Kuar Kauath

[WaymanFan]

As others have pointed out, it is not even remotely true that every JUCO kid within a few hours of Norman would be interested in, let alone sign with, OU.

But most of them SHOULD be interested. That's the tradition Billy Tubbs started and Kelvin Sampson maintained. For about 25 years, OU was the #1 destination for the best-of-the-best JUCO players. Granted, there are nowhere near as many good ones as in the past, but I cannot find a reason why we shouldn't (or can't) be plucking the cream of the crop to help us.

Billy knew that OU was never going to compete with the blue bloods or even one step down from the blue bloods (Syracuse, Arizona, Michigan State, etc), so JUCO was the way to go. Kelvin was smart enough to piggy-back off that. What would the Kelvin era have been like without Corey Brewer, Ace McGhee, Quannas White, Taj Gray and Terrell Everett?

Again, I understand that we shouldn't be recruiting JUCO players like before, but we should be able to cherry-pick based on being the #1 school in America for JUCO talent from the early '80s through the mid 2000s. Coach Capel ended that tradition and Lon Kruger doesn't seem to want to get it back...and I think we've missed out on some guys who would have been able to help us.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

But most of them SHOULD be interested. That's the tradition Billy Tubbs started and Kelvin Sampson maintained. For about 25 years, OU was the #1 destination for the best-of-the-best JUCO players. Granted, there are nowhere near as many good ones as in the past, but I cannot find a reason why we shouldn't (or can't) be plucking the cream of the crop to help us.

Billy knew that OU was never going to compete with the blue bloods or even one step down from the blue bloods (Syracuse, Arizona, Michigan State, etc), so JUCO was the way to go. Kelvin was smart enough to piggy-back off that. What would the Kelvin era have been like without Corey Brewer, Ace McGhee, Quannas White, Taj Gray and Terrell Everett?

Again, I understand that we shouldn't be recruiting JUCO players like before, but we should be able to cherry-pick based on being the #1 school in America for JUCO talent from the early '80s through the mid 2000s. Coach Capel ended that tradition and Lon Kruger doesn't seem to want to get it back...and I think we've missed out on some guys who would have been able to help us.

How many high school seniors has OU missed out on that could've helped us?

The question isn't "should JUCO guys be interested in OU?" and it's not "should OU recruit the best of the best JUCO guys?". (Again, we're assuming that the OP's favorite JUCO guys are the best of the best, but I digress.) The question is about how to allocate our coaches' time. There are only so many hours in the day and there is only so much time they can spend recruiting so while we're saying "OU should be doing a better job recruiting JUCO guys" that comes at a cost. The cost is the time they could be spending recruiting high school guys.

If a college coach goes and watches a JUCO guy play, he's going to see 1 or maybe 2 guys that MIGHT be able to help him (at least at OU). He goes to watch an AAU tournament and there are probably 6 or 8 (or more) guys he has a chance of recruiting -- guys who are, on average, more talented and who would be on the roster 4 years instead of 2.

The success that Sampson has had at UH with JUCO guys the last couple of years has come at the expense of high school guys. He recruited them INSTEAD of recruiting high school guys because he needed to get better quicker and he saw an opening. But this was a small opening that can't be filled by many coaches because there just aren't that many JUCO guys out there. And it's left UH with a pretty big hole to fill since those top JUCO guys are all finishing their college careers.

So, is there a JUCO guy or 2 that OU has missed out on that could've helped us? Yep. Are there high school guys that OU has missed out on that could've helped us? Of course, and many more. This will always be true but it will be foolish for OU's coaches to spend the bulk of their time chasing the elusive JUCO guy who can help us when they can spend it instead chasing multiple high school guys who are, on average, better and will be at OU for twice the amount of time

It's clear that some here would prefer JUCO point guards to De'Vion Harmon. I'm not one of those guys and you will never be able to convince me that that's how our coaches should spend their time.

My final question then becomes, how many threads this offseason must be used to discuss how wonderful all these JUCO guys are? This has to be at least the 4th or 5th where the same arguments get rehashed over and over. Instead of a thread where someone complains about the 3 or 4 JUCO guys that could've helped OU, why don't we create a thread where all we do is list high school guys who could've helped OU and see which list is longer.

 

[WTSooner]

Kelvin is rebuilding a program at UH though. Not apples to apples to the current OU situation. Or shouldn't be, even though I feel like we're rebuilding in some ways.

