.

2004 -- 3.9 assists, 1.7 steals, 2.6 turnovers, and 11.3 points per game
2005 -- 3.2 assists, 1.6 steals, 2 turnovers, and 9.7 points per game

After a year sitting out (and, one assumes, maturing both physically and mentally), here's the huge leap Drew made in his junior and senior seasons:

2007 -- 4.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.7 turnovers, and 11.2 points per game
2008 -- 4.5 assists, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 10.8

So Drew improved by about an assist per game at Xavier (might not one expect that of someone in his junior and senior seasons?) and he cut down on his turnovers slightly, but he made fewer steals there. And he averaged exactly the same number of points per game over his two years at Xavier as an upper classman as he did at OU as a lower classman. And he still managed to get his off-court butt arrested again.

Perhaps we have different definitions of "thrive."

Let's look at MacKenzie. He went to a program with decidedly less talent than OU and he got more minutes there, but then he was a year older and more physically mature when he was eligible to play at Minnesota.

He was, in short, an upper classman. They tend to get more minutes and, yes, to play better.

2004 -- 1.2 assists, .7 steals, 1.4 turnovers, and 8.2 points per game
2005 -- 1.2 assists, 1 steal, 1.3 turnovers, and 9.5 points per game
After a year sitting out at UM...
2007 -- 2.8 assists, .5 steals, 3.1 turnovers, and 14.9 points per game
2008 -- 2.6 assists, .9 steals, 2.2 turnovers, and 11.8 points per game

His assists improved a bit, but not that much considering he was playing point at least some of the time. His steals remained level. His turnovers increased (probably attritbutable to playing point and increased minutes). His points increased more dramatically, but more importantly, so did his minutes, which tells the real story.

Over the four years of his college career, LMac averaged .38 points per minute as a freshman, .43 points per minute as a sophomore, .43 ppm as a junior, and .44 ppm as a senior.

So really all that changed was his minutes. He averaged 30.6 minutes per game at UM, compared to 21.9 minutes per game at OU. He didn't become more dangerous, offensively; he just got more minutes, and He'd have very likely gotten more minutes at OU, too.

So, again, saying he "fizzled" at OU and "thrived" at UM doesn't begin to get it right. He was a freshman and a sophomore at OU, and a junior and a senior at UM -- there's the difference. I feel reasonably confident LMac could have managed a third-team All-Big 12 honor had he stuck around as an upper classman.

So how about Alexander?

Here's his four-year breakdown

2004 -- .9 assists, .5 steals, .9 turnovers, and 7.1 points per game
2005 -- 1.3 assists, .7 steal, 1.2 turnovers, and 9.6 points per game
After a year sitting out at UNCC...
2007 -- 1.8 assists, 1.1 steals, 1.6 turnovers, and 17 points per game
2008 -- 1.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 2 turnovers, and 17.6 points per game

So his assists improved by a bit, he managed more steals, his turnovers rose only slightly, and his scoring virtually doubled. One might well say Alexander thrived at Charlotte.

But then one might expect a player with star potential in the Big 12 to thrive at UNCC -- the level of competition, game in and game out, is lower.

But the most important factor is that his minutes increased by 34%, from 1,435 as an lower classman at OU to 2,160 as an upper classman at Charlotte. Had De'Angelo averaged as many minutes at OU as he did at UNCC, he'd have average 12.3 points per game as a Sooner.

But I'll admit that Alexander is the best support for your argument -- his points per minute went up at UNCC, too. As a freshman, he averaged .35 points per minute; as a sophomore, he averaged .39 ppm; as a junior, he averaged .49 ppm, and as a senior, he averaged .5 ppm. He also won some impressive conference honors, but they were, undeniably, in a lesser conference.

I still say he'd have achieved similar growth as an upper classman at OU, but who knows? I would guess the greatest factor in his improvement was that he got away from the undesirables he was hanging around with while at OU (this was widely circulated as the reason for his departure, academic problems and his mom's desire for him to find a new crowd of friends).

Now, Ryan Humphrey, who has deflated the notion that he thrived at ND by saying he should have stayed at OU:

2004 -- 6.5 rebounds, .8 steals, 1.8 turnovers, and 9.2 points per game
2005 -- 7.5 rebounds, .8 steals, 2 turnovers, and 11.1 points per game
After a year sitting out at ND...
2007 -- 9 rebounds, .7 steals, 2.6 turnovers, and 14.1 points per game
2008 -- 10.9 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 2.5 turnovers, and 18.9 points per game

Humphrey showed improvement at ND, but the biggest jump, in his senior season, came because of a significant increase in minutes -- nearly six per game -- over his junior year. His points-per-minutes totals -- .39, .41, .48, .53 -- rose by only a bit each year. And as he himself has said, he could have made those same improvements by working harder at OU.

Sometimes a change of scenery benefits a player, and perhaps each of the above four players are examples of that. But the posters who float this revisionist history year after year always want to pin the "blame" on Coach Sampson. It's never that the player had a bad attitude or needed a year on the bench to get himself together. It's always that a) Sampson ran them off and b) they went on to be all-world at their new school.

