Obaseki and A&M

[MJSooner]

Yup, you have it all figured out. The only reason anybody would want to play for the guy that recently brought VT to it's first Sweet 16 since 1967 (and second time ever) is the way he dresses.

Everybody has a right to make ignorant statements on this message board, but you're expressing that right a little too freely.

How is it ignorant? Ignorance means lack of knowledge and information. A statement is not "ignorant" simply because it disagrees with your opinion. I guess I am not the one expressing my right to ignorance.

Here are the reasons why people voice complaints about Lon:

• Acts like he DGAF on the sideline. Just claps. Needs more emotion on the sideline.
• Doesn't connect with today's kids or get people excited about the program.
• Can't win conference titles.
• Finishes low in conference standings.
• Only won 60% of his games.
• Standard shouldn't be just getting to the tournament.

Of this list, the last 4 on the list that people rag on Lon about, Williams does not have more success than Kruger. Plus, you tout Williams taking VT to the Sweet 16, yet Lon took OU to the Final Four which Williams has never done in his career. And Lon has a winning record in the NCAA tourney at OU.

Here are the facts, the knowledge, about Buzz. He has career winning % at about .610, barely over .500 in the NCAA, only made it past the sweet 16 once, and despite coaching at different schools and conferences, he has never coached his teams to an outright conference title. All the things people complain about Kruger. Additionally, this is his 3rd stop in the last 7 years.

The only two that one can say Williams might be better than Lon are the top two on the list, which is what I closed with in the first post that prompted your reaction. Lon may not be the perfect coach, but he is good for our program. Buzz is revered like the second coming of John Wooden or Coach K and the reality is his record does not make him explicitly better than Kruger.

 

[CoachTalk]

I dont want a yeller on the sidelines.

Ill take a winning coach and Lon is better at that than buzzy.

How does Lon not connect? Kids love lon and he lets them play and now thats a down fall.

 

[Eielson]

How is it ignorant? Ignorance means lack of knowledge and information. A statement is not "ignorant" simply because it disagrees with your opinion. I guess I am not the one expressing my right to ignorance.

It's not that you disagreed with me -- it's that nearly everything you said was misguided or flat-out wrong.

Didn't produce NBA talent? He put two guys in the NBA at a program that hadn't produced any NBA talent since 1991 (VT). At Marquette he put 5 guys in the NBA despite none of them being top 100 out of HS. Jimmy Butler was a JUCO. I think Buzz might have been the only person to offer Jae Crowder (may be wrong).

Doesn't stay in one place? Do you know anything about Lon Kruger?

Doesn't win conference titles? You really expected somebody to come in and start winning conference titles against UNC/Duke at a program like VT? He went to three straight NCAA tournaments at a school that had only been to one NCAA tournament since 1996.

It's also incredibly misleading to compare Williams' 5th place conference finishes in a 16 team conference to Lon's in a 10 team conference. There's also the fact that Buzz took that Marquette job at age 35.

 

[mict085]

Yes, it is fine considering our level of fan support and investment. You want to compete with duke and Kentucky? Then you better start dumping stacks into the program and unleash our bagmen, too.

That’s exactly what we should do. At one point, we did compete directly with Kansas for conference supremacy. We recruited very well, enough to compete with top 10 teams. We absolutely should do whatever it takes to recruit elite talent, if that means bagmen, then do it. We need to get in the game.

There was a time when OU competed for conference titles and was a formidable team consistently. Now, it seems we’ve settled into being content with just making the tourney. Lon is a great guy but he’s getting older and recruiting has sucked for 4 years. Recruiting is sucking right now and it doesn’t look to be changing anytime soon. There is no ****ing way LSU should be out recruiting us in basketball. Ever.

If we’re not going to put bagmen to work, then we need a coach who can recruit better talent in other ways. We need better results. Period.

 

[Eielson]

Curious why?

Buzz been to elite 8 1 time

Couple sweet 16’s

Best finish was 5th in ACC, 6th in SEC, 2 good years in Big East (T-1, 2nd) followed by a 6th (Lon gets killed for that)

Lon is 20 years older than Buzz, so of course he's going to have more wins, etc.

Lon has had success in a lot of places, but he's never had sustained success anywhere. At OU was the first time he ever went to back-to-back Sweet 16s. Buzz went to three straight by the time he was 40. Finishing top 5/6 in that BEAST was about the equivalent of finishing 3rd in a 10 team conference. Buzz has only ever had one losing season in conference, and that was his first year at VTech, so I'm not sure why you guys are trying to act like he's bad in conference play.

