<<<OU v. OSU All-Time (a comparison)>>>

[DeaconBoomer]

Counting down the most prestigious programs since 1984-85Comment Email Print Share By Harold Shelton, Nick Loucks and Chris Fallica
ESPN Research.

How do you rank the best programs in the modern era of college basketball?



It's not easy, but this summer, we decided to tackle the hundreds of Division I men's college basketball teams, weighing the thousands of regular-season and postseason wins and losses, the NBA draft picks, the All-Americans and the national titles to come up with a numerical point system to provide unbiased rankings of every college hoops program's success since the start of the 1984-85 season, the season when the NCAA tournament expanded to 64 teams.



We let the numbers do the talking by assigning the following point values for certain successes and failures.



• National title … 25
• Title game loss … 20
• National semifinal loss … 15
• Elite Eight loss … 10
• Best W-L record in conference's regular season … 5
• 30-plus wins in a season … 5
• Sweet 16 loss … 5
• Conference tournament title … 3
• AP first-team All-American … 3
• Losing in NCAA second round … 3
• Player in Top 10 of NBA draft … 2
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16 seed … 2
• NIT title … 2
• AP second-team All-American … 2
• 20-29 wins in a season … 1
• NCAA tournament berth … 1
• Postseason NIT berth … 1
• AP third-team All-American … 1
• NCAA first-round loss to a 12-16 seed … -2
• Losing season … -3
• Ban from NCAA tournament … -3
>> Minimum 15 seasons in Division I
** Ties are broken by overall winning percentage since the 1984-85 season
^^ Teams are listed with their current conferences
!! In conferences without postseason tournament champions, the points were awarded to the regular-season champ.



So far, we've unveiled Nos. 21-50.



Now we continue the countdown to No. 1.



20. TEMPLE OWLS, Atlantic 10
Positives: 13 conference titles (6 regular-season, 7 tourney); 15 20-win seasons; 17 NCAA berths; 5 Elite Eights; 6 NITs
Negatives: 1 losing season; 0 first team All-Americans; 0 Final Fours
Total points: 179
Did you know? The 2007-08 season was the first 20-win season for Temple since the 2000-01 season, but the Owls have been respectable in that downturn, falling under .500 just once (2006-07). The Owls have five Elite Eight appearances since 1985, a tally that helps them fly up the charts, but we'd be remiss not to mention that they are 0-5 in those chances to reach the Final Four.



19. CINCINNATI BEARCATS, Big East
Positives: 18 conference titles (10 regular-season; 8 tourney); 15 20-win seasons; 14 NCAA berths; 1992 Final Four; 3 first-team All-Americans
Negatives: 5 losing seasons, the most of any team in the Top 20; 1 NCAA sanction
Total points: 180
Did you know? Before Bob Huggins' arrival in 1989, the Bearcats were dreadful. In 16 seasons under Huggins, they were a 20-win team 14 times and made the Final Four in his third season on campus. Now, Cincinnati is considered an elite program despite the recent struggles as it has transitioned to the Big East.



18. TEXAS LONGHORNS, Big 12
Positives: 16 20-win seasons; 2 30-win seasons; 18 NCAA berths; 4 Elite Eights; 4 first-team All-Americans; 5 NBA top-10 picks
Negatives: 3 losing seasons; just 2 conference tourney titles, the fewest of any team in the Top 20
Total points: 186
Did you know? The arrival of Tom Penders in 1988 turned around a program that was mediocre for a decade. The run under Rick Barnes this decade (seven 20-win campaigns, two 30-win seasons and 10 straight NCAA tourney appearances, including the 2003 Final Four) puts the Longhorns in the Top 20.



17. XAVIER MUSKETEERS, Atlantic 10
Positives: 21 conference titles (12 regular-season, 9 tourney); 19 20-win seasons; 17 NCAA berths; win over No. 4-seeded Missouri in 1987, win over No. 3-seeded Nebraska in 1991
Negatives: 1 losing season; 3 All-Americans and 2 NBA top-10 picks; 15 NCAA tourney wins, the fewest of any team in the Top 25
Total points: 187
Did you know? Xavier is the highest-ranked school without a Final Four appearance. The Musketeers have made the postseason in 20 of 24 seasons, including two Elite Eight appearances. They had the best record in their conference 12 times, which certainly helped their profile.



