Obaseki and A&M

[Eielson]

• You said "absolute worst in the conference", which would mean no one did worse, and we were clearly the worst or "absolute". First, you didn't specify for a cumulative period vs. year by year, but since you did, there were three other teams that also went 29-43 and one that went 30-42. One of those teams was OSU, which we were not "worse" than, which you stated we were. I am not happy with that record, but it is complete hyperbole to say we were the absolute worst team.

• 
  
  This point right here pretty well sums up how weak your arguments are. There are arguments that can be made for Lon, but you do not seem capable of it.

 

[MJSooner]

This point right here pretty well sums up how weak your arguments are. There are arguments that can be made for Lon, but you do not seem capable of it.

I love how you pick out a select group of words out of my entire post to validate your idea of how my argument is weak, yet ignore the rest. Classic use of the term out of context. I also do not argue based on hyperbole or overstated data.

I never once argued that Lon should be kept based on his Big12 record. Copy and quote my point where I did say that. The only time I defended Lon's conference record is where I compared his conference finishes compared to Buzz, based on your point. But I never said, "yea, Lon is a great coach for us, just look at his conference record the last four years". Accusing me of such is inaccurate and unjust. I was simply pointing out the untruthfulness of your exaggerated comment that we were the "absolute worst team in the conference". The records, and facts, show that this is not the case.

The fact is Buzz Williams record and accomplishments since 2008 are not too dissimilar to Lon Kruger's. Conference titles, winning percentage, conference finishes, NCAA appearances, recruiting players that play in the NBA, number of schools coached, and tournament record. That is based on data, not hyperbole or exaggerations.

We obviously disagree on the "can Kruger and get Williams" wish list mentality. And there is nothing wrong with disagreements. I have no problem to continue discussing and debating the issue with you or anyone else as long as it is a fact-based civil discussion, not one full of hyperbole and potshots. But since you do not seem capable of that on this subject, I am ready to move on.

 

[Eielson]

I love how you pick out a select group of words out of my entire post to validate your idea of how my argument is weak, yet ignore the rest. Classic use of the term out of context. I also do not argue based on hyperbole or overstated data.

I never once argued that Lon should be kept based on his Big12 record. Copy and quote my point where I did say that. The only time I defended Lon's conference record is where I compared his conference finishes compared to Buzz, based on your point. But I never said, "yea, Lon is a great coach for us, just look at his conference record the last four years". Accusing me of such is inaccurate and unjust. I was simply pointing out the untruthfulness of your exaggerated comment that we were the "absolute worst team in the conference". The records, and facts, show that this is not the case.

The fact is Buzz Williams record and accomplishments since 2008 are not too dissimilar to Lon Kruger's. Conference titles, winning percentage, conference finishes, NCAA appearances, recruiting players that play in the NBA, number of schools coached, and tournament record. That is based on data, not hyperbole or exaggerations.

We obviously disagree on the "can Kruger and get Williams" wish list mentality. And there is nothing wrong with disagreements. I have no problem to continue discussing and debating the issue with you or anyone else as long as it is a fact-based civil discussion, not one full of hyperbole and potshots. But since you do not seem capable of that on this subject, I am ready to move on.

Where have I used hyperbole? The fact that you're still obsessing over the use of "absolute worst" instead of just "worst" is comical to me -- especially since Max Power pointed out that we literally are the "absolute worst" over the past 4 years. You should brush up on what the term "hyperbole" means if you're going to use it so often. It's especially comical considering that those other programs tied with us over the past 4 years want their coaches replaced as well.

 

[BCSooners]

Where have I used hyperbole? The fact that you're still obsessing over the use of "absolute worst" instead of just "worst" is comical to me -- especially since Max Power pointed out that we literally are the "absolute worst" over the past 4 years. You should brush up on what the term "hyperbole" means if you're going to use it so often. It's especially comical considering that those other programs tied with us over the past 4 years want their coaches replaced as well.

Would they be if they took their team to the tournament 7 of the last 9 years, including last 3?

 

[CoachTalk]

Why does only Conf count? Our non conf has been in the top 20 for the last 4-5 years if I remember correctly.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Why does only Conf count? Our non conf has been in the top 20 for the last 4-5 years if I remember correctly.

Because that doesn’t support their narrative. Plus, some people legitimately don’t seem to understand that noncon really does matter even bit as much in college basketball these days. Or perhaps more accurately, they don’t think it should matter as much and choose to ignore it for that reason.

