Skill vs. Athletic ability

WTSooner said:
I actually see it the other way. I don't think we're particularly skilled. Mostly, in terms of shooting/scoring the ball.

Only Gibson of the guys that shoot a lot of threes has what I'd call a good percentage. Manek isn't bad at 35%, for a big guy. But he takes a lot of threes as well, at that percentage. Reaves, Harmon, and especially Harkless aren't shooting it well.

I'm not saying we're the most athletic team, but I don't see athleticism as the biggest problem. Probably a bigger problem inside, than at the guard positions.

Ken Pomeroy has us 33rd in O and 41 in D. Not sure what I expected before I looked, but probably not for those numbers to be so close. I feel like this team fights hard and plays harder than they have in recent years, but it still goes back to skill for me. Reaves is obviously our best player, and a) he doesn't shoot it well, and b) he has to work so hard to get stuff going to the basket. I guess that last comment could indicate a lack of athleticism, but it is also indicative of being a poor shooter (makes defenders respect your drive more than your shot). I'm still floored that a guy that shot 51% and 43% at WSU, has shot 26% and 28% from three at OU. Just floored.
Click to expand...

They moved the 3 point line back between his time at WSU and his time at OU and it is having its designed affect when it comes to Reaves.
 
WTSooner said:
I actually see it the other way. I don't think we're particularly skilled. Mostly, in terms of shooting/scoring the ball.

Only Gibson of the guys that shoot a lot of threes has what I'd call a good percentage. Manek isn't bad at 35%, for a big guy. But he takes a lot of threes as well, at that percentage. Reaves, Harmon, and especially Harkless aren't shooting it well.

I'm not saying we're the most athletic team, but I don't see athleticism as the biggest problem. Probably a bigger problem inside, than at the guard positions.

Ken Pomeroy has us 33rd in O and 41 in D. Not sure what I expected before I looked, but probably not for those numbers to be so close. I feel like this team fights hard and plays harder than they have in recent years, but it still goes back to skill for me. Reaves is obviously our best player, and a) he doesn't shoot it well, and b) he has to work so hard to get stuff going to the basket. I guess that last comment could indicate a lack of athleticism, but it is also indicative of being a poor shooter (makes defenders respect your drive more than your shot). I'm still floored that a guy that shot 51% and 43% at WSU, has shot 26% and 28% from three at OU. Just floored.
Click to expand...

It's a huge problem inside... Watch the highlights from last night... Kalib Boone had the easiest 17 points of his career. Easy lay ins, dunks, wide open. He had to work for 1 basket. Everything else was just uncontested.

And it's directly tied to Manek. Not saying it's like that every game, but I watched EVERY TIME Boone scored, and Manek was basically not even trying to stop him...
 
Max Power said:
They moved the 3 point line back between his time at WSU and his time at OU and it is having its designed affect when it comes to Reaves.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that is the reason for a 20% drop for him. We haven't seen anywhere near that kind of impact on most kids.
 
thebigabd said:
It's a huge problem inside... Watch the highlights from last night... Kalib Boone had the easiest 17 points of his career. Easy lay ins, dunks, wide open. He had to work for 1 basket. Everything else was just uncontested.

And it's directly tied to Manek. Not saying it's like that every game, but I watched EVERY TIME Boone scored, and Manek was basically not even trying to stop him...
Click to expand...

We all know Manek isn't the most athletic dude. But who are his backups? Kuath? Athleticism isn't the issue there, it's that he simply isn't a very good basketball player. Same with Hill. Same with a couple of others.

Some of the success OSU had was because of Manek, I agree. And some of it is being forced into playing a 4 guard lineup where the second biggest of those 4 is Reaves, and he plays PG (thus cannot/does not contribute on the boards at all). It's just poor roster management. It goes back to what is probably my biggest criticism of Lon, and that is he recruits guys that look a certain way instead of guys that can play the game. I'll take skill over athleticism without skill every time. Ideally you find some guys that are both, but you can't have a roster comprised of a bunch of guys that HAVE to develop so much as a player to even be playable.
 
WTSooner said:
We all know Manek isn't the most athletic dude. But who are his backups? Kuath? Athleticism isn't the issue there, it's that he simply isn't a very good basketball player. Same with Hill. Same with a couple of others.

Some of the success OSU had was because of Manek, I agree. And some of it is being forced into playing a 4 guard lineup where the second biggest of those 4 is Reaves, and he plays PG (thus cannot/does not contribute on the boards at all). It's just poor roster management. It goes back to what is probably my biggest criticism of Lon, and that is he recruits guys that look a certain way instead of guys that can play the game. I'll take skill over athleticism without skill every time. Ideally you find some guys that are both, but you can't have a roster comprised of a bunch of guys that HAVE to develop so much as a player to even be playable.
Click to expand...

