Kuar Kauath

[CoachTalk]

So what guys would you go get for next years class?

This. 100% agree.

Even that article I posted from 2002.... Kelvin said this is unique to this area, and maybe even to OU.


Essentially, yes. With an asterisk though. My official position, if I was explaining it to Joe Castiglione, is that because of the history of the program, geographic proximity to the schools, and recruiting realities of the program that OU should have one of the coaches scouting junior colleges in Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and a few others in Idaho, Wyoming, and Florida that always seem to produce very good talent... FULL TIME. OU needs to be best program on these guy in the early period. And, I think they would be. Normally the other programs aren't pouring in until way later.

If we need a big guy, shooters, scorers, whatever... and one is ready to pull the trigger on OU early in the recruiting season that is a legit talent, you sign him November, end of story. You take Shak Juiston instead of fighting for the top 70 guy to the end, etc.

I can't find the article, but I read once where OU's relationship with these schools was so good that they would call Billy and Kelvin and say "I got a player here, and you will want him"...

There isn't a doubt in my mind that OU could have been a finalist or the selection, in recent years, for these guys we keep talking about. The past few seasons for OU would have been a lot different if that were true.

Also, it really needs to be from the good juco leagues. Kansas, Texas, Iowa, Florida as the primary.

Look at some of the duds:
Nick Thompson: Utah
Ty Lazenby: Oklahoma
Omar Leary: Colorado
Casey Arent: California
CJ Washington: Oklahoma
Chris Walker: California

Then look at the good ones, OU and the recent examples:

Ebi Ere: Kansas
Jason Detrick: Missouri
Taj Gray: Kansas
Terrell Everett: Missouri
Quannas White: Texas
Nolan Johnson: Texas
Mike Neal: Texas
Rob Gray: Texas
Vladimir Broadziansky: Kansas
Shak Juiston: Kansas
Kelley Newton: Kansas
Loal Acuil: Kansas
Corey Davis: Texas
Ace Mcghee: Indiana

Are they all good from these schools? No. But the leagues are just better in Texas, Kansas, Iowa, and Florida. There is a more consistent pattern with Kansas, Texas, Missouri, and Iowa. Which plays well into OU's hands.

If I had it my way, I would have tried very hard for this years class to be:
Ricky Torres (Missouri)
Devonte Bandoo (Kansas)
Antun Miricevic (Wyoming)
Jamal Bienemy

The year before I would have tried to get:
Shak Juiston (Kansas juco)
DeQuon Lake (Iowa juco)
Brady Manek (Oklahoma HS)
Trae Young (Oklahoma HS)

The year before I would have tried to get:
Donovan Jackson (Iowa juco… all big 12 player)
Niem Stevenson (Texas juco)
Kristian Doolittle (Oklahoma HS)
etc

You see the pattern... Man oh man if OU would have had Juiston and Lake on this years team.. Of course, if you have those guys you wouldn't have others. If you had Jackson, Stevenson, etc you wouldn't have McGusty, James, Sheph, Mcnease, etc. I think it's clear OU would have had Doolittle, Young, Manek, etc regardless.

So my position isn't ALL juco, but it is juco heavy. At least 2 per year, signed early, of guys like mentioned above. If you can't sign em, you can't sign em… but I would be trying very hard to get the best ways and to make OU the #1 destination for them again.

 

[Salt City Sooner]

This. 100% agree.




Even that article I posted from 2002.... Kelvin said this is unique to this area, and maybe even to OU.




Essentially, yes. With an asterisk though. My official position, if I was explaining it to Joe Castiglione, is that because of the history of the program, geographic proximity to the schools, and recruiting realities of the program that OU should have one of the coaches scouting junior colleges in Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and a few others in Idaho, Wyoming, and Florida that always seem to produce very good talent... FULL TIME. OU needs to be best program on these guy in the early period. And, I think they would be. Normally the other programs aren't pouring in until way later.

If we need a big guy, shooters, scorers, whatever... and one is ready to pull the trigger on OU early in the recruiting season that is a legit talent, you sign him November, end of story. You take Shak Juiston instead of fighting for the top 70 guy to the end, etc.

I can't find the article, but I read once where OU's relationship with these schools was so good that they would call Billy and Kelvin and say "I got a player here, and you will want him"...

There isn't a doubt in my mind that OU could have been a finalist or the selection, in recent years, for these guys we keep talking about. The past few seasons for OU would have been a lot different if that were true.

Also, it really needs to be from the good juco leagues. Kansas, Texas, Iowa, Florida as the primary.