16. LOUISVILLE CARDINALS, Big East
Positives: 16 conference titles (7 regular-season; 9 tourney); 2 30-win seasons; 17 NCAA berths; 9 Sweet 16s; 1986 national championship
Negatives: 3 losing seasons; 1 first-team All-American; 14 20-win seasons is tied for the fewest of the teams in the Top 20
Total points: 204
Did you know? Louisville would have been at least 14th on this list if it had been able to upset North Carolina in that Elite Eight game this past March. A five-year span between the 1997-98 and 2001-02 seasons is the only stretch of mediocrity for a program that has been consistently good. The Cardinals are last among the three schools tied with 204 points because of the lowest combined winning percentage (.658) since 1984-85.



15. ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS, SEC
Positives: 4 30-win seasons; 17 NCAA berths; 2 No. 1 seeds; 3 Final Fours; 1994 national championship
Negatives: 3 losing seasons; 0 first team All-Americans
Total points: 204
Did you know? The Razorbacks found success in the Southwest Conference and continued that tradition when Arkansas moved to the bigger SEC in 1991. New coach John Pelphrey seems to have the proud program back on the upswing. This is the highest-ranked school that hasn't had any first team All-Americans since 1985. The Razorbacks come in second among the three schools tied at 204 points because of a .660 combined winning percentage since 1984-85.



14. MEMPHIS TIGERS, Conference USA
Positives: 12 conference titles (7 regular-season; 5 tourney); 4 30-win seasons; 20 postseasons (13 NCAA, 7 NIT); 2 No. 1 seeds; 5 Elite Eights; 8 All-Americans; 5 NBA top-10 picks
Negatives: 3 losing seasons; 0 national championships; lost to 12th-seeded DePaul in 1989, lost to 12th-seeded Drexel in 1996; 1 NCAA sanction
Total points: 204
Did you know? The Tigers have won at least 30 games for the past three seasons, and that recent run of dominance helped them leapfrog some of their rivals. With the butter-soft C-USA providing little resistance lately, Memphis is a program with a high ceiling in our rankings. The Tigers come in first among the three schools tied with 204 points because of the best combined winning percentage (.686) since 1984-85.



13. INDIANA HOOSIERS, Big Ten
Positives: 5 regular-season conference titles; 17 20-win seasons; 2 30-win seasons; 21 NCAA berths, the fifth-most of any team since 1984-85; 2 No. 1 seeds; 3 Final Fours; 1987 national championship; 13 All-Americans; 2 NBA top-10 picks
Negatives: 1 losing season; lost to 14th-seeded Cleveland State in 1986, lost to 13th-seeded Richmond in 1988, lost to 13th-seeded Kent State in 2001
Total points: 214
Did you know? The Hoosiers definitely would be higher on this list if we went back further. They did win it all in 1987 and made three Final Fours, but just one of those Final Fours took place in the past 16 years. Other than IU's surprise title game appearance in 2002, the Mike Davis era was mostly disappointing, including two seasons of missing the NCAA tournament.



12. OKLAHOMA SOONERS, Big 12
Positives: 10 conference titles (4 regular-season, 6 tourney); 20 20-win seasons; 4 30-win seasons; 19 NCAA berths; 5 No. 1 seeds, the fifth-most since 1984-85; 2 Final Fours; 6 All-Americans; win over No. 4-seeded Arizona in 1999; 0 losing seasons
Negatives: lost to 13th-seeded Louisiana-Lafayette in 1992, lost to 13th-seeded Manhattan in 1995, lost to 13th-seeded Indiana State in 2001
Total points: 221
Did you know? Despite not having a national title banner hanging from their rafters, the Sooners are ranked this high thanks to consistency. They never had a losing season in the past 24 years, and they won at least 20 games 20 times. Reasonable NCAA tournament success (five No. 1 seeds, two Final Fours and a title game appearance) puts OU in the top dozen.



