Skill vs. Athletic ability

[thebigabd]

Well, watched both Bedlam games. Both good teams. They are just more athletic. OU is more skilled. OU turns it over less, shoots it better, etc but OSU has an athletic edge and of course Cade is a master of dominating the game even when he doesn't shoot. He knows that. He didn't care that he didn't score until 7 minutes left in the game... Score 40, score 12, he still controls the game.

They fly around, score a lot around the rim, constantly in the lane, fighting, scrapping, etc... They are sloppy though. Lead the league in turnovers, etc.

OU looked a little softer and less athletic. But more skilled.

Different teams but evenly matched.

We will see OUs state of mind against Texas.

 

[oudna]

Had several head-scratching turnovers tonight
May have been the difference

 

[OUSKINS]

To me, the best way to truly judge a superior team (in any sport really) is to ask yourself who wins a 7 game series. It’s why big upsets in NBA are rare— it’s hard to hide or get lucky four out of seven times. That of course isn’t how things are decided in college, but if I see two teams on a fairly even plane, that’s what I ask myself.

I don’t disagree with the notion that OSU is the more athletic team here— and you’re probably right that skill-wise, OU has an edge. But I think OSU is just flat better. Not by a wide margin, but I think they’d win a seven game series. This mini series we just had illustrated it pretty well to me. Even with one of their best players out, even on the heels of a loss 48 hours early, and even with their star player not doing much at all for over 3/4 of the game, we couldn’t pull far enough away from them to hold on.

It’s hard to “better” than another team if they are athletically superior AND have the presumptive #1 overall pick while your team doesn’t possess any real NBA level talent.

The Pokes are the better team. I felt that way BEFORE this series, but I also thought we’d find a way to split the games and had we done that, I for sure think we still would have held a clear edge of them when it came to seeding/ranking as our resume would be more impressive. But we didn’t, and now they’ve passed us in that department as well.

If you are making the argument, not sure how you’d frame it in our favor that we are the better team OR that we deserve a higher seed.

 

[steverocks35]

Let's not forget that OSU was playing both games against us without their second best player.

 

[ByronHoustonsSweatyPalms]

Don’t want to bring up race but could it be our own prejudice? Team with the white guys are skilled. Predominantly black team is athletic




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[steverocks35]

Don’t want to bring up race but could it be our own prejudice? Team with the white guys are skilled. Predominantly black team is athletic




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Well that's food for thought...

Reaves, Williams, Harkless, Kur, Issanza, are plenty athletic.

Gibson, Manek, and Harmon aren't really all that athletic.

We have no one that compares to the Boone brothers, Moncrief, or Cunningham.

 

[thebigabd]

Don’t want to bring up race but could it be our own prejudice? Team with the white guys are skilled. Predominantly black team is athletic

I don't think so... OSU is just more athletic. The Boone twins are way more athletic than Jalen Hill and Brady Manek... Avery Anderson and Cade Cunningham are way more athletic than Umoja Gibson, Harkless, and Reaves.

 

[tmeyer3307]

This team has out performed themselves all season.. I was waiting for a let down and it happened against KSU. Needed to finish 2-2 on season not 1-3 or 0-4. We got low ranked guys that just get after you and play hard, but at a certain point we need more athletic big/taller guys.

Next year we MUST land a legit Big if we want to compete at a high level again. A low post player that can play both ends.. surround this transfer with Our 3 good returning guards and Victor/Hill at 4.

 

[Stikboy]

How are you guys defining athleticism? I think in basketball most define it as how high someone can jump. To me, it's that for sure(leaping ability) but also lateral quickness, speed, overall explosiveness.

I can't figure out how athletic OU is. I think Iwuakor is as athletic as any player in the country, but he barely gets more than Streller minutes. I see Hill out jump guys all the time, and he stays with guys OK. I think he just severely lacks confidence. I can't figure out how athletic Harkless is. There were some highlights at CSUN where he absolutely destroyed some rims, but i've yet to see him dunk once at OU. He seemed to try on that one drive against Bama. Harmon seems pretty athletic for his size he's just short. Alondes? Athleticism but lacks skills.