Look at some of the duds:
Nick Thompson: Utah
Ty Lazenby: Oklahoma
Omar Leary: Colorado
Casey Arent: California
CJ Washington: Oklahoma
Chris Walker: California

Then look at the good ones, OU and the recent examples:

Ebi Ere: Kansas
Jason Detrick: Missouri
Taj Gray: Kansas
Terrell Everett: Missouri
Quannas White: Texas
Nolan Johnson: Texas
Mike Neal: Texas
Rob Gray: Texas
Vladimir Broadziansky: Kansas
Shak Juiston: Kansas
Kelley Newton: Kansas
Loal Acuil: Kansas
Corey Davis: Texas
Ace Mcghee: Indiana

Are they all good from these schools? No. But the leagues are just better in Texas, Kansas, Iowa, and Florida. There is a more consistent pattern with Kansas, Texas, Missouri, and Iowa. Which plays well into OU's hands.

If I had it my way, I would have tried very hard for this years class to be:
Ricky Torres (Missouri)
Devonte Bandoo (Kansas)
Antun Miricevic (Wyoming)
Jamal Bienemy

The year before I would have tried to get:
Shak Juiston (Kansas juco)
DeQuon Lake (Iowa juco)
Brady Manek (Oklahoma HS)
Trae Young (Oklahoma HS)

The year before I would have tried to get:
Donovan Jackson (Iowa juco… all big 12 player)
Niem Stevenson (Texas juco)
Kristian Doolittle (Oklahoma HS)
etc

You see the pattern... Man oh man if OU would have had Juiston and Lake on this years team.. Of course, if you have those guys you wouldn't have others. If you had Jackson, Stevenson, etc you wouldn't have McGusty, James, Sheph, Mcnease, etc. I think it's clear OU would have had Doolittle, Young, Manek, etc regardless.

So my position isn't ALL juco, but it is juco heavy. At least 2 per year, signed early, of guys like mentioned above. If you can't sign em, you can't sign em… but I would be trying very hard to get the best ways and to make OU the #1 destination for them again.

Just a FWIW, but Taj went to Redlands in El Reno.

 

[sperry]

It's also worth noting the much higher rate of discipline problems that have followed JUCOs to OU than high school kids. A lot of these guys end up getting kicked off the team, and several others probably should have been. A lot of the guys that bigabd cites as examples for quality juco players in recent years end up at programs not known for their rigorous enforcement of personal conduct, like Memphis and Baylor.

 

[Ghost of Gar Heard]

So what guys would you go get for next years class?

Nothing but JUCOs.

Every single thread on ouhoops.com invariably becomes a JUCO vs HS player debate. I went away for Memorial Day weekend and come back and this argument, which ran its course weeks ago, is somehow still going on.

Can we all just agree that we should always recruit as many JUCOs as possible so that there can be some other discussion on this site.

Or, I suggest changing the name of this site to something more accurate, like jucoplayersrule.com or something like that.

 

[AdaSooner]

Nothing but JUCOs.

Every single thread on ouhoops.com invariably becomes a JUCO vs HS player debate. I went away for Memorial Day weekend and come back and this argument, which ran its course weeks ago, is somehow still going on.

Can we all just agree that we should always recruit as many JUCOs as possible so that there can be some other discussion on this site.

Or, I suggest changing the name of this site to something more accurate, like jucoplayersrule.com or something like that.

You obviously scan read this thread and assumed the majority of posters were in favor of going back to the days when juco recruits sometimes dominated the scene under Billy and Kelvin. I can assure you that is not what anyone wants, and because I know him as well as anyone here, that includes thebigabd.

Some, including me, don’t have a problem with mixing in a juco, traditional or grad transfer to fill needs when necessary. Personally, I think the right mix may be one to three most seasons, and sometimes none. Others may see it differently, but no one except maybe thebigabd is remotely suggesting that OU could or should go back to the days when Kelvin and Billy were successful relying heavily on juco players. Kelvin is still doing it to some extent at Houston. Good for him! I, for one, do not want to see it—or him—at OU.

So, to answer your question “Can we all just agree that we should always recruit as many JUCOs as possible so that there can be some other discussion on this site?” Count me in! I’m ready to move on too. As for the threads thebigabd starts, they tend to generate discussions when the board is slow, like now. Nothing wrong with that. He’s good at it. Agree or disagree, he’s also good at defending his position on various topics. Fan boards need more like him. They also need posters like you who are perfectly capable of starting threads on other topics.

 

[thebigabd]

Nothing but JUCOs.