Kelvin is doing the exact same thing at UH that he did at OU. He's going JUCO heavy to start, and as his program gains traction, he'll be able to start recruiting the level of HS kids that can continue winning at that level or higher. He can't get those kids out of HS yet.

 

[BCSooners]

Kelvin is rebuilding a program at UH though. Not apples to apples to the current OU situation. Or shouldn't be, even though I feel like we're rebuilding in some ways.

Kelvin is doing the exact same thing at UH that he did at OU. He's going JUCO heavy to start, and as his program gains traction, he'll be able to start recruiting the level of HS kids that can continue winning at that level or higher. He can't get those kids out of HS yet.

Wouldn't you agree Lon had a rebuilding job at OU and he did it through HS guys? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Kelvin has his plan & Lon has his, they are different but work for each coach.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

Wouldn't you agree Lon had a rebuilding job at OU and he did it through HS guys? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Kelvin has his plan & Lon has his, they are different but work for each coach.

Yep. Both have been successful at multiple college programs doing it their way. Besides other differences in coaching style and focus, Kelvin seems to prize tough "junkyard dog" type of players. It would be fine with me if Lon recruited one or two fellows with this trait. He has in the past. Isaiah Cousins comes to mind.

 

[thebigabd]

Let me say that I think this is a really good discussion. I don't think it needs to be negative, or a fight, or offend anyone. This issue has been around for a long time, and the more it does the more I think it is almost unique to OU basketball. Maybe not other MAJOR program has done so much with junior college talent, which is why factions within the fan base think it's the only way when things consistently go bad. OU has had incredible seasons under Capel, and under Kruger.. but the bad has been REALLY bad.

Nothing wrong with a good discussion.

 

[CoachTalk]

Let me say that I think this is a really good discussion. I don't think it needs to be negative, or a fight, or offend anyone. This issue has been around for a long time, and the more it does the more I think it is almost unique to OU basketball. Maybe not other MAJOR program has done so much with junior college talent, which is why factions within the fan base think it's the only way when things consistently go bad. OU has had incredible seasons under Capel, and under Kruger.. but the bad has been REALLY bad.

Nothing wrong with a good discussion.

Honestly I like your idea. I think we should supplement juco when we can. I like the experience I like the toughness. And face it, juco kids usually have been through a lot and are ready to finish what they’ve started.

I don’t think we should go full juco 2-3-4 every year but I have zero problem bringing them in!!

 

[coolm]

i like the idea of bringing some juco's in every year when possible.

 

[AdaSooner]

Lots of good points made in this thread. The bigabd made his case well, and for the most part I agree that our coaches are making a mistake by waiting until the pressure is on to identify and recruit juco players.

True, no one can be certain the process to sign a player didn’t start earlier in the season. But, when a brief on a web site or a tweet from a juco recruit says he is “Blessed to receive an OU offer,” long after he already has a lengthy list of suitors, I think it’s safe to say he was not an OU priority.

WaymanFan is right in that OU was the #1 destination for juco players in the Tubbs and Sampson eras. Billy, Kelvin and “The Tark” relied heavily on juco tranfers to round out their rosters, and to compete—very well thank you—with the so-called “Blue Bloods.”

I don’t think juco players see us that way now. Capel changed the dynamics when he focused his attention almost entirely on high school players until he was deparate to fill a roster space toward the end of his stay at OU. Coach Kruger appears to wait too long to target juco players. Did our recruiting philosophy in the last few years have an effect on our ability to sign the best of the best in the juco ranks? I definitely think it’s possible.

I also agree with those who say this is a different era. There are not as many good juco players available these day, but they’re out there if you keep an open mind to recruiting them early on instead of as an afterthought. I have never had a problem with a healthy mix of high school recruits and tranfers to fill specific needs, somewhere between one and three would be ideal most seasons.

 

[usedtobe1]

OU recruited KUr Kuath early. I bet they sign a couple of jucos or transfers in the next class. No way they sign 6 HS seniors.

 

[colston15]

Transfers - Graduate and the regular - are the new JUCOs.

There aren't any successful Power 5 programs that use the JUCO route regularly anymore.

 

[WTSooner]

There aren't any successful Power 5 programs that use the JUCO route regularly anymore.

Is this true?

Assuming by "successful Power 5 programs" you aren't limiting that to only schools like Duke, UK, MSU, and KU.