 

[Eielson]

Why does only Conf count? Our non conf has been in the top 20 for the last 4-5 years if I remember correctly.

It's not all that counts. It's just what MJS keeps harping on.

 

[Eielson]

Would they be if they took their team to the tournament 7 of the last 9 years, including last 3?

OSU probably wouldn't. UT recently fired a better/more successful coach.

 

[Speedy17]

Nobody has ever compared Buzz to Wooden or Coach K -- you're just making stuff up at this point.

Buzz and Sampson get brought up a lot because they both have Oklahoma ties, and they've both been far more successful than Lon since Buddy left.

When was Buzz ever in the Final Four? The answer is that he has never been. He is 258-160 overall with 8 NCAA appearances in going 10-8 in 13 years. Lon Kruger, on the other hand, has 6 NCAA appearances in 9 years at OU with going to the Final Four in 2015. Lon put that Final Four team together. Don't forget he inherited a mess.

If you go back the last 3 years: Lon 59-39 - 2 NCAA; Buzz - 63-35 - 2 NCAA; and it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz - 2 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

If you go back 4 years: Lon 70-59 - 2 NCAA; Buzz 85-46 3 NCAA; it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz 3 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

If you go back 5 years (You can't take the Buddy years away from Lon):
Lon 99-67 3 NCAA and Buzz 96-68 3 NCAA; it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz 3 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

I would take Lon over Buzz any day of the week. Lest we also forget, that Lon was brought in to clean up the Program from NCAA troubles (oops, this gives us Kelvin and Capel) which we do not have to worry about now.

 

[MJSooner]

When was Buzz ever in the Final Four? The answer is that he has never been. He is 258-160 overall with 8 NCAA appearances in going 10-8 in 13 years. Lon Kruger, on the other hand, has 6 NCAA appearances in 9 years at OU with going to the Final Four in 2015. Lon put that Final Four team together. Don't forget he inherited a mess.

If you go back the last 3 years: Lon 59-39 - 2 NCAA; Buzz - 63-35 - 2 NCAA; and it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz - 2 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

If you go back 4 years: Lon 70-59 - 2 NCAA; Buzz 3 NCAA; it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz 3 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

If you go back 5 years (You can't take the Buddy years away from Lon):
Lon 99-67 3 NCAA and Buzz 96-68 3 NCAA; it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz 3 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

I would take Lon over Buzz any day of the week. Lest we also forget, that Lon was brought in to clean up the Program from NCAA troubles (oops, this gives us Kelvin and Capel) which we do not have to worry about now.

Speedy, thanks for laying out more facts just as I have to make the case. As I have now stated 4 times in this thread, Buzz's record does not prove he is better than Lon.

 

[Eielson]

When was Buzz ever in the Final Four? The answer is that he has never been. He is 258-160 overall with 8 NCAA appearances in going 10-8 in 13 years. Lon Kruger, on the other hand, has 6 NCAA appearances in 9 years at OU with going to the Final Four in 2015. Lon put that Final Four team together. Don't forget he inherited a mess.

If you go back the last 3 years: Lon 59-39 - 2 NCAA; Buzz - 63-35 - 2 NCAA; and it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz - 2 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

If you go back 4 years: Lon 70-59 - 2 NCAA; Buzz 3 NCAA; it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz 3 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

If you go back 5 years (You can't take the Buddy years away from Lon):
Lon 99-67 3 NCAA and Buzz 96-68 3 NCAA; it would have been Lon 3 NCAA and Buzz 3 NCAA if the tournament had happened.

I would take Lon over Buzz any day of the week. Lest we also forget, that Lon was brought in to clean up the Program from NCAA troubles (oops, this gives us Kelvin and Capel) which we do not have to worry about now.

Again - Buzz was coaching at Virginia Tech. It's absurd to compare VT to OU. Before Buzz took over VT, they'd been to the NCAA tournament twice since 1986. He took them there three years in a row. If you want to make an argument for Lon overall, fine...but we all should be able to agree that Buzz has been better over the past 4 years. It's not even close.

 

[MJSooner]

It's not all that counts. It's just what MJS keeps harping on.

Nope, you bring up a point that is exaggerated and I point out it is not factual. I love how you manipulate small snippets of my entire post to support your case or potshots.