Every single thread on ouhoops.com invariably becomes a JUCO vs HS player debate. I went away for Memorial Day weekend and come back and this argument, which ran its course weeks ago, is somehow still going on.

Can we all just agree that we should always recruit as many JUCOs as possible so that there can be some other discussion on this site.

Or, I suggest changing the name of this site to something more accurate, like jucoplayersrule.com or something like that.

Gar Heard,

This is now the second or third abrasive post I have seen from you...

You know whats funny about a thread that is now 5-6 pages long? It means people are engaged in the conversation. If you want to start some other topic, go ahead, get one going and don't click on this one.

I can't talk to myself... so in order for the thread to continue people have to be engaged, and they obviously are. Also, it is summer time. There isn't any active basketball to discuss.

End of the day... if you don't want to read it, then don't. Seems weird to go to a public forum and try to blast people for what they are actively engaged in on that forum.

 

[SoonerTraveler]

Gar Heard,

This is now the second or third abrasive post I have seen from you...

Abusive? Abusive?? You have got to be kidding. There is nothing remotely "abusive" in what you quoted from Ghost.

I thought message boards were available for fans to vent their frustrations and state their opinions. Based on my reading, that is all Ghost is doing in that post.

 

[thebigabd]

Abusive? Abusive?? You have got to be kidding. There is nothing remotely "abusive" in what you quoted from Ghost.

I thought message boards were available for fans to vent their frustrations and state their opinions. Based on my reading, that is all Ghost is doing in that post.

I said ABRASIVE... not ABUSIVE.

 

[AdaSooner]

Abusive? Abusive?? You have got to be kidding. There is nothing remotely "abusive" in what you quoted from Ghost.

I thought message boards were available for fans to vent their frustrations and state their opinions. Based on my reading, that is all Ghost is doing in that post.

Agreed. I see nothing wrong with anything Gar said, except he may have overreacted a little by assuming the majority of participants in thebigabd’s thread wanted to see a return to recruiting juco transfers over high school players. He was asking if we could move on to other topics. Nothing wrong with that either. But, thebigabd is right in that this thread and others he starts usually generates discussions that can be the lifeblood of fan boards in the off season.

I have never had a problem with bringing in an occasional juco player to fill needs. But I think most of us know the days of being successful by loading a roster with juco transfers the way Billy and Kelvin used to do are gone forever, at least at OU.

OU ‘s coaching staff signed an outstanding perimeter shooter in Reaves and two grad transfers to fill the gaps left by McGusty and Shepherd. I applaud the choices they made. No way I wanted to see a juco guard with two years to play on our roster who might cause Ja’Vion Harmon to have second thoughts about his commitment.

 

[Maverick008]

Personally, I think the right mix may be one to three most seasons, and sometimes none.

If you look at what Kruger has done though this really is the case since he's been here (per rivals):

2011- Total commitments for the class- 2 (2 Jucos)- Casey Arent and Sam Grooms
2012- Total commitments for the class- 6 (1 Juco)- DJ Bennett- Jarion Henry and CJ cole were 2 of those 6 commitments
2013- Total commitments for the class- 3 (1 Juco)- Keshaun Hamilton- Not sure he made it to the fall
2014- Total commitments for the class- 5 (1 Juco)- Dinjiyl Walker- Bola Alade was one of those commits
2015- Total commitments for the class- 4 (1 Juco)- Akolda Manyang
2016- Total commitments for the class- 4 (1 Juco)- Darrian Strong
2017- Total commitments for the class- 3 (0 Jucos)

And if you look at where those guys were from (Juco location): CA/FL/3-IA/2-KS it's not far off from what abd is suggesting. Some of those guys were supposed to come in right away and help out, others were back-ups and most likely because the staff didn't get who they originally wanted for the position (it happens). Hamilton and Manyang were both 7 footers who guys on this board wanted.

It doesn't always work out the way the staff/fans want but to say this staff doesn't recruit jucos at all is absurd. Hind sight is always 20/20. Personally I'm still waiting for the list from abd of who he wants next season from the Juco ranks.....To say the staff can have whoever they want is also absurd. Different coaches recruit different ways and that goes right down to the "attitude" of a player especially for this staff. Some of the guys that he has mentioned as being OU's if they wanted, committed to UNLV over KU as well as OU.

We'll see how some of them do next year that he has mentioned but to compare them to the graduate transfers is unfair as well. Kruger wanted "leadership" for sure for next year and went the graduate transfer route to get there. I'd think we'd mostly agree that a juco transfer probably doesn't bring a ton of that sort of leadership to a team and when I say that, Darian Strong comes to mind as the most recent juco transfer who was from one of the better KS jucos in the area.