I will say OU needs a talent infusion. OU got a spark in the middle of this year from the transfers, but the team has ceiling'ed and seems tapped out. If it's not one thing it's another. It's a dead horse, but OU has a recruiting problem. I wish Lon would go get some young assistants that can recruit. He went out and got "Pooh". Is he responsible for signing anyone? I hope the two guys OU just signed are great players. Coach says we are going to possibly get some good bigs on the transfer market. Let's hope so.. Heck i'd take a 6-6 or 6-7 guy who is physical, hard-nosed, can rebound(can't believe I actually have to ask for that), and has at least a modicum of offensive ability. The sad thing about the roster right now is... Not only are they getting their butts kicked on the boards, only a few guys can score consistently.. Lon has on the bench a 6-7 guy(Iwuakor) who hardly plays, a 7-1 and 6-9 guy who both never play, a 6-10 guy(Kuath) who is starting to hardly ever play... all the while Manek has to play all these minutes and looks like he's about to pass out. He's not even a real "big" either. He's a guard in a 6-9 body.

Remember before the year everyone was talking about how deep OU was? Deep in what? When OU was on their top-10 win binge and everyone was losing their * I had this sneaking feeling of.... we need to wait until the end of the season to see if this is real. Then the collapse happened...like clockwork!

 

[WichitaSooner]

I don't think so... OSU is just more athletic. The Boone twins are way more athletic than Jalen Hill and Brady Manek... Avery Anderson and Cade Cunningham are way more athletic than Umoja Gibson, Harkless, and Reaves.

OSU likely is more athletic than OU -- they are probably one of the two most athletic teams in the league, along with Texas. That said, you leave out our three most athletic players when making your comparison. Williams, Vic, and Kur didn't give us much last night and only Kur was a factor Saturday, but they have all had multiple games where they helped us significantly this season. And Reaves is a far superior athlete to Mo and EJ, so he shouldn't be grouped in with them.

 

[thebigabd]

OSU likely is more athletic than OU -- they are probably one of the two most athletic teams in the league, along with Texas. That said, you leave out our three most athletic players when making your comparison. Williams, Vic, and Kur didn't give us much last night and only Kur was a factor Saturday, but they have all had multiple games where they helped us significantly this season. And Reaves is a far superior athlete to Mo and EJ, so he shouldn't be grouped in with them.

I left them out because they didn't play... Alondes, Vic, and Kur are the most athletic players on the team. They just don't play.

And I agree on Reaves... much better athlete than Mo and EJ.

 

[WichitaSooner]

I left them out because they didn't play... Alondes, Vic, and Kur are the most athletic players on the team. They just don't play.

And I agree on Reaves... much better athlete than Mo and EJ.

They didn't play (much) last night, but if we are looking at it from a broader perspective (i.e., the season as a whole), Kur and Williams have been starters/key rotation guys, and Vic has had moments for us. I think they will all play more Thursday -- we need Kur and Vic for their size against Texas, and Vic was quite good against them in Austin. Williams was starting till Covid, and just hasn't found any real rhythm since, partially because Mo has played well since taking his spot in the starting lineup.

 

[AdaSooner]

OSU likely is more athletic than OU -- they are probably one of the two most athletic teams in the league, along with Texas. That said, you leave out our three most athletic players when making your comparison. Williams, Vic, and Kur didn't give us much last night and only Kur was a factor Saturday, but they have all had multiple games where they helped us significantly this season. And Reaves is a far superior athlete to Mo and EJ, so he shouldn't be grouped in with them.

To me, the question is why didn’t Williams, Vic and Kur give us much last night. None of them, Hill included, played many minutes.

