JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

[thebigabd]

I think the main problem I have with this is that you still significantly inflate the value that even the JUCO success stories possess. There is simply no way that Jones and Bandoo would have yielded us five or six extra wins. No chance. Every analytics expert on the planet would tell you how few players in the country are worth three wins, and those guys certainly don't fall in that very small group.

This is PURE speculation. Just like I can say IF they came to OU they both tripped and fell and had season ending injuries. Neither of us know if any of that is true. We also don’t know and aren’t privvy to the actual under workings of their recruitment. If they are so easy to come by, why didn’t “better” schools than Baylor and Arkansas sign these guys??

Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

Mason Jones (6'5'' 210)
Played in all 34 games and started 26 … For the season, was second on the team in rebounding (3.9), assists (96) and steals (31) while ranking third in scoring (13.6) … Ranked sixth in SEC in 3-pointers made (76 total, ninth in free throw percentage (.804)and 10th in free throws made (115) … Came off the bench in the last eight games of the year to provide more balance … In those eight games, shot 46.5 percent (20-of-43) from 3-point range while handing out 20 assists … Reached double figures in scoring 20 times … Led the team in scoring 10 times.

Devonte Bandoo (6'3'' 185)
Averaged 10 ppg in Big 12 play, ranking 4th in the Big 12 in 3pt percentage at 44%... Shot 89% from the foul line.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

I mean, this is just ridiculous.

 

[Eielson]

Tubbs and Sampson were great with JUCOs. Capel and Kruger have sucked with them, and the same goes for international players. Lon should stick to what he does best...and regardless of the tradition that Tubbs and Sampson set, it ain't JUCOs (or international players).

 

[Eielson]

Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

Mason Jones (6'5'' 210)
Played in all 34 games and started 26 … For the season, was second on the team in rebounding (3.9), assists (96) and steals (31) while ranking third in scoring (13.6) … Ranked sixth in SEC in 3-pointers made (76 total, ninth in free throw percentage (.804)and 10th in free throws made (115) … Came off the bench in the last eight games of the year to provide more balance … In those eight games, shot 46.5 percent (20-of-43) from 3-point range while handing out 20 assists … Reached double figures in scoring 20 times … Led the team in scoring 10 times.

Devonte Bandoo (6'3'' 185)
Averaged 10 ppg in Big 12 play, ranking 4th in the Big 12 in 3pt percentage at 44%... Shot 89% from the foul line.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

I mean, this is just ridiculous.

We have this really good 3 point shooter coming in that I think you're going to like. His name is Austin Reaves.

 

[Maverick008]

Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

You kind of contradicted the point you make all the time. You make it sound like OU is head and shoulders above a lot of these programs and has their choice of JUCOs that they want as long as they recruit them and yet these guys went other places. Which is it? OU can pick who they want because they are head and shoulders above the rest or other good programs get good players as well if they recruit them? Not fighting, just asking

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

You can’t seriously be making this sound like a legit argument?? I think we all agree that Jones and Bandoo would be taken over Reynolds and Lazenby probably 9/10 if not 10/10 times but you don’t just get to pick 10+ guys that can play for every roster each year. Also, Lazenby was here two years ago so not really sure how you can make that point? Chase him off I guess? This is noted by a lot of programs out there honestly and if you do that too often, things like that add up in a negative way against your program.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

Before the season, the kid that went to Wichita St. was also a “highly skilled player”, would he have added 2-3 wins as well?

