JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

[CoachTalk]

Dead serious. By the way, Sampson is on record saying the exact same thing. Feel free to think Kelvin Sampsons opinion is ridiculous too.

OU can win consistently without Any JUCO's. ANY...

 

[thebigabd]

OU can win consistently without Any JUCO's. ANY...

Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?

 

[CoachTalk]

Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?

Yeah Im ok with that.

Which JUCO's are next years cant misses?

 

[oudna]

Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?

Yeah. A quarter of a century ago the JUCO model worked well!

 

[thebigabd]

Yeah Im ok with that.

Which JUCO's are next years cant misses?

Don't know. I am not a D1 head coach with recruiting connections that gets paid to go evaluate talent and watch these guys play.

Last year it ended up being Mason Jones and Devonte Bandoo... They went to Arkansas and Baylor. Mason Jones was in Oklahoma and apparently Kruger didn't even know he existed.

There are some players in mind like Taz Sherman, going to WVU, and a couple of others in the area that seemed legit that could help you win next year went un-offered.

 

[sperry]

Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?

When did Kelvin say that? 15 years ago.


The 4 guys you cited in your original post featured 1 one solid but not spectacular player (Bandoo), and three flat out bums. OU signing any of them except Bandoo would have been a disaster. That's a 25% hit rate for the guys you identified as the best in JUCO. That's why relying on JUCOs is a laughably bad "strategy"

 

[oudna]

Don't know. I am not a D1 head coach

Logs out...

 

[thebigabd]

When did Kelvin say that? 15 years ago.


The 4 guys you cited in your original post featured 1 one solid but not spectacular player (Bandoo), and three flat out bums. OU signing any of them except Bandoo would have been a disaster. That's a 25% hit rate for the guys you identified as the best in JUCO. That's why relying on JUCOs is a laughably bad "strategy"

So we are going to ignore the guys from the area who did well and only stick to guys that an internet forum poster thought would be good based on offers, stats, etc?

 

[CoachTalk]

Don't know. I am not a D1 head coach with recruiting connections that gets paid to go evaluate talent and watch these guys play.

Last year it ended up being Mason Jones and Devonte Bandoo... They went to Arkansas and Baylor. Mason Jones was in Oklahoma and apparently Kruger didn't even know he existed.

There are some players in mind like Taz Sherman, going to WVU, and a couple of others in the area that seemed legit that could help you win next year went un-offered.

How do you know this?

 

[CMSOONER]

I think we have to find some middle ground here. I appreciate the JUCO information that ABD brings to the board. I personally am not keeping up with any JUCO players unless something draws my attention to them. A lot times its something ABD has posted here. Do I agree that winning consistently at OU hinges on JUCO recruiting...no. Do I think we should abandon JUCO recruiting...no. JUCO just isn't what it used to be. Can you find players that can fill a need and be solid team contributors? Yes. Should OU be bringing in multiple JUCO players a year....absolutley not! (Barring some ridiculous scenario).

There are a lot of crazy high expectations for Alondes Williams next year, some that he might be a starter. The reality of a JUCO guard coming in and starting for this team paints a sad picture of the talent on the roster. A picture I believe to be false, as I think we have some really good talent. If he comes in and sets the world on fire....FANTASTIC! Win for the staff and the team. If he comes in and is a solid bench contributor... that's still a win! I like Williams, but will be better that JB, Harmon, Reaves, Hill?

JUCO is a stopgap to identify a "potential" talent that could address a 1-2 year more immediate need. Identifying a player who is or might be better than a late recruiting high school kid you might be able to bring in.

I think we need to stop building up such high expectations of these JUCO kids. I also think we need to realize there are JUCO kids out there who can help OU from time to time. JUCO to me is like the NBA G League. Some kids can look like stars but just not be major conference caliber players. That doesn't diminish their JUCO accomplishments. Sometimes you just don't know if a kids game can translate from JUCO to D1 until it does or doesn't happen. It's not their fault we sometimes set unattainable goals for them as players.

 

[thebigabd]

CMSooner,

Thats a healthy post. I am going to ponder on it and respond to some of your points, but I like it.

 

[WaymanFan]

I'm with CMSooner on finding middle ground. JUCO talent is obviously nowhere near what it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. To say we can't compete at a high level without JUCO talent seems farfetched. That said, Billy Tubbs started a tradition that Kelvin Sampson piggy-backed off - and we should have never gotten away from it completely. OU was once a "JUCO blue blood" and should be at least a consideration of any top-tier JUCO player. 30 years ago, when even the true Blue Blood programs wanted Larry Johnson from JUCO, I remember the direct quote from his coach. "It's Oklahoma or UNLV. Everyone else is wasting their time."

Since we always have one or two JUCO players on our team in a given year, anyway, we may as well try to get the best ones. The selling point? How about no college has had more JUCO players drafted into the NBA than Oklahoma (with the possible exception of UNLV).

 

[WTSooner]

I think we need to stop building up such high expectations of these JUCO kids.

I think we need to start finding (and recruiting) the JUCO kids that can live up to those expectations. They are out there. They are in this part of the country. Other schools are getting them and having success with them.