 

[skyvue]

This is now the second or third abrasive post I have seen from you...

See, I find abrasive the incessant criticism of players who are signed with the Sooners but have yet to play a minute or even officially practice with the team. I find the relentess drumbeating of your opinion that Coach Kruger should be recruiting the way Billy and Kelvin did 20 years ago a questionable stance (and to see it repeated over and over and over is, well, abrasive).

I also find your refusal to address many of the counterpoints offered in those discussions telling. To name one example, you cited the schools that had recruited one of your favorite juco players as evidence that Kruger and Co. had dropped the ball (ie. not done what you would have had them do), but when I cited the quality programs that had been recruiting one of our grad transfers, a player you have trashed in post after post, I heard nothing but crickets. In that instance, I found your silence abrasive.

I guess abrasive is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[thebigabd]

See, I find abrasive the incessant criticism of players who are signed with the Sooners but have yet to play a minute or even officially practice with the team. I find the relentess drumbeating of your opinion that Coach Kruger should be recruiting the way Billy and Kelvin did 20 years ago a questionable stance (and to see it repeated over and over and over is, well, abrasive).

I also find your refusal to address many of the counterpoints offered in those discussions telling. To name one example, you cited the schools that had recruited one of your favorite juco players as evidence that Kruger and Co. had dropped the ball (ie. not done what you would have had them do), but when I cited the quality programs that had been recruiting one of our grad transfers, a player you have trashed in post after post, I heard nothing but crickets. In that instance, I found your silence abrasive.

I guess abrasive is in the eye of the beholder.

Pretty ridiculous, sky. Abrasive silence. I like that.

That being said, I will acknowledge the counter-point. Florida State and Mizzou were after Calixte as well. OU, FSU, and Missouri coaches see something in Calixte. I want him to do well, there are just a few red flags around him and this staff has brought in some total duds. He is the inherent starter at PG and there was already another topic somewhere about how they will do, which I contributed to as well.

I look forward to contributing to Ghost of Gar Heards and Skyvues next topic of conversation on OU basketball. I bet Gar will really get things cookin' soon. He's probably full of interesting topics that will make everyone happy.

 

[SuperHoops]

Pretty ridiculous, sky. Abrasive silence. I like that.

That being said, I will acknowledge the counter-point. Florida State and Mizzou were after Calixte as well. OU, FSU, and Missouri coaches see something in Calixte. I want him to do well, there are just a few red flags around him and this staff has brought in some total duds. He is the inherent starter at PG and there was already another topic somewhere about how they will do, which I contributed to as well.

I look forward to contributing to Ghost of Gar Heards and Skyvues next topic of conversation on OU basketball. I bet Gar will really get things cookin' soon. He's probably full of interesting topics that will make everyone happy.

I didn't even know that Gar Heard was dead.

 

[thebigabd]

So what guys would you go get for next years class?

Well there are 6 people graduating... and they have Harmon and Reaves. So 4 spots open. The answer to this question seems obvious. After learning from Gar Heard and others, I think OU should go all in on:

Vernon Carey: #1 overall prospect. At 6'10'' 245 he will replace Jamuni... Considering Duke, Kansas, kentucky, Michigan State, North Carolina, Florida, etc. Has offers from every school in the country.

Gonna need some guards/wings with the remaining spots with Calixte, Reynolds, James, and Odomes graduating.

Bryan Antoine: #8 overall prospect. 6'4'' guard. Currently considering Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Florida, etc. He will be a good fit.
Scottie Lewis: #11 overall prospect.. Considering Duke, Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas, etc.

That should handle the guards. Now the team needs a small forward.

Precious Achiuwa: #6 overall prospect. 6'9'' 200... Has offers from every D1 school like the guys above.

Just do that and call it a day. No problem. OU has tons of success doing that. They should chase these guys down all year, and if you happen to lose them to one of their 250 other scholarship offers, then see what else is available for you and try to sign them.

 

[skyvue]

Yes, because that's exactly what "Gar and others" are suggesting.

Misrepresenting the positions of those who don't toe your line doesn't serve your cause.

 

[thebigabd]

Misrepresenting the positions of those who don't toe your line doesn't serve your cause.

My response is based on Gar saying:

1.) Nothing but JUCOs.

2.) Every single thread on ouhoops.com invariably becomes a JUCO vs HS player debate. I went away for Memorial Day weekend and come back and this argument, which ran its course weeks ago, is somehow still going on.