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

The point here is that you wouldn’t be replacing guys that sit at the end or near the end of the bench. You would be replacing guys that helped you get to where you were this season. If you want to argue that they were better than guys in the top 7 then that’s a point worth making that is worth discussion. STOP making it sound like guys are for the pickin’ for OU as long as they recruit them. We both know (at least I think we do) that it doesn’t work that way and isn’t that easy. For you to make it sound like it is, also makes no sense

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

To be clear on this, Jones did all of this for a team that didn’t make the NCAA tournament, had their coach fired and would be blasted by everyone on this board for needing better players and better coaches had OU’s season gone the same way. Instead, you want their fired coach and player they brought off the bench the last 8 games that you apparently discussed with Anderson about being a strategy to balance the team out more? Ok, noted

The last thing I will say about this is it’s funny how you claim you want a good discussion but when someone makes a point against your claim all of the sudden their point of view is ridiculous and you can’t believe it was said and you don’t know how to respond to it because it doesn’t go with your beliefs

 

[Maverick008]

I'm making this comment a bit off the cuff, but it seems to me that Kruger has gone after a lot of JUCO's just to have a warm body, or potentially an option of the bench. I'd like to see him go after more guys that might be good starter-level kids at OU. More kids like Williams this year.

I can’t speak to Kruger’s strategy but based on the talent that has been brought in it sort of looks that way. Not sure if he just felt he needed depth at those positions or that the guys that were starting in those roles just didn’t progress as well as needed? Either way, I hope Williams does contribute more than the JUCO guys that have been brought in at this point. Although I do think that Kruger thought that the C (manyang) and PG (Strong 3rd team JUCO all american) would be starters with what OU had returning.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

Mason Jones (6'5'' 210)
Played in all 34 games and started 26 … For the season, was second on the team in rebounding (3.9), assists (96) and steals (31) while ranking third in scoring (13.6) … Ranked sixth in SEC in 3-pointers made (76 total, ninth in free throw percentage (.804)and 10th in free throws made (115) … Came off the bench in the last eight games of the year to provide more balance … In those eight games, shot 46.5 percent (20-of-43) from 3-point range while handing out 20 assists … Reached double figures in scoring 20 times … Led the team in scoring 10 times.

Devonte Bandoo (6'3'' 185)
Averaged 10 ppg in Big 12 play, ranking 4th in the Big 12 in 3pt percentage at 44%... Shot 89% from the foul line.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

I mean, this is just ridiculous.

Ok you're right. Jones and Bandoo are two of the best college basketball players on the planet. They are basically Zion and Morant and would carry a team from 7 wins to 13 in the top conference in the country. All the people who quantify this for a living are clearly idiots fot not seeing this. And it'll be ridiculous if they both don't declare since players that impactful are easily top 10 picks.

 

[hoopsaustin]

Dead serious. By the way, Sampson is on record saying the exact same thing. Feel free to think Kelvin Sampsons opinion is ridiculous too.

Times have changed since then. Drastically

 

[skyvue]

abd, as he is wont to do, has inflated the greatness of Bandoo. He was only marginally better than Reynolds. Here are the numbers:

Bandoo
Points per game 8.4
Rebounds per game 2.2
Assists per game 1.4
FG% 45.0

Reynolds
PPG 6.7
RPG 2.4
APG 1.1
FG% 41.1

 

[sperry]

I love how you’ve cherrypicked a dude who wasn’t even on your radar prior. Keeping in mind that neither are incredible players. Merely solid p5 rotation guys.

While I would take either of those guys on the roster, I can find 100 high school kids I’d rather have and who would be here 4 years.

Jucos are garbage, and you cherry picking ones that weren’t disasters is just laughable.

 

[CMSOONER]

I wouldn't say expectations for them are high... even mine. As weird as that probably sounds.

Allow me to explain my position... if you agree, great. If you don't, fine.

I still openly support the recruitment of Jamal Bienemy, Brady Manek, Kristian Doolittle, etc... I would just add pieces between the best HS players I can get with junior college players instead. On my staff would be a full-time junior college recruiter, who would know the juco coaches, leagues, and players inside and out. If the juco guy is a premier piece, great, if its a role player, I think its even better its a juco player.

There are a few benefits to this... You only commit to role players for 2 years instead of 4... Your team gets older guys, bringing in 20/21 year olds instead of 18/19 year olds. There is a difference.

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get. Especially if you position your program as the #1 destination for juco talent. Don't act like thats impossible either, we've already done that in the past.