 

[Stikboy]

That’s exactly what we should do. At one point, we did compete directly with Kansas for conference supremacy. We recruited very well, enough to compete with top 10 teams. We absolutely should do whatever it takes to recruit elite talent, if that means bagmen, then do it. We need to get in the game.

There was a time when OU competed for conference titles and was a formidable team consistently. Now, it seems we’ve settled into being content with just making the tourney. Lon is a great guy but he’s getting older and recruiting has sucked for 4 years. Recruiting is sucking right now and it doesn’t look to be changing anytime soon. There is no ****ing way LSU should be out recruiting us in basketball. Ever.

If we’re not going to put bagmen to work, then we need a coach who can recruit better talent in other ways. We need better results. Period.

Golf clap.

 

[Eielson]

Buzz is revered like the second coming of John Wooden or Coach K and the reality is his record does not make him explicitly better than Kruger.

Nobody has ever compared Buzz to Wooden or Coach K -- you're just making stuff up at this point.

Buzz and Sampson get brought up a lot because they both have Oklahoma ties, and they've both been far more successful than Lon since Buddy left.

 

[MJSooner]

It's not that you disagreed with me -- it's that nearly everything you said was misguided or flat-out wrong.

Didn't produce NBA talent? He put two guys in the NBA at a program that hadn't produced any NBA talent since 1991 (VT). At Marquette he put 5 guys in the NBA despite none of them being top 100 out of HS. Jimmy Butler was a JUCO. I think Buzz might have been the only person to offer Jae Crowder (may be wrong).

Doesn't stay in one place? Do you know anything about Lon Kruger?

Doesn't win conference titles? You really expected somebody to come in and start winning conference titles against UNC/Duke at a program like VT? He went to three straight NCAA tournaments at a school that had only been to one NCAA tournament since 1996.

It's also incredibly misleading to compare Williams' 5th place conference finishes in a 16 team conference to Lon's in a 10 team conference. There's also the fact that Buzz took that Marquette job at age 35.

Nope, I believe my points were fact-based. Is it possible you are misguided or flat-out wrong?

• I stated Buzz didn't "recruit and produce a ton more NBA players than Lon" at OU. Who are the 5 guys Buzz RECRUITED and sent to the NBA at Marquette? Who are the 2 at VT? I only know of Crowder and Jimmy Butler at Marquette and Dorian Finney Smith at VT. Key terms- recruited and played in the NBA. One better than Lon is not substantially better.
• I never made the case Lon hasn't moved in his career, but he is now at OU, probably until retirement. He finished his 9th year here. Williams is at his 3rd school in that time frame. If he came here, odds are he would be gone within 4-5 years.
• Conference titles- you really expect Kruger to come in to win championships against a school like KU? And before you say yes, remember that OU only won one since 1989 and 6 since the Korean War started. If Buzz isn't expected to compete in the ACC why should Lon be held to a higher standard than 5 of the 6 coaches that had winning records since Bruce Drake.
• Conference finish- It is not misleading to compare Kruger's finish in the Big12 to the ACC. The Big12 is consistently a tougher conference than the ACC. Since Lon has been coach at OU, the Big12 ranked as the tougher conference of the two 8 of the 9 times (finished one slot below once) and was ranked the toughest conference 4 of those years.

Based on those facts, my points are valid, not flat-out wrong. Your opinion is different than mine, but it doesn't make my points wrong or the facts misguided. Facts are facts.

I am not denying that Williams is a good coach. But there is nothing in his record to support that he is dramatically better than Kruger. Some of the people on this board act like he is THE guy, like Self, Jay Wright, Mark Few or Tom Izzo at 47. NOTHING in his record supports that. And that is a fact.

 

[CoachTalk]

Time for Eielson to put his phone on the fridge. Bedtime

 

[MJSooner]

Nobody has ever compared Buzz to Wooden or Coach K -- you're just making stuff up at this point.

Buzz and Sampson get brought up a lot because they both have Oklahoma ties, and they've both been far more successful than Lon since Buddy left.

I didn't say anyone compared Buzz to Wooden. I said he is revered like it. Revered means a deep admiration, not a comparison.

And is a 7th place finish in conference, a 7th place finish 5th place finish, and a 6th place finish with 2 first-round losses, a sweet 16, and no tournament "far more successful" than OU since Buddy left?

 

[BCSooners]

I really think this past years freshmen class will be the class LK retires with, just a gut feeling. I think he’s getting negatively recruited against because other coaches are saying he’ll retire. I remember LK telling Harmon he’d be at OU the entire time he was there. I think he’ll be taking a few more transfers & grad transfers in the meantime.

This is just my guess though.