3.) Can we all just agree that we should always recruit as many JUCOs as possible so that there can be some other discussion on this site.

4.) Or, I suggest changing the name of this site to something more accurate, like jucoplayersrule.com or something like that.

I think I misrepresented him as much as he did me. You just happen to agree with his position.

That being said... His post really wasn't abrasive. His overall point earlier in this thread is a solid argument. I don't really see eye-to-eye with him on it, but it is reasonable. I am referring to when he said to him, it comes down to coaches recruiting time. There are hundreds of high school players that can help the team, but not hundreds of juco players. Therefore, it makes sense for the coaches to chase down fish in the bigger pond.

Logically, makes sense. My only counter to it is that practically all the good juco guys were near OU, and not many get recruited until the end of the recruiting season. I could go on, but I think my stance on this is clear.

 

[BCSooners]

Well there are 6 people graduating... and they have Harmon and Reaves. So 4 spots open. The answer to this question seems obvious. After learning from Gar Heard and others, I think OU should go all in on:

Vernon Carey: #1 overall prospect. At 6'10'' 245 he will replace Jamuni... Considering Duke, Kansas, kentucky, Michigan State, North Carolina, Florida, etc. Has offers from every school in the country.

Gonna need some guards/wings with the remaining spots with Calixte, Reynolds, James, and Odomes graduating.

Bryan Antoine: #8 overall prospect. 6'4'' guard. Currently considering Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Florida, etc. He will be a good fit.
Scottie Lewis: #11 overall prospect.. Considering Duke, Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas, etc.

That should handle the guards. Now the team needs a small forward.

Precious Achiuwa: #6 overall prospect. 6'9'' 200... Has offers from every D1 school like the guys above.

Just do that and call it a day. No problem. OU has tons of success doing that. They should chase these guys down all year, and if you happen to lose them to one of their 250 other scholarship offers, then see what else is available for you and try to sign them.

Did we all of the sudden turn in to Duke or Kentucky?

 

[hoopsaustin]

Well there are 6 people graduating... and they have Harmon and Reaves. So 4 spots open. The answer to this question seems obvious. After learning from Gar Heard and others, I think OU should go all in on:

Vernon Carey: #1 overall prospect. At 6'10'' 245 he will replace Jamuni... Considering Duke, Kansas, kentucky, Michigan State, North Carolina, Florida, etc. Has offers from every school in the country.

Gonna need some guards/wings with the remaining spots with Calixte, Reynolds, James, and Odomes graduating.

Bryan Antoine: #8 overall prospect. 6'4'' guard. Currently considering Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Florida, etc. He will be a good fit.
Scottie Lewis: #11 overall prospect.. Considering Duke, Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas, etc.

That should handle the guards. Now the team needs a small forward.

Precious Achiuwa: #6 overall prospect. 6'9'' 200... Has offers from every D1 school like the guys above.

Just do that and call it a day. No problem. OU has tons of success doing that. They should chase these guys down all year, and if you happen to lose them to one of their 250 other scholarship offers, then see what else is available for you and try to sign them.

Wow.. so that's your list of feasible guys for ou to recruit?? Do you see the other schools that are on them? I think your list just disqualified you from the whole discussion on ou recruiting..

I love ou basketball.. but we rarely will get guys rated that highly.... your list is crazy

We typically go after top 50-150 guys and that's what we should do. With open minds to all other players including transfers and occasional jucos..

Your list cements that you think recruiting is like a video game.

And i don't even really know why most are taking you very seriously when you pimped texas tech (occasionally osu) every single year as being the break out team (they never were) and then literally this year you said you were done with pimping them.. lmao :ez-roll:

 

[TINY]

Yes, because that's exactly what "Gar and others" are suggesting.

Misrepresenting the positions of those who don't toe your line doesn't serve your cause.

Gotta love the straw man argument.

 

[Price is Right]

Wow.. so that's your list of feasible guys for ou to recruit?? Do you see the other schools that are on them? I think your list just disqualified you from the whole discussion on ou recruiting..

I love ou basketball.. but we rarely will get guys rated that highly.... your list is crazy

We typically go after top 50-150 guys and that's what we should do. With open minds to all other players including transfers and occasional jucos..

Your list cements that you think recruiting is like a video game.

And i don't even really know why most are taking you very seriously when you pimped texas tech (occasionally osu) every single year as being the break out team (they never were) and then literally this year you said you were done with pimping them.. lmao :ez-roll:

I'm pretty sure his list was trying to make his point with sarcasm... at least that's how the posts read to me.