If you think those days are gone.... Sampsons best player on a 30 win team this year was from San Jacinto JC in Texas. Before that he had the American player of the year in Rob Gray from a JC in Texas.

Look at what Bob Huggins has done with juco talent in the past few years:

Tarik Phillip - Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Got him from Independence CC in Kansas.
Jon Holton - Averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds per game
Jaysean Paige - Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Jermaine Hailey - Came in from a Odessa CC in Texas and averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 assists per game in his last 10 games last year. Will see how he does next year, but he looks like a very promising player.

So Bob Huggins can fly into Kansas and Texas and magically pick good junior college talent but OU can't? He's had other good juco players too, these are just a few examples from the past couple of years.

He isn't some crap program either... Prior to this years down-year where they had to kick multiple starters off the team and lost their best player to injury, they had finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in the Big 12 the 4 years prior to that.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

The defense of this is continually "how do you know he didn't recruit Mason Jones".... "How do you know they didn't even know about Haley?".... "How do we know Bandoo even wanted to come to OU"....

This is all just hogwash... First of all, offers are pretty openly reported. If OU offers someone its on like 5 different websites and twitter... So that is one thing... The other, OU just really isn't offering many of these guys. Just letting them go to Baylor, WVU, Houston, etc without an offer.

Second... the fact that these guys are going to Arkansas (who has had 3-4 SEC juco transfers just in the past few years), Baylor, TCU, WVU, and around the country without any OU offers tells me we have completely surrendered junior college recruiting to others and only dip into it at the 11th hour in desperation. However, we did sign Kuath and Williams and, I suspect fans will be happy with them next year.

Lastly.... my perfect recruiting class has my signing the best high school kids I can, while having a specific junior college recruiter identifying all the players who can help the team immediately win the next year. Shooters, slashers, rebounders, depth, etc... Immediate impact guys who fill the gaps in your roster. If that means 2-3 jucos per year, fine, so be it.

Hope that clarifies the position.

For me, I don't know that Bandoo and Jones would have made a significant difference over Calixte and Reynolds. Could they have... sure they could've. Maybe they would have fit the system better or been in a little better situation to be more successful. I don't have any issue with preferring Bandoo/Jones over Calixte/Reynolds.

I do think the Capel staff was very poor at evaluating Juco Talent. I also think Lons staff has not done a great job in this area either. I think they did a better job this year with Williams and hopefully Kuath, but only time will tell.

One area Lon has had success in for the most part is with transfers. And I'm seeing what I expect is a shift in philosophy across the NCAA in focusing more on the transfer/grad transfer market than the JUCO market. I think to be successful you need to have a good foot into both of these areas. With Reaves becoming eligible and anticipating Williams and Kuath to be solid contributors, I think we'll see the fruits of Lon having success in both areas.

 

[CMSOONER]

I have always been a proponent of signing juco players to fill specific needs. I realize a lot has changed since Billy and Kelvin were able to build a team around juco transfers, but there are still good recruits out there if coaches make the effort to identify and sign them. Our coaching staff did just that with Alondes Williams, a player I really like in our 2019 class. To me, that’s an encouraging step in the right direction.

Absolutely!

 

[thebigabd]

I will respond to this stuff... but doesn't sound like either side is willing to budge.

You kind of contradicted the point you make all the time. You make it sound like OU is head and shoulders above a lot of these programs and has their choice of JUCOs that they want as long as they recruit them and yet these guys went other places. Which is it? OU can pick who they want because they are head and shoulders above the rest or other good programs get good players as well if they recruit them? Not fighting, just asking

I don't understand your point here... OU didn't offer Bandoo or Jones a scholarship. OU would have been their best offer. That means OU has a better than good chance to get them in most cases.

You can’t seriously be making this sound like a legit argument?? I think we all agree that Jones and Bandoo would be taken over Reynolds and Lazenby probably 9/10 if not 10/10 times but you don’t just get to pick 10+ guys that can play for every roster each year. Also, Lazenby was here two years ago so not really sure how you can make that point? Chase him off I guess? This is noted by a lot of programs out there honestly and if you do that too often, things like that add up in a negative way against your program.