Depth has been a major strength for this team the entire season. Yet, our five starters played most of the game. No one else played more than 8 minutes (Hill). OSU, on the other hand, had seven players who logged double figures in minutes (a minimum of 18). With Likekele watching from the bench, we know for sure they had at least eight players who could have played a major portion of the game.

I’d hate to think that the deepest team (in my opinion and that if others) we’ve had in years, is down to five players who are capable of playing major minutes. Help me understand what Lon was thinking by riding on the shoulders of our starters most of last night’s game? That made no sense to me.

 

[sheepdogs1]

To me, the question is why didn’t Williams, Vic and Kur give us much last night. None of them, Hill included, played many minutes.

Depth has been a major strength for this team the entire season. Yet, our five starters played most of the game. No one else played more than 8 minutes (Hill). OSU, on the other hand, had seven players who logged double figures in minutes (a minimum of 18). With Likekele watching from the bench, we know for sure they had at least eight players who could have played a major portion of the game.

I’d hate to think that the deepest team (in my opinion and that if others) we’ve had in years, is down to five players who are capable of playing major minutes. Help me understand what Lon was thinking by riding on the shoulders of our starters most of last night’s game? That made no sense to me.

And throw in we played them just last Saturday to boot.

 

[WichitaSooner]

To me, the question is why didn’t Williams, Vic and Kur give us much last night. None of them, Hill included, played many minutes.

Depth has been a major strength for this team the entire season. Yet, our five starters played most of the game. No one else played more than 8 minutes (Hill). OSU, on the other hand, had seven players who logged double figures in minutes (a minimum of 18). With Likekele watching from the bench, we know for sure they had at least eight players who could have played a major portion of the game.

I’d hate to think that the deepest team (in my opinion and that if others) we’ve had in years, is down to five players who are capable of playing major minutes. Help me understand what Lon was thinking by riding on the shoulders of our starters most of last night’s game? That made no sense to me.

Lon gave Vic every chance on Saturday by putting him in the game early, but Vic REALLY struggled. He missed multiple chances for easy buckets and didn't give us any real help on the boards in that game. I think it would have been a big gamble to run him back out there 48 hours later, on the road, against the same opponent. I think Kur's minutes were limited simply because Brady got off to such a hot start. I would bet significant money that coming into the game, Kur was slated to get more minutes, but they adjusted based on Brady's start. Alondes played a fair amount in the first half, mainly because Reaves was in foul trouble, but didn't really do anything to contribute. And Hill -- I am his biggest fan and generally want him on the floor as often as possible. But he also was a bit off these past two games and I think it was just hard to find minutes for him since the game was tight throughout. But again, I do expect we will play our bench more Thursday.

I think people sometimes forget that bench guys are almost always going to have significant ups and downs. Even in the NBA, it is well known that role players are streaky and tend to play much better at home than on the road. On nights they are playing well, you ride with them longer, but when they aren't giving you much, you rely on the starters to carry you. I disagree with the people who think the past couple games call our depth into question. We don't get a ton of points off the bench, but we have three or four guys who all help in various ways more often than not.

 

[AdaSooner]

Lon gave Vic every chance on Saturday by putting him in the game early, but Vic REALLY struggled. He missed multiple chances for easy buckets and didn't give us any real help on the boards in that game. I think it would have been a big gamble to run him back out there 48 hours later, on the road, against the same opponent. I think Kur's minutes were limited simply because Brady got off to such a hot start. I would bet significant money that coming into the game, Kur was slated to get more minutes, but they adjusted based on Brady's start. Alondes played a fair amount in the first half, mainly because Reaves was in foul trouble, but didn't really do anything to contribute. And Hill -- I am his biggest fan and generally want him on the floor as often as possible. But he also was a bit off these past two games and I think it was just hard to find minutes for him since the game was tight throughout. But again, I do expect we will play our bench more Thursday.