 

[MJSooner]

That’s exactly what we should do. At one point, we did compete directly with Kansas for conference supremacy. We recruited very well, enough to compete with top 10 teams. We absolutely should do whatever it takes to recruit elite talent, if that means bagmen, then do it. We need to get in the game.

There was a time when OU competed for conference titles and was a formidable team consistently.

If competing directly with Kansas for conference supremacy means consistently finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th in the league, then yes, you are correct. We did use to do that. But we've only won one league title, in 2005, since 1989 and we shared that. With guess who, Kansas.

As far as recruiting elite talent, you said we need to do it, whatever it takes. Well, the last two coaches that tried that to get top 50 players more than on occasion, did get them. And both got us put on probation.

 

[mict085]

If competing directly with Kansas for conference supremacy means consistently finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th in the league, then yes, you are correct. We did use to do that. But we've only won one league title, in 2005, since 1989 and we shared that. With guess who, Kansas.

As far as recruiting elite talent, you said we need to do it, whatever it takes. Well, the last two coaches that tried that to get top 50 players more than on occasion, did get them. And both got us put on probation.

Yeah, because our compliance dept are freaking ridiculous. We need to get on par with everyone else that’s finding success in college athletics and stop self reporting and being overzealous with compliance. We need to align the AD and get on the same page throughout the dept. get the best players, however possible. Just like the SEC. If we’d quit trying to tattle on ourselves for all the BS minor crap and get compliance out of the way, We would be fine. The NCAA is impotent. We need to stop turning ourselves in, and just get the most talent on campus and let the coaches coach.

 

[mict085]

If competing directly with Kansas for conference supremacy means consistently finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th in the league, then yes, you are correct. We did use to do that. But we've only won one league title, in 2005, since 1989 and we shared that. With guess who, Kansas.

As far as recruiting elite talent, you said we need to do it, whatever it takes. Well, the last two coaches that tried that to get top 50 players more than on occasion, did get them. And both got us put on probation.

We competed for and won conference titles in the 80’s. We competed for conference titles and yes, finished 2nd or 3rd in the 90’s. The 2000’s were the same but when Sampson left, we started to fall hard. The 2010’s have been mostly down except for 1-2 seasons. We can do better than what we currently are doing.

 

[Eielson]

I stated Buzz didn't "recruit and produce a ton more NBA players than Lon" at OU. Who are the 5 guys Buzz RECRUITED and sent to the NBA at Marquette? Who are the 2 at VT? I only know of Crowder and Jimmy Butler at Marquette and Dorian Finney Smith at VT. Key terms- recruited and played in the NBA. One better than Lon is not substantially better.

There are more, and I'm not going to dig into every one. He's developed and recruited plenty of NBA talent for the positions he's held.

Conference titles- you really expect Kruger to come in to win championships against a school like KU?

Nobody is criticizing Lon for losing to Kansas. We just had a three year stretch where we were the absolute worst team in conference (maybe 4 years?) -- even worse than the dumpster fire in Stillwater. There were 8 teams between us and KU.

Conference finish- It is not misleading to compare Kruger's finish in the Big12 to the ACC.

Yes, it is. As I've said multiple times, VT had only been to one NCAA tournament since 1996 when Buzz arrived. He went to three straight NCAA tournaments before he left. Also, I said it was misleading to compare a 10-team conference finish to a 16-team conference finish. Please at least try to respond appropriately.

I am not denying that Williams is a good coach. But there is nothing in his record to support that he is dramatically better than Kruger. Some of the people on this board act like he is THE guy, like Self, Jay Wright, Mark Few or Tom Izzo at 47. NOTHING in his record supports that. And that is a fact.

Again -- you're making stuff up. Nobody on here thinks Buzz is better than those guys. But unlike Jay Wright and Mark Few, we actually would have been able to hire a guy like Buzz if Joe C broke out the checkbook.

 

[WaymanFan]

Lon's a Hall-of-Fame caliber coach, but let's tell it like it is. Buzz has been kicking his @ss on the recruiting trail. Lon needs to start winning some battles ASAP.

 

[MJSooner]

There are more, and I'm not going to dig into every one. He's developed and recruited plenty of NBA talent for the positions he's held.



Nobody is criticizing Lon for losing to Kansas. We just had a three year stretch where we were the absolute worst team in conference (maybe 4 years?) -- even worse than the dumpster fire in Stillwater. There were 8 teams between us and KU.



Yes, it is. As I've said multiple times, VT had only been to one NCAA tournament since 1996 when Buzz arrived. He went to three straight NCAA tournaments before he left. Also, I said it was misleading to compare a 10-team conference finish to a 16-team conference finish. Please at least try to respond appropriately.