11. MICHIGAN STATE SPARTANS, Big Ten
Positives: 5 regular-season conference titles; 14 20-win seasons; 4 No. 1 seeds; 18 NCAA berths; 9 Sweet 16s; 4 Final Fours; 2000 national championship; 12 All-Americans
Negatives: 2 losing seasons; 14 20-win seasons is tied for the fewest of any team in the Top 20; lost to 14th-seeded Weber State in 1995
Total points: 230
Did you know? The Spartans are tied with four other programs with the fourth-most Final Fours in the past 24 seasons. However, their five first-round losses, including an upset by Weber State in 1995 as a 3-seed, cost them a spot in the Top 10.

OU missed the TOP 10 barely.



Check ESPN.com on Friday for the Top 10.



Harold Shelton, Nick Loucks and Chris Fallica are researchers at ESPN.

 

[209sooner]

I could be wrong but I believe OSU beat the NIT champions the second year they won the NCAA tournament. If so, that would solidify that championship.

I could find you a couple of overall rankings made in the past 5 years that has OSU a head of OU. It's really just how you look at it.

OSU has a losing record against 6 of the other 11 Big 12 schools (including OU). They have finished ahead of OU once in the 13 year history of the Big 12. OU has a winning record against every Big 12 school except Kansas. The ESPN rankings were based on numbers, not someone's subjective opinion. This is really not much of a debate.

 

[BigTime]

Not cherry picking. Answer the question. When has OU ever won a NCAA or NIT Championship? Don't belittle ours because you don't have any.

This poke is hilarious.

The POINT of this thread is to say that despite your two championships, the numbers show that OU and OSU are relatively close as programs, but that OU gets a slight edge due to the many factors that I listed in the OP.

You can blame us all you want for not "accepting" or for "belittling" your 60 plus year old championships, but it still doesn't account for the all time win %, head to head, tourney appearences, conference championships, records in the Big 12 and Big 8 etc....

As for your championships, congrats. Feel proud. Iba was a helluva coach. But don't expect us to bow down for something that happened that long ago and in a different era of college basketball. The qualifiers in the OP are true and shouldn't be omitted regarding your championships. The game and format is not the same has it has been for the last 30 plus years. I relate a lot better to things that have happened during the last 25 years. Sorry but thats just how it goes.

 

[ByronHoustonsSweatyPalms]

As for your championships, congrats. Feel proud. Iba was a helluva coach. .

Thanks Big Time!!!: :eddie187_jpg_xs:

 

[InTheKnow]

For being in the know, you sure don't read well. The post includes stats going back all time.

Let me post it for you so you don't miss it this time, kind aggie.

So, you want to go back all-time? That is fine with me. All-Time Stats:

OU: All Time Record 1,468-936 (.611) OSU: 1452-1018 (.588).
126 Bedlam Wins 89
10 winning coaches 6
21 different All-Americans 17
22 Conference Championships 17
10/11 winning records against the Big 12 5/11
34 1000 point scorers 30
8 Oylmpic Appearences ?
40 NBA Draft Selections 32
26 NCAA appearences 23
32 Total Tournament appearences 31
157 100 point games 39
51 game home win streak 46
OU has spent more weeks in the AP Top 25 poll than OSU.
OU has had more winning seasons than OSU.
OU has a better all time home winning percentage than OSU.
OU has made it to 4 final fours (2 Championship games)

BigTime, you don't count National Championships? I thought you would be more accurate in your research...

Take a look at this link:

http://www.ncaa.com/history/m-basketball-d1.html

OSU = 2
OU = 0

BigTime, you can't erase history. Did you notice where Bill Self won the "Henry Iba Coach of the Year Award", not the "Billy Tubbs Coach of the Year Award". That's tradition, friendly sooner.

OSU has greater average attendance.

OSU basketball = revenue generator
OU basketball = money loser

BigTime, OU basketball will always be in the shadow of your great football tradition. If OU basketball was a business, it would need a government bailout - seriously.

Since the sooner football team has 3 titles from the 50s, I suppose those don't count? Ouch, that would mean Texas has a greater football program since they have the edge head-to-head.....

I'll give you this much, you make some good points and only a fool would say you don't have a high-quality basketball program. It's just not quite on the level of OSU basketball.

OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program

 

[HoHum]

That the programs you cited have Zero to do with the average sports fan.

Once again. This has no relevancy.

The guy (who is not you!) said, "OSU had a pretty pathetic athletic department". He didn't say, "OSU is pathetic in the most relevant sports", he said "athletic department".

Department: A distinct, usually specialized division of a large organization.

The division being athletics, of an organization being Oklahoma State University.

I'm just showing him OSU has a very good athletic department, all the way around.

 

[WaymanFan]

OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program

You have it backwards. I have a lot of respect for OSU's basketball tradition, and I certainly don't discount your two titles. However, the two titles won more than 60 years ago don't offset all of the stats listed which favor OU. The thing which would be most disturbing to me if I was an OSU fan is the fact that OSU has only one year out of thirteen which they finished ahead of OU in the Big XII. Seriously, one out of thirteen? It really doesn't give you much ammunition for your argument.

OU was slightly better than OSU this decade, OSU was slightly better in the 1990s, and OU was light years better in the 1980s. OSU has done better in the NCAA Tournament based on their seed, but being as objective as possible, I can't see how OSU is higher on the tradition totem pole than OU.

 

[209sooner]

"OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program"

Top 20 programs don't have losing records against the majority of schools in their own conference. OSU has a losing record against Nebraska. That's just pathetic. Your attendance argument is weak, too. OSU had terrible attendance this year...much worse than OU. No unbiased person considers OSU's basketball program to be better than OU. You are dreaming.

 

[sincitysooner]

BigTime, you don't count National Championships? I thought you would be more accurate in your research...

Take a look at this link:

http://www.ncaa.com/history/m-basketball-d1.html

OSU = 2
OU = 0

BigTime, you can't erase history. Did you notice where Bill Self won the "Henry Iba Coach of the Year Award", not the "Billy Tubbs Coach of the Year Award". That's tradition, friendly sooner.

OSU has greater average attendance.

OSU basketball = revenue generator
OU basketball = money loser

BigTime, OU basketball will always be in the shadow of your great football tradition. If OU basketball was a business, it would need a government bailout - seriously.

Since the sooner football team has 3 titles from the 50s, I suppose those don't count? Ouch, that would mean Texas has a greater football program since they have the edge head-to-head.....

I'll give you this much, you make some good points and only a fool would say you don't have a high-quality basketball program. It's just not quite on the level of OSU basketball.

OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program

:ez-roll: :ez-roll: :ez-roll:

 

[InTheKnow]

This poke is hilarious.

The POINT of this thread is to say that despite your two championships, the numbers show that OU and OSU are relatively close as programs, but that OU gets a slight edge due to the many factors that I listed in the OP.

You can blame us all you want for not "accepting" or for "belittling" your 60 plus year old championships, but it still doesn't account for the all time win %, head to head, tourney appearences, conference championships, records in the Big 12 and Big 8 etc....

As for your championships, congrats. Feel proud. Iba was a helluva coach. But don't expect us to bow down for something that happened that long ago and in a different era of college basketball. The qualifiers in the OP are true and shouldn't be omitted regarding your championships. The game and format is not the same has it has been for the last 30 plus years. I relate a lot better to things that have happened during the last 25 years. Sorry but thats just how it goes.

This, I can agree with. Using a 30 year time frame, I would agree with you and give a slight edge to the sooners.

 

[Sooner Quick]

BigTime, you don't count National Championships? I thought you would be more accurate in your research...

Take a look at this link:

http://www.ncaa.com/history/m-basketball-d1.html

OSU = 2
OU = 0

BigTime, you can't erase history. Did you notice where Bill Self won the "Henry Iba Coach of the Year Award", not the "Billy Tubbs Coach of the Year Award". That's tradition, friendly sooner.

OSU has greater average attendance.

OSU basketball = revenue generator
OU basketball = money loser

BigTime, OU basketball will always be in the shadow of your great football tradition. If OU basketball was a business, it would need a government bailout - seriously.

Since the sooner football team has 3 titles from the 50s, I suppose those don't count? Ouch, that would mean Texas has a greater football program since they have the edge head-to-head.....