It's nonsense, and it's beyond tiresome -- as, I'm sure, my responses are getting. I'd love to stop posting them, believe me. But as long as the revisionist history keeps getting posted here, I'll keep posting the facts.

 

[boksooner]

Can you please re-post that in the form of a Haiku? I lost interest about half-way through.

 

[Sam]

Skyvue not happy
defends Kelvin Sampson's name
stats are provided

 

[brettromar]

It's fun to blame Kevlin because he is such a dick head.

Good coach, just big butthead.

 

[boksooner]

Skyvue not happy
defends Kelvin Sampson's name
stats are provided

thank you for this useful post

 

[Cheno]

Can you please re-post that in the form of a Haiku? I lost interest about half-way through.

:clap

 

[NMSooner'80]

Sometimes a change of scenery benefits a player, and perhaps each of the above four players are examples of that. But the posters who float this revisionist history year after year always want to pin the "blame" on Coach Sampson. It's never that the player had a bad attitude or needed a year on the bench to get himself together. It's always that a) Sampson ran them off and b) they went on to be all-world at their new school.

It's nonsense, and it's beyond tiresome -- as, I'm sure, my responses are getting. I'd love to stop posting them, believe me. But as long as the revisionist history keeps getting posted here, I'll keep posting the facts.

People seem to be confusing these posts as "defending Kelvin," when I think the reality is that some of us just get sick of revisionist history no matter who it's about. Would you "haters" be okay with people posting false numbers on who leads the all-time series with teams like OSU and Texas? I doubt it.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

People seem to be confusing these posts as "defending Kelvin," when I think the reality is that some of us just get sick of revisionist history no matter who it's about. Would you "haters" be okay with people posting false numbers on who leads the all-time series with teams like OSU and Texas? I doubt it.

:clap

 

[BigTime]

This post sure turned ugly in a hurry.

I certainly don't expect Coach Capel to land a McDAA in every class, but I would not be at all surprised if he continues to do so during recruiting years where he has plenty of scholarships to offer.

Clark, Pressey, McCallum, and Cothrun all have a great shot to make it this year.

 

[NMSooner'80]

Just to clarify my post from this morning, I was trying to point out that I agree with Skyvue on how irritating "revisionist" history is. I'm just a stickler when it comes to reading thing that I know aren't true, no matter the source (or the subject). I always thought the history of some of those guys, most notably Alexander and Humphrey, was pretty well-documented on why they left, but I guess if you hate the coach who recruited them that much, you're not going to care.

To me, it's just like reading posts "borrowed" from OSU boards where they go on and on about how they're really better at hoops than OU has been. And if someone went after the Tubbs legacy with false logic, I'd be offended at that, too.

 

[Flintheart Glomgold]

Not from a talent standpoint, but from the standpoint of being OU's best returning player.

najera

and we went to the final four without a burger boy. it can be done if the right players fit your scheme. burger boys are a luxury, not a necessity.

 

[DenverSooner]

Drew helped lead his team to the sweet 16 and was all conference, Humphrey was all conference and and got drafted, Deangelo was first team All Atlantic 10 two years in a row, and Lawrence McKenzie was Third team All Big 10 and honorable Mention All big 10 averaging 12 and 14pts in two years. Those guys went on to be productive. You're right, they could have done that at OU, but how did we get to the point where we couldn't keep our best players from transfering to other schools? Not a swipe at Sampson, but something that was frustrating to me. Humphrey is the equivalent of Willie Warren deciding to transfer.

Lmac put up nice numbers at OU and would have put up good numbers his junior and senior years. Drew put up quite impressive numbers at OU and would have been all conference type player his junior and senior year. Both guys were a bit homesick and had some off court issues. Do you honestly believe Sampson somehow kept two guards from developing? His work in the past with guys like Heskett, Brewer, Erdman, Nolan Johnson, Hollis Price, Minor (lets be honest Minor didn't do much at OU until Sampson turned around the poor job Tubbs was doing with Minor - I think that is how the story goes for the Sampson haters - alternatively we could assume Ryan had two good coaches and was a sophomore and freshman with Tubbs and an upperclassman with Sampson).

Alexander cheated on his class work, do you seriously blame coach Sampson for that?

Humphrey transferring was dissappointing but he did not do anything special at Notre Dame. Hated to see the guy go, don't really know why it happened but I don't see much reason to argue Sampson somehow held the guy back. Sampson obviously did not hold back Abercrombie, Najerra or Minor (I am asuming Humphrey wanted to score like those guys).

 

[DenverSooner]

najera

and we went to the final four without a burger boy. it can be done if the right players fit your scheme. burger boys are a luxury, not a necessity.

Didn't OU go to the final four twice without McD AA?

 

[DenverSooner]

It's fun to blame Kevlin because he is such a dick head.

Good coach, just big butthead.

Exactly what was your experience with the man to say this? Was Switzer a dick head? How about Bud? What about Tubbs?