So far, Lon hasn't picked the right ones, or hasn't found out how to integrate them into the system effectively.

 

[skyvue]

Other schools are getting them and having success with them.

There are more failures than successes. Let's not pretend it's an exact science. One need only look at the players abd has touted to see that.

 

[thebigabd]

I wouldn't say expectations for them are high... even mine. As weird as that probably sounds.

Allow me to explain my position... if you agree, great. If you don't, fine.

I still openly support the recruitment of Jamal Bienemy, Brady Manek, Kristian Doolittle, etc... I would just add pieces between the best HS players I can get with junior college players instead. On my staff would be a full-time junior college recruiter, who would know the juco coaches, leagues, and players inside and out. If the juco guy is a premier piece, great, if its a role player, I think its even better its a juco player.

There are a few benefits to this... You only commit to role players for 2 years instead of 4... Your team gets older guys, bringing in 20/21 year olds instead of 18/19 year olds. There is a difference.

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get. Especially if you position your program as the #1 destination for juco talent. Don't act like thats impossible either, we've already done that in the past.

If you think those days are gone.... Sampsons best player on a 30 win team this year was from San Jacinto JC in Texas. Before that he had the American player of the year in Rob Gray from a JC in Texas.

Look at what Bob Huggins has done with juco talent in the past few years:

Tarik Phillip - Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Got him from Independence CC in Kansas.
Jon Holton - Averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds per game
Jaysean Paige - Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Jermaine Hailey - Came in from a Odessa CC in Texas and averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 assists per game in his last 10 games last year. Will see how he does next year, but he looks like a very promising player.

So Bob Huggins can fly into Kansas and Texas and magically pick good junior college talent but OU can't? He's had other good juco players too, these are just a few examples from the past couple of years.

He isn't some crap program either... Prior to this years down-year where they had to kick multiple starters off the team and lost their best player to injury, they had finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in the Big 12 the 4 years prior to that.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

The defense of this is continually "how do you know he didn't recruit Mason Jones".... "How do you know they didn't even know about Haley?".... "How do we know Bandoo even wanted to come to OU"....

This is all just hogwash... First of all, offers are pretty openly reported. If OU offers someone its on like 5 different websites and twitter... So that is one thing... The other, OU just really isn't offering many of these guys. Just letting them go to Baylor, WVU, Houston, etc without an offer.

Second... the fact that these guys are going to Arkansas (who has had 3-4 SEC juco transfers just in the past few years), Baylor, TCU, WVU, and around the country without any OU offers tells me we have completely surrendered junior college recruiting to others and only dip into it at the 11th hour in desperation. However, we did sign Kuath and Williams and, I suspect fans will be happy with them next year.

Lastly.... my perfect recruiting class has my signing the best high school kids I can, while having a specific junior college recruiter identifying all the players who can help the team immediately win the next year. Shooters, slashers, rebounders, depth, etc... Immediate impact guys who fill the gaps in your roster. If that means 2-3 jucos per year, fine, so be it.

Hope that clarifies the position.

 

[AdaSooner]

I think we have to find some middle ground here. I appreciate the JUCO information that ABD brings to the board. I personally am not keeping up with any JUCO players unless something draws my attention to them. A lot times its something ABD has posted here. Do I agree that winning consistently at OU hinges on JUCO recruiting...no. Do I think we should abandon JUCO recruiting...no. JUCO just isn't what it used to be. Can you find players that can fill a need and be solid team contributors? Yes. Should OU be bringing in multiple JUCO players a year....absolutley not! (Barring some ridiculous scenario).

There are a lot of crazy high expectations for Alondes Williams next year, some that he might be a starter. The reality of a JUCO guard coming in and starting for this team paints a sad picture of the talent on the roster. A picture I believe to be false, as I think we have some really good talent. If he comes in and sets the world on fire....FANTASTIC! Win for the staff and the team. If he comes in and is a solid bench contributor... that's still a win! I like Williams, but will be better that JB, Harmon, Reaves, Hill?

JUCO is a stopgap to identify a "potential" talent that could address a 1-2 year more immediate need. Identifying a player who is or might be better than a late recruiting high school kid you might be able to bring in.

I think we need to stop building up such high expectations of these JUCO kids. I also think we need to realize there are JUCO kids out there who can help OU from time to time. JUCO to me is like the NBA G League. Some kids can look like stars but just not be major conference caliber players. That doesn't diminish their JUCO accomplishments. Sometimes you just don't know if a kids game can translate from JUCO to D1 until it does or doesn't happen. It's not their fault we sometimes set unattainable goals for them as players.

Nice post, CMSOONER! I have always been a proponent of signing juco players to fill specific needs. I realize a lot has changed since Billy and Kelvin were able to build a team around juco transfers, but there are still good recruits out there if coaches make the effort to identify and sign them. Our coaching staff did just that with Alondes Williams, a player I really like in our 2019 class. To me, that’s an encouraging step in the right direction.

 

[WTSooner]

There are more failures than successes. Let's not pretend it's an exact science. One need only look at the players abd has touted to see that.

abd isn't a college coach with a recruiting budget and access to hours of video on these kids either. I get your point, but recruiting of any kid, JUCO or HS, is a hit and miss proposition. That shouldn't steer us away from JUCO kids.