In other words they should know how to play basketball to begin with. That's how it should be, but something, invariably, gets in the way. This will in all likelihood change as Lon is not a spry pup.
 
WTSooner said:
I actually see it the other way. I don't think we're particularly skilled. Mostly, in terms of shooting/scoring the ball.

Only Gibson of the guys that shoot a lot of threes has what I'd call a good percentage. Manek isn't bad at 35%, for a big guy. But he takes a lot of threes as well, at that percentage. Reaves, Harmon, and especially Harkless aren't shooting it well.

I'm not saying we're the most athletic team, but I don't see athleticism as the biggest problem. Probably a bigger problem inside, than at the guard positions.

Ken Pomeroy has us 33rd in O and 41 in D. Not sure what I expected before I looked, but probably not for those numbers to be so close. I feel like this team fights hard and plays harder than they have in recent years, but it still goes back to skill for me. Reaves is obviously our best player, and a) he doesn't shoot it well, and b) he has to work so hard to get stuff going to the basket. I guess that last comment could indicate a lack of athleticism, but it is also indicative of being a poor shooter (makes defenders respect your drive more than your shot). I'm still floored that a guy that shot 51% and 43% at WSU, has shot 26% and 28% from three at OU. Just floored.
Click to expand...

Reaves was a spot up shooter at KSU, a guy who found an opening in the defense and fired away in rhythm when the ball arrived. He didn’t have the pressure of running the offense, or creating his own shot off of the dribble for that matter.

His shot doesn’t look that bad when he’s open. Problem is, he has the ball in his hands so much now, he gets a lot of attention from opposing defenses.
 
WTSooner said:
We all know Manek isn't the most athletic dude. But who are his backups? Kuath? Athleticism isn't the issue there, it's that he simply isn't a very good basketball player. Same with Hill. Same with a couple of others.

Some of the success OSU had was because of Manek, I agree. And some of it is being forced into playing a 4 guard lineup where the second biggest of those 4 is Reaves, and he plays PG (thus cannot/does not contribute on the boards at all). It's just poor roster management. It goes back to what is probably my biggest criticism of Lon, and that is he recruits guys that look a certain way instead of guys that can play the game. I'll take skill over athleticism without skill every time. Ideally you find some guys that are both, but you can't have a roster comprised of a bunch of guys that HAVE to develop so much as a player to even be playable.
Click to expand...

Nail on head.... Roster management. It's been Lon's #1 problem.

But, let's address the Kur situation. I watched the highlights from the first game.

Kur in the game:
  • Contested shot that led to a miss
  • Contested shot that led to a miss
  • Offensive rebound and put back
  • Caught a lob for a dunk
  • Caught another lob for a dunk
  • Caught another lob for a dunk
  • Offensive rebound and put back dunk
  • Assist to Alondes for bucket and a foul after saving it from going out of bounds

I saw him get scored on 1 time... and it was Moncrieffe with a contested shot. Boone scored 6 points, none on Kuath.

Lon put in his best athlete in the first game, and he made the plays you expect from your best athlete. Monster dunks, alley oops, rebounds, contested shots, etc.

Then he played like one minute in the next game, and Manek didn't even attempt to guard the post. Watch the video. Manek gave Boone the easiest game of his life.

Play Kuath 30 minutes next to Manek in both games, and OU wins both games. I truly believe that. Why is Jalen Hill getting 13 minutes?

In the first game against OSU, Hill started the game, and played 13 minutes. 0 points, 0 assists, 0 blocks, 0 steals, and 3 rebounds. Kur played a similar number of minutes... 10 points, 4 rebounds, and 1 assist. Give Kur those 13 minutes. Probably has 15-6 or something, with big athletic plays. Jalen did absolutely nothing.

Then in the next game Kur doesn't even play, and Jalen Hill gets 10 minutes and does basically nothing.

What the hell is going on here?
 
Last edited:
thebigabd said:
Nail on head.... Roster management. It's been Lon's #1 problem.

But, let's address the Kur situation. I watched the highlights from the first game.

Kur in the game:
  • Contested shot that led to a miss
  • Contested shot that led to a miss
  • Offensive rebound and put back
  • Caught a lob for a dunk
  • Caught another lob for a dunk
  • Caught another lob for a dunk
  • Offensive rebound and put back dunk
  • Assist to Alondes for bucket and a foul after saving it from going out of bounds

I saw him get scored on 1 time... and it was Moncrieffe with a contested shot. Boone scored 6 points, none on Kuath.