I'd also argue that the JUCO programs aren't beneficial to schools all over the country. Seems like that talent is kind located in the midwest and maybe southern states. Obviously Oregon, and the Cali schools, and even the NE schools would be at a disadvantage.

 

[sperry]

OU recruited KUr Kuath early. I bet they sign a couple of jucos or transfers in the next class. No way they sign 6 HS seniors.

I'm guessing they sign something like 3 HS kids, 2 grad transfers, and one traditional or JUCO transfer. We're going to need the grad transfers again to fill the lineup, with only Manek, Bienemy, Reaves, Kuath and freshmen as lineup guys.

 

[AdaSooner]

Is this true?

Assuming by "successful Power 5 programs" you aren't limiting that to only schools like Duke, UK, MSU, and KU.

I'd also argue that the JUCO programs aren't beneficial to schools all over the country. Seems like that talent is kind located in the midwest and maybe southern states. Obviously Oregon, and the Cali schools, and even the NE schools would be at a disadvantage.

Not exactly. Here is a list of where the top 15 juco transfers are going in 2018. Maybe someone else has a larger list.

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=JuniorCollege

This may not prove that successful power 5 schools rely on JC tranfers every season, but it does show that several successful programs don’t have a problem with going the juco route to fill needs. After all, isn’t that what we’re saying OU should do when need be?

 

[TINY]

I think people are getting mixed up on what we are debating. No one is saying we should not take a quality juco when we can. Kruger has locked up elite jucos early before, too.

Correct me if I’m wrong, ABD, but it’s your position that ou should recruit jucos over high school players for the most part. It’s your belief that we can’t get the good high school players consistently so we might as well try to get the best 3-4 jucos every year. That is the debate.

 

[AdaSooner]

I think people are getting mixed up on what we are debating. No one is saying we should not take a quality juco when we can. Kruger has locked up elite jucos early before, too.

Correct me if I’m wrong, ABD, but it’s your position that ou should recruit jucos over high school players for the most part. It’s your belief that we can’t get the good high school players consistently so we might as well try to get the best 3-4 jucos every year. That is the debate.

TINY, thebigabd will have to answer that question for himself. That’s not what I’m saying, and I don’t believe ABD, WT and others who don’t have a problem with recruiting jucos feel that way either.

I am saying our coaching staff MAY need to get in on juco transfers earlier in the season, although usedtobe1 reminded me that Kur Kauth was an early target for OU.

The jury is still out on Kur for me, but if he works hard to improve his offense, he could be really good in time. It’s obvious our coaches see that, too. I can only hope they’re right.

To be clear, I am not for recruiting jucos over high school players. That’s why I said the ideal number of transfers from anywhere for me, juco or four year schools, is somewhere between one and three in one season, depending on the needs and the scholarships we have to fill.

 

[Eielson]

What would the Kelvin era have been like without Corey Brewer, Ace McGhee, Quannas White, Taj Gray and Terrell Everett?

It's important to always adapt with the times, though, and each coach has their own style. In the Kruger era, I think you can switch those names with guys like Osby, Spangler, M'Baye, Thomas, Reaves, and Calixte (fingers crossed on last two, and I'm aware Osby was Capel's addition).

I think the JUCO powerhouse tradition may have lost all momentum. Kids in JUCO these days don't remember the Tubbs and Sampson eras very well. I think the momentum to build on is developing guys like Buddy Hield and Isaiah Cousins over the course of 4 years. Hopefully the coaching staff gets back to priding themselves in that.

 

[SoonerinNC]

I feel that Billy was well ahead of the curve on the JUCO's and it paid off big for him.

Then when the other programs jumped in he was unable to get as many good players from that source. Also it seems that a lot fewer top players fail to qualify academicly over the last few years and if so fewer will go the JUCO route.

Also there are a lot fewer redshirt in recent years so I don't expect Kauath to redshirt.

 

[WaymanFan]

I feel that Billy was well ahead of the curve on the JUCO's and it paid off big for him.

Then when the other programs jumped in he was unable to get as many good players from that source.

No, Billy was killing it with JUCOs right to the very end. His problem was that he wasn't getting any good high school players in the 1990s. He hit a home run with Ryan Minor, but barely got singles with anyone else (Webster and Sallier were late '80s recruits). He was just burned out. He left Kelvin Sampson with JUCO John Ontges, and he turned out to be Kelvin's second best true PG in his tenure.