I'll give you this much, you make some good points and only a fool would say you don't have a high-quality basketball program. It's just not quite on the level of OSU basketball.

OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program

Just like a Poke fan, bring up head to head with other teams (Texas) to make themselves look not as bad? I guess.

If OSU basketball were a business what would they need? You couldn't even sell out most of your home games and what would OSU football be? :ez-roll:
OSU is a wrasslin school. OU is a school for all athletics!
OSU is not a better basketball program than OU, the stats prove it.

 

[HoHum]

OSU is a wrasslin school. OU is a school for all athletics!

Oh boy...

I guess I should elaborate. There's no doubt OU is successful at football and basketball.

But given OSU's Golf, wrestling and baseball programs have all had more success than OU's, wouldn't that mean OSU's also a school for all athletics?

 

[Seymore Cox]

Oh boy...

I guess I should elaborate. There's no doubt OU is successful at football and basketball.

But given OSU's Golf, wrestling and baseball programs have all had more success than OU's, wouldn't that mean OSU's also a school for all athletics?

OU has, Softball, Volleyball, and Gymnastics. And who was the last State school to win a Baseball NC. And most of us were alive when it happened. Again, cherry picking.

 

[HoHum]

OSU has, Softball, Volleyball, and Gymnastics. And who was the last State school to win a Baseball NC. And most of us were alive when it happened. Again, cherry picking.

It really doesn't matter that OU has won a CWS in the 90's considering the 19-9 OSU advantage in appearing in the CWS, and that OSU has a winning record against every single Big XII baseball team short of Texas.

I assume you mean OU...

OSU doesn't even compete in gymnastics or volleyball, but if that's the case, OSU is better in Equestrian.

Once again, you're arguing somebody else's claim. Two people have said OSU doesn't have a good athletic department. I put down facts that clearly shows they do.

And then you jump in with "It's not as good as OU's!!!" When that's not even what they are saying.

So, I'll just ask you: Does OSU have a poor athletic department?

 

[Seymore Cox]

It really doesn't matter that OU has won a CWS in the 90's considering the 19-9 OSU advantage in appearing in the CWS, and that OSU has a winning record against every single Big XII baseball team short of Texas.

I assume you mean OU...

OSU doesn't even compete in gymnastics or volleyball, but if that's the case, OSU is better in Equestrian.

Once again, you're arguing somebody else's claim. Two people have said OSU doesn't have a good athletic department. I put down facts that clearly shows they do.

And then you jump in with "It's not as good as OU's!!!" When that's not even what they are saying.

So, I'll just ask you: Does OSU have a poor athletic department?

I guess OSU's athletic department is OK. I don't count the non revenue sports, but if you you're a big equestrian fan and rasslin buff, then brag away. I think OSU gets alot of bang for its buck when it comes to the non revenue sports that you brag about. But the sports that I follow, OSU has been pedestian in my 30+ year lifetime.


Originally Posted by InTheKnow
BigTime, you don't count National Championships? I thought you would be more accurate in your research...

Take a look at this link:

http://www.ncaa.com/history/m-basketball-d1.html

OSU = 2
OU = 0

BigTime, you can't erase history. Did you notice where Bill Self won the "Henry Iba Coach of the Year Award", not the "Billy Tubbs Coach of the Year Award". That's tradition, friendly sooner.

OSU has greater average attendance.

OSU basketball = revenue generator
OU basketball = money loser

BigTime, OU basketball will always be in the shadow of your great football tradition. If OU basketball was a business, it would need a government bailout - seriously.

Since the sooner football team has 3 titles from the 50s, I suppose those don't count? Ouch, that would mean Texas has a greater football program since they have the edge head-to-head.....

I'll give you this much, you make some good points and only a fool would say you don't have a high-quality basketball program. It's just not quite on the level of OSU basketball.

OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program

This InTheKnow guy is a hack, and I don't care if I get banned for saying it. He likes to make POS comments and then runs and tucks tail. I respect guys like HoHum that come and debate and are civil. IntheKnow is the type who calls OU fans "Gooners" and "squats" on OSU message boards. He's been a message board hater for years. As far as OU needing a bailout, you should know a little about that, because OSU has it's own Obama. Let's see, Boone Puts money into the department, starts firing the heads of departments(Les, Sean, Schmidly, Birdwell), and has mismanaged his own investments(where's that indoor practice facility). Like I said, I'm in my mid thirtys and can only deal in what is relevant in my lifetime. OU dominated basketball in the 80s, it was at best a draw in the 90s, and OU has edged ahead this century.

 

[sincitysooner]

We should be comparing OSU and Tulsa, as that would be a more equal comparison.

 

[BigTime]

:

BigTime, you don't count National Championships? I thought you would be more accurate in your research...

Take a look at this link:

http://www.ncaa.com/history/m-basketball-d1.html

OSU = 2
OU = 0

Again. I ask you to read the original post. It mentions the championships. It mentions the Elite 8s. I am not hiding from your accomplishments. The things that you have done during the Iba years are the only reason that this is even debatable. Now you can choose to hang your hat on those all you want, but it would be silly to not look at what has happened prior to the Iba years and what has occurred after his reign. It is interesting because we probably had some of our worst teams during the latter part of his hayday.

BigTime, you can't erase history. Did you notice where Bill Self won the "Henry Iba Coach of the Year Award", not the "Billy Tubbs Coach of the Year Award". That's tradition, friendly sooner.

Iba is and always will be a great coach. No doubt about it. Bruce Drake (a fellow hall of famer) was also a great coach that deeply impacted the game. Tradition is pretty subjective in the sense that you put merit on awards being named for past greats. Numbers don't lie. Consistency doesn't lie. I have given you plenty of facts that span the gamet of basketball parameters showing why the Sooners have the edge.

OSU has greater average attendance.

Not this year my friend. How quickly one forgets (yet you seem to remember the Iba years so vividly) how terrible OSU basketball attendance was for the better part of 40 years until Leonard sparked some life and Eddie got it going. The OU teams of the 70s and 80s outsold and outdrew the OSU program. Also, I don't think average attendance has anything to do with computing which is the best all time team.

OSU basketball = revenue generator
OU basketball = money loser

Not this year. But thanks for playing. OU basketball has been a money maker for the majority of the years that I have followed the program. Again, it is pretty convienent to forget the couple of decades that the old GastroIntestinal Arena was quite a bit smaller than the LNC and that more folks were going to OU basketball games than were attending OSU games. Show me some revenue numbers from those years and lets put it all together before we make such a blanket statement.

BigTime, OU basketball will always be in the shadow of your great football tradition. If OU basketball was a business, it would need a government bailout - seriously.

As would most college programs througout the country. Yours would have gone under a long time ago as well. OU basketball has no reason to try to compete with OU football. We are comparing BASKETBALL programs here. I don't think you want us to combine the two major money making programs between our schools and look at that breakdown, do you!!!
Since the sooner football team has 3 titles from the 50s, I suppose those don't count? Ouch, that would mean Texas has a greater football program since they have the edge head-to-head.....

I'll give you this much, you make some good points and only a fool would say you don't have a high-quality basketball program. It's just not quite on the level of OSU basketball.

OSU basketball = top 20 program
OU basketball = top 25 program

Thanks for acknowledging what what many pokes don't want to acknowledge. I certainly think that OSU is a top 25-30 all time program. I just think that OU is slightly ahead....in the low 20s. Hopefully we can get a championship under Capel and put this argument to bed.

:billy2849::ford:kelvin:eddie187_jpg_xs::jcapel

 

[BigTime]

This, I can agree with. Using a 30 year time frame, I would agree with you and give a slight edge to the sooners.

All time. I am talking all time. The numbers in the original post are for all time.

 

[NMSooner'80]

I've probably posted this several times, but has that information been e-mailed to the sports writers in OKC and Tulsa? I'm sure they'd immediately go to work on trying to debunk the numbers that favor OU.

But, I do love this kind of thread! :clap :clap

 

[Dignon003]

Perception is reality.



Kelvin and Eddie provided a good rivalry. Capel and Sean did not. Capel and Ford appear to have what it takes to have some classic games.