Again -- you're making stuff up. Nobody on here thinks Buzz is better than those guys. But unlike Jay Wright and Mark Few, we actually would have been able to hire a guy like Buzz if Joe C broke out the checkbook.

I didn't make anything up. I did respond appropriately, with facts. Let me see what facts your hyperbole is based upon:

• What four years were we the "absolute worst team" in the conference? Better yet, how about just one year? I can answer, based on fact and not hyperbole. The answer is never. We have never been "the absolute worst" in the conference, as that would be last in the conference.
• The Big 12 is a tougher conference than the ACC so finishing higher in a weaker conference doesn't signify a better team. Louisiana Tech finished tied for 3rd in Conf USA in football, with 14 teams and won 10 games; Baylor finished second in the Big 12. By your logic, the finish by LaTech is more respectable than what Baylor did because they have more teams. This is an extreme comparison and sounds ridiculous, but so does the argument that the power ranking of a conference means less than the number of teams a conference has or what a team did 50 years ago.
• It appears you made something up by saying Buzz has recruited guys and put them in the NBA. You claim there were 7, and now maybe more as there are "plenty". If this is clearly a strength of Buzz over Lon, it should be easy to name them.

Lon hasn't been perfect and I have been disappointed we are not competing at an even higher level. But that doesn't mean change just to change is necessary and will make it better. Does Shaka Smart, Mike Davis, Sean Sutton, Mike Anderson, and Steve Alford ring a bell? These are all coaches that took over for HOF coaches that were pushed out, and end up failing to the point they were fired (Smart pending).

Again, I don't get the lovefest for Buzz Williams. And I didn't say Buzz wasn't a good coach. Let me repeat Buzz is a good coach. But if I am looking to get rid of a guy we have and "broke out the checkbook", I want to get a guy that justifies it and is better than the guy in the seat. If I am going to force out a HOF coach and break the bank, it needs to be for someone that has a track record and proven success to warrant it. Buzz Williams is not that guy.

 

[Eielson]

I didn't make anything up. I did respond appropriately, with facts. Let me see what facts your hyperbole is based upon:

What four years were we the "absolute worst team" in the conference? Better yet, how about just one year? I can answer, based on fact and not hyperbole. The answer is never. We have never been "the absolute worst" in the conference, as that would be last in the conference.

Over the past 4 seasons (2016-2020), we have gone 29-43. Find me a team that did worse in conference. I'll wait.

The Big 12 is a tougher conference than the ACC so finishing higher in a weaker conference doesn't signify a better team. Louisiana Tech finished tied for 3rd in Conf USA in football, with 14 teams and won 10 games; Baylor finished second in the Big 12. By your logic, the finish by LaTech is more respectable than what Baylor did because they have more teams. This is an extreme comparison and sounds ridiculous, but so does the argument that the power ranking of a conference means less than the number of teams a conference has or what a team did 50 years ago.

Again...wasn't talking about ACC standings, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. I said that taking VT to 3 straight NCAA tournaments (after only one appearance since 1996) is a big achievement. I'm lost as to why you're talking about Baylor and LaTech football. I will agree with one thing -- you do sound ridiculous.

It appears you made something up by saying Buzz has recruited guys and put them in the NBA. You claim there were 7, and now maybe more as there are "plenty". If this is clearly a strength of Buzz over Lon, it should be easy to name them.

Yes, it would be incredibly easy to name the NBA players with a quick google search -- I'm not sure why you haven't done it yourself if you're so interested. At Marquette - Wesley Matthews, Lazar Haywood, Jimmy Butler, Darius Johnson-Odom, Dwight Buycks, Jae Crowder, Jerrell McNeal, Vander Blue. At VT you left off Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Erick Green, Malcolm Delaney, Jarrell Eddie, Justin Robinson, and possibly Blackshear as well.

Lon hasn't been perfect and I have been disappointed we are not competing at an even higher level. But that doesn't mean change just to change is necessary and will make it better. Does Shaka Smart, Mike Davis, Sean Sutton, Mike Anderson, and Steve Alford ring a bell? These are all coaches that took over for HOF coaches that were pushed out, and end up failing to the point they were fired (Smart pending).

You realize Shaka and Lon have the same conference record over the past 4 years, right? Yet you are saying he failed, and implying that he should be fired...

Again, I don't get the lovefest for Buzz Williams. And I didn't say Buzz wasn't a good coach. Let me repeat Buzz is a good coach. But if I am looking to get rid of a guy we have and "broke out the checkbook", I want to get a guy that justifies it and is better than the guy in the seat. If I am going to force out a HOF coach and break the bank, it needs to be for someone that has a track record and proven success to warrant it. Buzz Williams is not that guy.