Bobby Knight won his last title in '87 because he needed two starters - and got JUCOs Keith Smart and Dean Garrett. UNLV won the title in '90 after securing JUCO Larry Johnson. Yeah, no such thing as a Larry Johnson in JUCO any more, but I guarantee you that you will still find a Keith Smart or Dean Garrett on occasion.


Anyway, I get it that Capel and Kruger just decided to go different routes...I just with they kept the momentum going that started with Tubbs and continued with Sampson.

 

[thebigabd]

But most of them SHOULD be interested. That's the tradition Billy Tubbs started and Kelvin Sampson maintained. For about 25 years, OU was the #1 destination for the best-of-the-best JUCO players.

This. 100% agree.

I'd also argue that the JUCO programs aren't beneficial to schools all over the country. Seems like that talent is kind located in the midwest and maybe southern states. Obviously Oregon, and the Cali schools, and even the NE schools would be at a disadvantage.

Even that article I posted from 2002.... Kelvin said this is unique to this area, and maybe even to OU.

Correct me if I’m wrong, ABD, but it’s your position that ou should recruit jucos over high school players for the most part. It’s your belief that we can’t get the good high school players consistently so we might as well try to get the best 3-4 jucos every year. That is the debate.

Essentially, yes. With an asterisk though. My official position, if I was explaining it to Joe Castiglione, is that because of the history of the program, geographic proximity to the schools, and recruiting realities of the program that OU should have one of the coaches scouting junior colleges in Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and a few others in Idaho, Wyoming, and Florida that always seem to produce very good talent... FULL TIME. OU needs to be best program on these guy in the early period. And, I think they would be. Normally the other programs aren't pouring in until way later.

If we need a big guy, shooters, scorers, whatever... and one is ready to pull the trigger on OU early in the recruiting season that is a legit talent, you sign him November, end of story. You take Shak Juiston instead of fighting for the top 70 guy to the end, etc.

I can't find the article, but I read once where OU's relationship with these schools was so good that they would call Billy and Kelvin and say "I got a player here, and you will want him"...

There isn't a doubt in my mind that OU could have been a finalist or the selection, in recent years, for these guys we keep talking about. The past few seasons for OU would have been a lot different if that were true.

Also, it really needs to be from the good juco leagues. Kansas, Texas, Iowa, Florida as the primary.

Look at some of the duds:
Nick Thompson: Utah
Ty Lazenby: Oklahoma
Omar Leary: Colorado
Casey Arent: California
CJ Washington: Oklahoma
Chris Walker: California

Then look at the good ones, OU and the recent examples:

Ebi Ere: Kansas
Jason Detrick: Missouri
Taj Gray: Kansas
Terrell Everett: Missouri
Quannas White: Texas
Nolan Johnson: Texas
Mike Neal: Texas
Rob Gray: Texas
Vladimir Broadziansky: Kansas
Shak Juiston: Kansas
Kelley Newton: Kansas
Loal Acuil: Kansas
Corey Davis: Texas
Ace Mcghee: Indiana

Are they all good from these schools? No. But the leagues are just better in Texas, Kansas, Iowa, and Florida. There is a more consistent pattern with Kansas, Texas, Missouri, and Iowa. Which plays well into OU's hands.

If I had it my way, I would have tried very hard for this years class to be:
Ricky Torres (Missouri)
Devonte Bandoo (Kansas)
Antun Miricevic (Wyoming)
Jamal Bienemy

The year before I would have tried to get:
Shak Juiston (Kansas juco)
DeQuon Lake (Iowa juco)
Brady Manek (Oklahoma HS)
Trae Young (Oklahoma HS)

The year before I would have tried to get:
Donovan Jackson (Iowa juco… all big 12 player)
Niem Stevenson (Texas juco)
Kristian Doolittle (Oklahoma HS)
etc

You see the pattern... Man oh man if OU would have had Juiston and Lake on this years team.. Of course, if you have those guys you wouldn't have others. If you had Jackson, Stevenson, etc you wouldn't have McGusty, James, Sheph, Mcnease, etc. I think it's clear OU would have had Doolittle, Young, Manek, etc regardless.

So my position isn't ALL juco, but it is juco heavy. At least 2 per year, signed early, of guys like mentioned above. If you can't sign em, you can't sign em… but I would be trying very hard to get the best ways and to make OU the #1 destination for them again.