You have not once disputed these facts:

• Lon and Buzz have an almost equal career winning percentage.
• Neither has won an outright conference championship (Buzz tied for 1st once)
• NCAA tournament record winning percentage since Lon has been at OU vs. Buzz overall almost identical.
• Lon has gone deeper into the tourney and one more appearance than Buzz since Lon has been at OU.
• Buzz has missed the tournament 3 times since Lon has been at OU. OU has missed twice.
• Buzz has finished above 4th in the conference twice since Lon has been at OU and finished as low as 15th out of 16. Lon has finished 4th or higher 5 times at OU in the conference
• Buzz has an equal amount of losing seasons since 2012 as Lon.
• Lon has won about the same as Buzz since 2012, 179-117 vs. 186-115.
• As Speedy pointed out last 3, and 5 years are almost identical.

So back to my first post, remind me FACTUALLY and based on RECORDS why Buzz Williams is better than Lon and should replace him if possible.

 

[MJSooner]

. If you want to make an argument for Lon overall, fine...but we all should be able to agree that Buzz has been better over the past 4 years. It's not even close.

It's hilarious that you pick 4 years and not 3 years and 5 years, or the nine years since Lon has been at OU. That is the only time period that fits your narrative as it includes Lon's worst season.

Here are the numbers on winning %. Lon listed first, Buzz second.
3 years- 59% to 62%
5 years- 59% to 63%
9 years- .611% to .617%

Back to more hyperbole on your part. It is close.

 

[Eielson]

Nope, you bring up a point that is exaggerated and I point out it is not factual. I love how you manipulate small snippets of my entire post to support your case or potshots.

You have not once disputed these facts:

• Lon and Buzz have an almost equal career winning percentage.
• Neither has won an outright conference championship (Buzz tied for 1st once)
• NCAA tournament record winning percentage since Lon has been at OU vs. Buzz overall almost identical.
• Lon has gone deeper into the tourney and one more appearance than Buzz since Lon has been at OU.
• Buzz has missed the tournament 3 times since Lon has been at OU. OU has missed twice.
• Buzz has finished above 4th twice since Lon has been at OU and finished as low as 15th out of 16. Lon has finished 4th or higher 5 times at OU.
• Buzz has equal amount of losing seasons since 2012 as Lon.
• Lon has won about the same as Buzz since 2012, 179-117 vs. 186-115.
• As Speedy pointed out last 3, 4, and 5 years are almost identical.

So back to my first post, remind me FACTUALLY and based on RECORDS why Buzz Williams is better than Lon and should replace him if possible.

I've addressed nearly every one of those points already, so I'm just going to redirect you to my previous posts.

 

[Eielson]

It's hilarious that you pick 4 years and not 3 years and 5 years, or the nine years since Lon has been at OU.

You have 4 years of eligibility in the NCAA, so no it's not. It's a very rational number.

 

[MJSooner]

I've addressed nearly every one of those points already, so I'm just going to redirect you to my previous posts.

So once again, you have not disputed the facts. See my previous posts.

 

[MJSooner]

You have 4 years of eligibility in the NCAA, so no it's not. It's a very rational number.

OMG, that makes no sense. A coach's record is never judged incrementally on his 4-year classes.

The reason you picked it vs. 3, 5 or 9 is it is the only time frame that fits your narrative that Buzz is better than Lon and "it's not even close".

 

[skyvue]

OMG, that makes no sense. A coach's record is never judged incrementally on his 4-year classes.

The reason you picked it vs. 3, 5 or 9 is it is the only time frame that fits your narrative that Buzz is better than Lon and "it's not even close".

Those four seasons have been the object of intense focus among certain posters (but only conference play, of course).

And then when we finish in the top half of the conference -- even earn the three seed to the conference tourney -- they pretend it didn't happen and continue to grind their teeth, rend their garments, and cherry-pick stats to fit their agenda.

 

[Eielson]

And then when we finish in the top half of the conference -- even earn the three seed to the conference tourney -- they pretend it didn't happen and continue to grind their teeth, rend their garments, and cherry-pick stats to fit their agenda.

The fact that you feel an 18 win season is an adequate climax for a 4-year stretch is disturbing.

 

[WTSooner]

Conference records last 4 years

Kansas 55-17
Baylor 45-27
Tech 40-32
K State 38-34
WVU 36-36
ISU 30-42
OU 29-43
osu 29-43
TCU 29-43
texas 29-43

If you include conference tournament games

Kansas 60-19
Baylor 45-30
WVU 42-39
K State 41-37
Tech 41-35
ISU 36-43
TCU 32-46
texas 31-46
osu 30-46
OU 29-46

So yea we have been the worst team in big 12 competition in the last 4 years.

Pretty telling numbers.