When I say "break out the checkbook," I don't mean the kinda deals guys like Calipari and K are getting. I mean within our reasonable budget. I'd love to hear a long list of names of people better than Buzz that we could realistically get for 3-4M range.

 

[MJSooner]

Over the past 4 seasons (2016-2020), we have gone 29-43. Find me a team that did worse in conference. I'll wait.



Again...wasn't talking about ACC standings, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. I said that taking VT to 3 straight NCAA tournaments (after only one appearance since 1996) is a big achievement. I'm lost as to why you're talking about Baylor and LaTech football. I will agree with one thing -- you do sound ridiculous.



Yes, it would be incredibly easy to name the NBA players with a quick google search -- I'm not sure why you haven't done it yourself if you're so interested. At Marquette - Wesley Matthews, Lazar Haywood, Jimmy Butler, Darius Johnson-Odom, Dwight Buycks, Jae Crowder, Jerrell McNeal, Vander Blue. At VT you left off Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Erick Green, Malcolm Delaney, Jarrell Eddie, Justin Robinson, and possibly Blackshear as well.



You realize Shaka and Lon have the same conference record over the past 4 years, right? Yet you are saying he failed, and implying that he should be fired...



When I say "break out the checkbook," I don't mean the kinda deals guys like Calipari and K are getting. I mean within our reasonable budget. I'd love to hear a long list of names of people better than Buzz that we could realistically get for 3-4M range.

• You said "absolute worst in the conference", which would mean no one did worse, and we were clearly the worst or "absolute". First, you didn't specify for a cumulative period vs. year by year, but since you did, there were three other teams that also went 29-43 and one that went 30-42. One of those teams was OSU, which we were not "worse" than, which you stated we were. I am not happy with that record, but it is complete hyperbole to say we were the absolute worst team.
• Since you said it is an easy Google search to see who played in the NBA, how many of those players did Buzz RECRUIT as HC and send to the NBA. I have listed that in every single post. He only recruited Crowder and Butler at Marquette. Those other guys were recruited by Crean. Plus, it is hard to credit him for a guy that has played in 10-15 games in the NBA in his career. If that was the case, OU should start claim Willie Warren, Jeff Webster, Skeeter Henry, and Taylor Griffin as former NBA stars. THey did "play" in the NBA but less than 1/2 season between all 4. No real OU Hoops fan would say they "made" it in the NBA.
• I keep bringing up the conference standings as you were the one to introduce that as a validation of Buzz vs. Lon. You stated "Finishing top 5/6 in that BEAST was about the equivalent of finishing 3rd in a 10 team conference." That "beast of a conference has finished below the Big 12 in power rankings 8 of 9 of Kruger's years.
• You completely missed the point by bringing up Shaka compared to Lon. I listed 5 coaches that were hired to replace HOF coaches that were squeezed out. None of them performed to expectations to improve what was there before. You single Shaka out of that list and pick out 4 years of Lon's 9 years to say I made your point. Actually, you made mine. Hiring a younger hot coach that is animated on the sidelines and recruits well to replace a HOF coach does not automatically mean they are better.
• I am not going to list any coaches we could get that is better than Buzz for $3-4MM for two reasons. One, we couldn't hire Buzz for $3-4 million. He makes $4.05 million at A&M. It would take more to get him. Second, I won't list the coaches because I am content with the one we have.

We disagree obviously on the Buzz vs. Lon debate. But too many, including you, will say how bad Lon is and how great Buzz is and the reality is there is not much separation in their track record and results.

My guess if you put the accomplishments on paper since 2008 when Buzz took over Marquette, and left the names and schools off the list, it would be tough to name which coach was which for most, other than OU and Buzz Williams fans. The data is almost identical.

We need to do better the next 3-4 years than the last 3-4 years. But the answer isn't squeezing out Lon and hiring Buzz Williams to do it, which seems to be the wish.

 

[Max Power]

Conference records last 4 years

Kansas 55-17
Baylor 45-27
Tech 40-32
K State 38-34
WVU 36-36
ISU 30-42
OU 29-43
osu 29-43
TCU 29-43
texas 29-43

If you include conference tournament games

Kansas 60-19
Baylor 45-30
WVU 42-39
K State 41-37
Tech 41-35
ISU 36-43
TCU 32-46
texas 31-46
osu 30-46
OU 29-46

So yea we have been the worst team in big 12 competition in the last 4 years. But Buzz is NOT the answer