Mason Jones would have been the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team last year. Not the 10th spot.

abd, as he is wont to do, has inflated the greatness of Bandoo. He was only marginally better than Reynolds. Here are the numbers:

Bandoo
Points per game 8.4
Rebounds per game 2.2
Assists per game 1.4
FG% 45.0

Reynolds
PPG 6.7
RPG 2.4
APG 1.1
FG% 41.1

That is completely disingenuous and you know it. You are too smart for this... Reynolds has been playing college basketball for 5 years and once conference play hit he was practically unplayable. Averaged 4 ppg on 6% 3pt shooting and 52% free throw shooting... Bandoo was in his first year of college basketball and actually got better, averaging 10ppg in conference play on 44% shooting and 89% foul shooting.

Before the season, the kid that went to Wichita St. was also a “highly skilled player”, would he have added 2-3 wins as well?

Red Herring.

The last thing I will say about this is it’s funny how you claim you want a good discussion but when someone makes a point against your claim all of the sudden their point of view is ridiculous and you can’t believe it was said and you don’t know how to respond to it because it doesn’t go with your beliefs

I do want a good discussion... but it has to be within the realm of logic and reason, doesn't it? I mean... The guys on this forum are saying adding a player who, in his first year of college basketball, was better than Odomes, Reynolds, Lazenby, Calixte, Bienemy, etc wouldn't change the win total. Jones as a sophomore is comparable to James, OU's best guard, as a senior. James is better on the boards, Jones is better passing the ball.

Then on top of that, they are saying that in addition to Jones... adding Bandoo in place of Reynolds who averaged 10ppg and was the 4th best shooter in the conference (Reynolds was a 6% 3pt shooter) wouldn't change the win total.

We have this really good 3 point shooter coming in that I think you're going to like. His name is Austin Reaves.

Sounds great to me.

Ok you're right. Jones and Bandoo are two of the best college basketball players on the planet. They are basically Zion and Morant and would carry a team from 7 wins to 13 in the top conference in the country. All the people who quantify this for a living are clearly idiots fot not seeing this. And it'll be ridiculous if they both don't declare since players that impactful are easily top 10 picks.

That is not what is being discussed... What is being discussed is OU didn't offer Bandoo and Jones... Jones being in Oklahoma... and instead offered players who are CONSIDERABLY worse than Jones.

In my original response to CMSooner I said my expectations aren't that great of them... I am saying that getting the better jucos in the area is preferable to the role players OU gets now. I have proved that time and again.

Mason Jones was more productive than Odomes, Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby combined. You can't say he wouldn't have adjusted the win total.

If OU returned the same team next year, except we add Reaves and Harmon... And Reaves is identical to Bandoos impact and Harmon is identical Jones impact... Are you saying the team doesn't win 4-5 more games?

 

[WichitaSooner]

I will respond to this stuff... but doesn't sound like either side is willing to budge.



I don't understand your point here... OU didn't offer Bandoo or Jones a scholarship. OU would have been their best offer. That means OU has a better than good chance to get them in most cases.



Mason Jones would have been the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team last year. Not the 10th spot.



That is completely disingenuous and you know it. You are too smart for this... Reynolds has been playing college basketball for 5 years and once conference play hit he was practically unplayable. Averaged 4 ppg on 6% 3pt shooting and 52% free throw shooting... Bandoo was in his first year of college basketball and actually got better, averaging 10ppg in conference play on 44% shooting and 89% foul shooting.



Red Herring.



I do want a good discussion... but it has to be within the realm of logic and reason, doesn't it? I mean... The guys on this forum are saying adding a player who, in his first year of college basketball, was better than Odomes, Reynolds, Lazenby, Calixte, Bienemy, etc wouldn't change the win total. Jones as a sophomore is comparable to James, OU's best guard, as a senior. James is better on the boards, Jones is better passing the ball.