I think people sometimes forget that bench guys are almost always going to have significant ups and downs. Even in the NBA, it is well known that role players are streaky and tend to play much better at home than on the road. On nights they are playing well, you ride with them longer, but when they aren't giving you much, you rely on the starters to carry you. I disagree with the people who think the past couple games call our depth into question. We don't get a ton of points off the bench, but we have three or four guys who all help in various ways more often than not.

I can’t argue with your take on the reason our back up players didn’t play more. Heck, I saw it with my own eyes. Thanks for the explanation!

It’s just frustrating to me to think that Okie State had more players who were ready to contribute in a big game this late in the season than OU. One would think everyone on our roster should be adequately equipped by now, to some degree. Still, Lon has to go with the players he feels will give us the best chance to win. It’s a crapshoot sometimes.

 

[sheepdogs1]

I can’t argue with your take on the reason our back up players didn’t play more. Heck, I saw it with my own eyes. Thanks for the explanation!

It’s just frustrating to me to think that Okie State had more players who were ready to contribute in a big game this late in the season than OU. One would think everyone on our roster should be adequately equipped by now, to some degree. Still, Lon has to go with the players he feels will give us the best chance to win. It’s a crapshoot sometimes.

And OSU has a very young team as they have a couple of seniors yet one did not play against us and the other averaged 3 minutes over the course of the two head to head games against us. 2 of our 3 players most utilized off the bench are seniors and we started 2 seniors, 2 juniors and a sophomore.

 

[AdaSooner]

And OSU has a very young team as they have a couple of seniors yet one did not play against us and the other averaged 3 minutes over the course of the two head to head games against us. 2 of our 3 players most utilized off the bench are seniors and we started 2 seniors, 2 juniors and a sophomore.

Thanks a lot! You moved me from frustrated to depressed.

 

[WTSooner]

I actually see it the other way. I don't think we're particularly skilled. Mostly, in terms of shooting/scoring the ball.

Only Gibson of the guys that shoot a lot of threes has what I'd call a good percentage. Manek isn't bad at 35%, for a big guy. But he takes a lot of threes as well, at that percentage. Reaves, Harmon, and especially Harkless aren't shooting it well.

I'm not saying we're the most athletic team, but I don't see athleticism as the biggest problem. Probably a bigger problem inside, than at the guard positions.

Ken Pomeroy has us 33rd in O and 41 in D. Not sure what I expected before I looked, but probably not for those numbers to be so close. I feel like this team fights hard and plays harder than they have in recent years, but it still goes back to skill for me. Reaves is obviously our best player, and a) he doesn't shoot it well, and b) he has to work so hard to get stuff going to the basket. I guess that last comment could indicate a lack of athleticism, but it is also indicative of being a poor shooter (makes defenders respect your drive more than your shot). I'm still floored that a guy that shot 51% and 43% at WSU, has shot 26% and 28% from three at OU. Just floored.

 

[steverocks35]

I actually see it the other way. I don't think we're particularly skilled. Mostly, in terms of shooting/scoring the ball.

Only Gibson of the guys that shoot a lot of threes has what I'd call a good percentage. Manek isn't bad at 35%, for a big guy. But he takes a lot of threes as well, at that percentage. Reaves, Harmon, and especially Harkless aren't shooting it well.

I'm not saying we're the most athletic team, but I don't see athleticism as the biggest problem. Probably a bigger problem inside, than at the guard positions.

Ken Pomeroy has us 33rd in O and 41 in D. Not sure what I expected before I looked, but probably not for those numbers to be so close. I feel like this team fights hard and plays harder than they have in recent years, but it still goes back to skill for me. Reaves is obviously our best player, and a) he doesn't shoot it well, and b) he has to work so hard to get stuff going to the basket. I guess that last comment could indicate a lack of athleticism, but it is also indicative of being a poor shooter (makes defenders respect your drive more than your shot). I'm still floored that a guy that shot 51% and 43% at WSU, has shot 26% and 28% from three at OU. Just floored.

Well, when everyone in the building knows exactly what he's going to do it makes it that much harder for him.