You appear relatively knew to the board so I am wondering how old you are? It would truly fascinate to see a person in their early 20s claim to know much, if anything at all, about Coach Sampson.

The real fact of the matter about recruiting at OU is that it substantially stepped up after OU built the new facilities. We can all pretend it didn't. But it did. If you go back and look at the classes you will see classes that included multiple Top 100 high school players immediately following those improvements to the infrastructure. Bookout, Alexander, and others. Then I think OU had McKensie, Foust, Lavendar, Turner and Tobias (all Top 100 but Tobias and he had grade issues so was somewhat overlooked by ranking services). After that OU landed Everett, Taj Gray and Godbolt (Everett and Gray were both Juco AA, Longar was top 100). After that OU had a below average year (AJ, Michael Neal ??) but then landed Reynolds, James, Clark, Crocker and Mayden (5 Top 100 guys, 1 McD AA)

Capel then had a below average class but landed Griffin the next year, then got a better class with Willie and an even better class this year. Coach Capel has done a great job but he is not really recruting substantially better than Coach Sampson did after the facilities were improved.

As to the original question, I expect Capel to land most McD AA in Oklahoma and steal some from Texas. If we grab a few others great. I just hope he can continue to land mostly Top 100 recruits and Juco AA. If that happens OU will be fine.

 

[Cheno]

I could give a rat's butt about Kelvin anymore. He cheated. He's gone. Like DeAngelo Alexander cheated.
This thread is about Coach Capel and he's doing a job recruiting that has never been duplicated at OU. It's unbelievable what he's doing and I can't imagine anyone he would have taken the OU program so far, so fast from where he inherited it.

 

[Sid]

I could give a rat's butt about Kelvin anymore. He cheated. He's gone. Like DeAngelo Alexander cheated. This thread is about Coach Capel and he's doing a job recruiting that has never been duplicated at OU. It's unbelievable what he's doing and I can't imagine anyone he would have taken the OU program so far, so fast from where he inherited it.

If it wasn't for the facilities at OU, Jeff would be a MEDIOCRE recruiter at best. He gets credit for landing Blake but we all knew BG was coming to OU because of his brother. Jeff got LUCKY when he landed Willie. TMG and Tiny fell into his lap. 5-6 accomplished things in recruiting that will NEVER be duplicated again at Oklahoma.


95-96-97-98-2001-2004-2006

 

[Cheno]

If it wasn't for the facilities at OU, Jeff would be a MEDIOCRE recruiter at best. He gets credit for landing Blake but we all knew BG was coming to OU because of his brother. Jeff got LUCKY when he landed Willie. TMG and Tiny fell into his lap. 5-6 accomplished things in recruiting that will NEVER be duplicated again at Oklahoma.


95-96-97-98-2001-2004-2006

I take it you are being facetious?

 

[Seymore Cox]

Lmac put up nice numbers at OU and would have put up good numbers his junior and senior years. Drew put up quite impressive numbers at OU and would have been all conference type player his junior and senior year. Both guys were a bit homesick and had some off court issues. Do you honestly believe Sampson somehow kept two guards from developing? His work in the past with guys like Heskett, Brewer, Erdman, Nolan Johnson, Hollis Price, Minor (lets be honest Minor didn't do much at OU until Sampson turned around the poor job Tubbs was doing with Minor - I think that is how the story goes for the Sampson haters - alternatively we could assume Ryan had two good coaches and was a sophomore and freshman with Tubbs and an upperclassman with Sampson).

Alexander cheated on his class work, do you seriously blame coach Sampson for that?

Humphrey transferring was dissappointing but he did not do anything special at Notre Dame. Hated to see the guy go, don't really know why it happened but I don't see much reason to argue Sampson somehow held the guy back. Sampson obviously did not hold back Abercrombie, Najerra or Minor (I am asuming Humphrey wanted to score like those guys).

In every case their was a situation that caused those transfers and I understand that. But does some of the responsibility fall on the coach to hold that together. Those guys weren't bad apples. Bad apples you send down the road. As far as Humphrey not doing anything special, Averaging 18pts and 10rbs a game, being All conference and getting drafted 19th in the NBA draft isn't my definition of not doing anything special. I get all of your points though, and regret that I turned this into something that was meant to be a compliment to Capel as a slap on Sampson.

 

[BigTime]

najera

and we went to the final four without a burger boy. it can be done if the right players fit your scheme. burger boys are a luxury, not a necessity.

You bring up a good point. MSU didn't have any MCDAAs on this year's squad and they made a FF. However, your chances of making the FF go up dramatically if you have at least two MCDAAs on your squad. We will have three next year and most likely have at least two for the next two years. It really gives us a great chance to challenge for FFs.

I also like the fact that so many McDAAs get drafted (or at least make an NBA roster as a UDFA). It is going to be great for future recruiting and building excitement w/in the fanbase to see guys like Blake, Willie, and Tiny make it to the NBA. It is just not the same when our guys do well in Europe (like Hollis and Ebi because we never hear about them and neither do future recruits).