Then on top of that, they are saying that in addition to Jones... adding Bandoo in place of Reynolds who averaged 10ppg and was the 4th best shooter in the conference (Reynolds was a 6% 3pt shooter) wouldn't change the win total.



Sounds great to me.



That is not what is being discussed... What is being discussed is OU didn't offer Bandoo and Jones... Jones being in Oklahoma... and instead offered players who are CONSIDERABLY worse than Jones.

In my original response to CMSooner I said my expectations aren't that great of them... I am saying that getting the better jucos in the area is preferable to the role players OU gets now. I have proved that time and again.

Mason Jones was more productive than Odomes, Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby combined. You can't say he wouldn't have adjusted the win total.

If OU returned the same team next year, except we add Reaves and Harmon... And Reaves is identical to Bandoos impact and Harmon is identical Jones impact... Are you saying the team doesn't win 4-5 more games?

I'll address the point specific to my post. One, I think Reaves and Harmon are a much better combination than Bandoo and Jones. Two, I also expect our three best returning players to improve their games. Combine those factors with the additions of other players like Williams and Hill and Victor, and I absolutely expect us to win more games next year. And notice that I never said that there is no chance that Bandoo and Jones wouldn't have potentially added to our win total. Is it possible we would have won an extra game somewhere in conference play? Sure. But 5-6? Again, no way.

 

[Maverick008]

I don't understand your point here... OU didn't offer Bandoo or Jones a scholarship. OU would have been their best offer. That means OU has a better than good chance to get them in most cases.

It doesn’t always work that way. Not all kids think “well that’s by far the best place for me because they are the best team....” when choosing a place to go play. You are smarter than that as well. You pointed that out in another thread in regards to reasons for transferring. The same mindset goes into it for players when being recruited. How much playing time is there/The style they play/will they be the main scoring threat or is it divided/the coaching style/etc. It’s not all based on “is OU the best team/school on this list?”. ALL of those things and more go into where they decide to go.

I do want a good discussion... but it has to be within the realm of logic and reason, doesn't it? I mean... The guys on this forum are saying adding a player who, in his first year of college basketball, was better than Odomes, Reynolds, Lazenby, Calixte, Bienemy, etc wouldn't change the win total. Jones as a sophomore is comparable to James, OU's best guard, as a senior. James is better on the boards, Jones is better passing the ball.

Then on top of that, they are saying that in addition to Jones... adding Bandoo in place of Reynolds who averaged 10ppg and was the 4th best shooter in the conference (Reynolds was a 6% 3pt shooter) wouldn't change the win total.

First off, I’m not “the guys on this forum” and I already addressed this by saying that what you are claiming isn’t what would realistically happen. IF Jones was coming in for the guys you mentioned earlier which in that case the BEST guy on the list was Reynolds, then sure, OU is better based on what we now know about last year. BUT that’s not the guy he would have been competing with minutes wise. You just said it yourself that he is ALL but a James clone and if you are the coach and I tell you that you get player A or player B for that role and I tell you it’s a Sr. That has been in your program for 4 years or a Juco transfer with zero NCAA DI experience there is NO WAY you choose to go with the Juco transfer. If Jones came to OU last year than could he have taken Odomes spot? That’s possible I guess and does it make OU better? On offense, most likely but how was/is his defense compared to Odomes? What if’s can be played a lot of ways obviously. BUT I would think you would have to admit that SOMETHING with the kid is up if Anderson chose to have him come off the bench the last 8 games if he was THAT much of a scoring threat? Attitude issues? Defensive issues? Not a team guy? Who knows. But you can’t sit there and argue that it was strictly for “balance of offense” lol. This isn’t the NBA where you need two good squads for an 82 game schedule. MOST of the top players in college average 30+ mins a game if they are that good.

If OU returned the same team next year, except we add Reaves and Harmon... And Reaves is identical to Bandoos impact and Harmon is identical Jones impact... Are you saying the team doesn't win 4-5 more games?