 

[Maverick008]

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get.

This is PURE speculation. Just like I can say IF they came to OU they both tripped and fell and had season ending injuries. Neither of us know if any of that is true. We also don’t know and aren’t privvy to the actual under workings of their recruitment. If they are so easy to come by, why didn’t “better” schools than Baylor and Arkansas sign these guys??

Jaysean Paige- Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas

Moberly CC is in Missouri not Kansas point still stands just wanted to clear that up.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

Jury is still out on the guys he signed for next year as they could shoot less than 10% from 3/and or be busts like some of the others.

I’ve said it before but as someone else pointed out in this thread, it’s not like Kruger hasn’t or doesn’t recruit JUCOs but more like he hasn’t had great luck with the ones he has signed. YES a lot of that is on him and his staff but if you go back and look at some of the stats for some of those guys, they looked pretty good on paper. Does he need to hit on someone like the JUCO for next year’s class? Sure, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t/aren’t recruiting JUCOs at all.

 

[WichitaSooner]

I wouldn't say expectations for them are high... even mine. As weird as that probably sounds.

Allow me to explain my position... if you agree, great. If you don't, fine.

I still openly support the recruitment of Jamal Bienemy, Brady Manek, Kristian Doolittle, etc... I would just add pieces between the best HS players I can get with junior college players instead. On my staff would be a full-time junior college recruiter, who would know the juco coaches, leagues, and players inside and out. If the juco guy is a premier piece, great, if its a role player, I think its even better its a juco player.

There are a few benefits to this... You only commit to role players for 2 years instead of 4... Your team gets older guys, bringing in 20/21 year olds instead of 18/19 year olds. There is a difference.

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get. Especially if you position your program as the #1 destination for juco talent. Don't act like thats impossible either, we've already done that in the past.

If you think those days are gone.... Sampsons best player on a 30 win team this year was from San Jacinto JC in Texas. Before that he had the American player of the year in Rob Gray from a JC in Texas.

Look at what Bob Huggins has done with juco talent in the past few years:

Tarik Phillip - Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Got him from Independence CC in Kansas.
Jon Holton - Averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds per game
Jaysean Paige - Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Jermaine Hailey - Came in from a Odessa CC in Texas and averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 assists per game in his last 10 games last year. Will see how he does next year, but he looks like a very promising player.

So Bob Huggins can fly into Kansas and Texas and magically pick good junior college talent but OU can't? He's had other good juco players too, these are just a few examples from the past couple of years.

He isn't some crap program either... Prior to this years down-year where they had to kick multiple starters off the team and lost their best player to injury, they had finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in the Big 12 the 4 years prior to that.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

The defense of this is continually "how do you know he didn't recruit Mason Jones".... "How do you know they didn't even know about Haley?".... "How do we know Bandoo even wanted to come to OU"....

This is all just hogwash... First of all, offers are pretty openly reported. If OU offers someone its on like 5 different websites and twitter... So that is one thing... The other, OU just really isn't offering many of these guys. Just letting them go to Baylor, WVU, Houston, etc without an offer.

Second... the fact that these guys are going to Arkansas (who has had 3-4 SEC juco transfers just in the past few years), Baylor, TCU, WVU, and around the country without any OU offers tells me we have completely surrendered junior college recruiting to others and only dip into it at the 11th hour in desperation. However, we did sign Kuath and Williams and, I suspect fans will be happy with them next year.

Lastly.... my perfect recruiting class has my signing the best high school kids I can, while having a specific junior college recruiter identifying all the players who can help the team immediately win the next year. Shooters, slashers, rebounders, depth, etc... Immediate impact guys who fill the gaps in your roster. If that means 2-3 jucos per year, fine, so be it.

Hope that clarifies the position.

I think the main problem I have with this is that you still significantly inflate the value that even the JUCO success stories possess. There is simply no way that Jones and Bandoo would have yielded us five or six extra wins. No chance. Every analytics expert on the planet would tell you how few players in the country are worth three wins, and those guys certainly don't fall in that very small group. But you keep saying it as if it is fact, like they are the college basketball WAR equivalents of Mike Trout. And of course, to add those two to our team would have meant removing two guys -- likely Calixte and Reynolds, both of whom were valuable (in some games, very valuable) during the nonconference season. So basically, Jones and Bandoo would have won us three or four extra Big 12 games each?!? Again, no chance.

 

[WTSooner]

I’ve said it before but as someone else pointed out in this thread, it’s not like Kruger hasn’t or doesn’t recruit JUCOs but more like he hasn’t had great luck with the ones he has signed. YES a lot of that is on him and his staff but if you go back and look at some of the stats for some of those guys, they looked pretty good on paper. Does he need to hit on someone like the JUCO for next year’s class? Sure, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t/aren’t recruiting JUCOs at all.

I'm making this comment a bit off the cuff, but it seems to me that Kruger has gone after a lot of JUCO's just to have a warm body, or potentially an option of the bench. I'd like to see him go after more guys that might be good starter-level kids at OU. More kids like Williams this year.