What’s the point of this? IF Blake had returned to OU for his JR season could OU have won.....not worth finishing or discussing cause it’s not going to happen lol Also, have you thought that IF OU recruited Jones they wouldn’t have gotten Reaves for next year? Maybe it was OU/Kruger’s choice/preference to have Reaves and not mess that up by bringing in another guy at the same position?

 

[sperry]

BigABD still not addressing the fact that he threw out 4 JUCO guys that OU was "negligent" in not recruiting.

Three of them were the typical fringe D1 player that comes out of JUCO these days.


Did you ever consider that JUCO competition is so bad that it's really hard to identify the small handful of players that can actually play at the next level, and that maybe Lon would rather take much higher percentage shots on grad transfers or high school kids?


Also funny is it's not like these are elite players. Jones and Bandoo are solid players. They could absolutely be good contributors here, maybe even start. But they don't move the needle, and the overwhelming majority of JUCOs end up like your boys Torres, Trice and Virecuvic: end of the bench guys wasting a scholarship.

 

[thebigabd]

BigABD still not addressing the fact that he threw out 4 JUCO guys that OU was "negligent" in not recruiting.

Three of them were the typical fringe D1 player that comes out of JUCO these days.


Did you ever consider that JUCO competition is so bad that it's really hard to identify the small handful of players that can actually play at the next level, and that maybe Lon would rather take much higher percentage shots on grad transfers or high school kids?


Also funny is it's not like these are elite players. Jones and Bandoo are solid players. They could absolutely be good contributors here, maybe even start. But they don't move the needle, and the overwhelming majority of JUCOs end up like your boys Torres, Trice and Virecuvic: end of the bench guys wasting a scholarship.

So you don't think the staff was negligent in not recruiting a guard in your own state that is better than every guard you have on roster?

Also, let me explain why I am confused by the "we wouldn't more games" thing.

Removing bad players + adding better players = better team. Better team = more wins. This is how my mind is interpreting data.

What I am hearing on here is removing bad players + adding better players = same team. Same team = same wins.

 

[sperry]

So you don't think the staff was negligent in not recruiting a guard in your own state that is better than every guard you have on roster?

Also, let me explain why I am confused by the "we wouldn't more games" thing.

Removing bad players + adding better players = better team. Better team = more wins. This is how my mind is interpreting data.

What I am hearing on here is removing bad players + adding better players = same team. Same team = same wins.

I'm completely fine with the fact that they didn't recruit a kid who averaged 16 and 5 at Conners St. In fact, I'd be pissed if they did recruit him, because that's the kind of low percentage play that leads you to having Ty Lazenby type players on the roster.


You identified 4 JUCOs prior to the season, and 3 of them flat out sucked. You came back after the fact and cherrypicked another guy who wasn't a standout in Juco but has become a decent player at Arkansas (and let's not kid ourselves, he's nothing special; reasonable stats on a bad team). Even ignoring the fact that you cherrypicked Jones after the fact, that's a 40% hit rate, and it's not like the two hits are all-americans.

 

[thebigabd]

I'm completely fine with the fact that they didn't recruit a kid who averaged 16 and 5 at Conners St. In fact, I'd be pissed if they did recruit him, because that's the kind of low percentage play that leads you to having Ty Lazenby type players on the roster.


You identified 4 JUCOs prior to the season, and 3 of them flat out sucked. You came back after the fact and cherrypicked another guy who wasn't a standout in Juco but has become a decent player at Arkansas (and let's not kid ourselves, he's nothing special; reasonable stats on a bad team). Even ignoring the fact that you cherrypicked Jones after the fact, that's a 40% hit rate, and it's not like the two hits are all-americans.

Lets resolve this issue... Since it keeps coming up. Good thing its offseason.

I don't have a recruiting budget... I don't recruit players... The guys I picked for this particular exercise were selected based on offers, stats, etc. I didn't "evaluate" them... I didn't bring them to my house and have them run drills and stuff..

You are trying to reshape this entire ordeal to something that doesn't matter... "see, the guys you picked weren't good, how could you possibly expect Lon to pick the right guys"... Do you really believe in that sentiment?

Guys like you and me really don't know who is going to be good or not until they get D1. Paid coaches, however, are supposed to be able to identify proper talent starting in their region and working their way out from there. They get paid millions of dollars to do this, develop relationships with local coaches, go to camps, invite people to campus, etc.

So now lets address your claim.... I cherry picked someone. The guy I cherry picked was in the home state. Turns out he was the most productive recruit to come out of the state.

We only know what we know now, but I would expect Lon to be aware that there was a really good player down the road. Bring him in for a visit. Have him work out with the guys... Offer him a scholarship if you fancy him.

He repeated this pattern with other players... Aaron Calixte and Miles Reynolds, who combined aren't as valuable as Mason Jones. Why did he go through such effort to bring in Miles Reynolds from California, but expended no effort on Mason Jones?

I didn't know about Mason Jones until I saw he signed with Arkansas... He slipped under my radar of random net research. His coach didn't call me, or email me... I didn't notice him at juco tournaments or showcase events... I didn't have a member on my staff that is there to identify talent for me to evaluate. Because I don't have any of these things.

In other words.... I didn't know about Mason Jones. Maybe that concerns you. But what concerns me is that Lon Kruger didn't know about Mason Jones, and instead went after players who are significantly less valuable.

Had this guy been from Canada, or Washington, or Florida, etc... sure, I wouldn't expect you to know of every diamond in the rough from all over the country. You simply don't need to do that. But it concerns me that we went to Maine, California, New Zealand, Finland, etc while some many of these other guys are right here with no offers.

Thats why I don't go "cherry picking" guys from all over the country. That wouldn't be fair. But guys within 3 hours from your campus? That seems inexcusable to me, unless of course you are bringing in far superior talent, but he isn't... That opens the door for fair criticism, in my opinion. Hopefully that addresses the other complaint, that I always point out that they are 3-4 hours by car away from Norman. You should know these guys inside and out....

Which brings me to the next critique people have of the logic.... "How do you know Lon didn't know them inside and out and chose otherwise"... If I accept that to be true, that means Lon would have had Jones (as an example) in for a visit, worked him out... then compared him to Miles Reynolds, and specifically chose to offer Reynolds a scholarship and not Jones. These recruiting efforts are usually widely reported, which didnt happen here. That is clue #1... The other part is, if he had done that, it seems obvious to me that a paid professional would see that Jones was better than Calixte or Reynolds. If he had done his due diligence on local talent, he wouldn't have made the choice he did unless he was rejected by the primary target.

There you have it... I laid out my entire throught process in what I think is a productive and clear manner. I typed quickly, so I apologize for any errors.

 

[skyvue]

That is completely disingenuous and you know it. You are too smart for this... Reynolds has been playing college basketball for 5 years and once conference play hit he was practically unplayable. Averaged 4 ppg on 6% 3pt shooting and 52% free throw shooting... Bandoo was in his first year of college basketball and actually got better, averaging 10ppg in conference play on 44% shooting and 89% foul shooting.

I'm too smart to think that Reynolds played college basketball for five years -- entering last season, he had played three seasons.

I'm also too smart to accept the notion that Bandoo had never played college basketball before last season. He had played two seasons of junior college ball (please note the word "college" in the phrase "junior college ball").

I'm too smart to let you keep moving the goalposts. You can't keep touting junior college players and then pretend that juco ball isn't college basketball and that juco transfers should be held to lower standards.

And I'm too smart to fall for your consistent practice of cherry-picking stats. You can't pick the half-season that matters to you -- well, you can, but it's a bogus argument. The entire season matters, plain and simple.

 

[152219]

Bandoo had a very good February and that drove his season stats. But, overall he was slightly better than Reynolds.