Lon put in his best athlete in the first game, and he made the plays you expect from your best athlete. Monster dunks, alley oops, rebounds, contested shots, etc.

Then he played like one minute in the next game, and Manek didn't even attempt to guard the post. Watch the video. Manek gave Boone the easiest game of his life.

Play Kuath 30 minutes next to Manek in both games, and OU wins both games. I truly believe that. Why is Jalen Hill getting 13 minutes?

In the first game against OSU, Hill started the game, and played 13 minutes. 0 points, 0 assists, 0 blocks, 0 steals, and 3 rebounds. Kur played a similar number of minutes... 10 points, 4 rebounds, and 1 assist. Give Kur those 13 minutes. Probably has 15-6 or something, with big athletic plays. Jalen did absolutely nothing.

Then in the next game Kur doesn't even play, and Jalen Hill gets 10 minutes and does basically nothing.

What the hell is going on here?
Click to expand...

People will contend that Kur's defensive game is what can lead to him not seeing the floor in a meaningful manner. They will even go a step further and illustrate his real weakness is attributed to "switching."

This is why we should know how to implement a zone defense as it will allow the team to use its players in the most efficient manner and not as paper weights! OSU uses it and they are a much younger team than us so that excuse, "we"re too young" doesn't hold water.
 
I'd agree.

Vic is suppose to be super athletic...?...can jump high? Honestly that's about all I see. He's avg on lateral speed. His biggest problem is he is NOT basketball aware.

I've said this the whole year. I cringe when we actually pass the ball to him. Both mentally (doesn't know what to do) and physically...really can't dribble to attack the rim or shoot very well.

Just my 2 cents

Although Manek is a good ball player he isn't athletic. Kur, athletic..but not a great ball player (basically rebounds/putbacks) which is fine
 
Last edited:
Soonerinkc said:
I'd agree.

Vic is suppose to be super athletic...?...can jump high? Honestly that's about all I see. He's avg on lateral speed. His biggest problem is he is NOT basketball aware.

I've said this the whole year. I cringe when we actually pass the ball to him. Both mentally (doesn't know what to do) and physically...really can't dribble to attack the rim or shoot very well.

Just my 2 cents


Although Manek is a good ball player he isn't athletic. Kur, athletic..but not a great ball player (basically rebounds/putbacks) which is fine
Click to expand...

Vic is a superb athlete. He just doesn’t know how to use his athleticism and his strength to an advantage yet. Players who grew up with the game know what to do instinctively. We tend to forget that Vic is still learning the game. Almost nothing he does is instinctive. He’s like the proverbial bull in a china shop sometimes.
 
thebigabd said:
Nail on head.... Roster management. It's been Lon's #1 problem.

But, let's address the Kur situation. I watched the highlights from the first game.

Kur in the game:
  • Contested shot that led to a miss
  • Contested shot that led to a miss
  • Offensive rebound and put back
  • Caught a lob for a dunk
  • Caught another lob for a dunk
  • Caught another lob for a dunk
  • Offensive rebound and put back dunk
  • Assist to Alondes for bucket and a foul after saving it from going out of bounds

I saw him get scored on 1 time... and it was Moncrieffe with a contested shot. Boone scored 6 points, none on Kuath.

Lon put in his best athlete in the first game, and he made the plays you expect from your best athlete. Monster dunks, alley oops, rebounds, contested shots, etc.

Then he played like one minute in the next game, and Manek didn't even attempt to guard the post. Watch the video. Manek gave Boone the easiest game of his life.

Play Kuath 30 minutes next to Manek in both games, and OU wins both games. I truly believe that. Why is Jalen Hill getting 13 minutes?

In the first game against OSU, Hill started the game, and played 13 minutes. 0 points, 0 assists, 0 blocks, 0 steals, and 3 rebounds. Kur played a similar number of minutes... 10 points, 4 rebounds, and 1 assist. Give Kur those 13 minutes. Probably has 15-6 or something, with big athletic plays. Jalen did absolutely nothing.

Then in the next game Kur doesn't even play, and Jalen Hill gets 10 minutes and does basically nothing.

What the hell is going on here?
Click to expand...

I agree with KK and Manek playing together, sit Gibson. Manek played 4 his first 3 years, but now is almost exclusively being used at the 5. He just doesn't fit there - rebounding and defensively. And yes, you might have to play zone with both in the game, but do it. Zone defense, played right, is not a concession that you can't play defense.
 
AdaSooner said:
Can’t argue with that, 04! I’m not sold on some of the projects we get myself.
Click to expand...

I'll give Lon a pass on Vic from a recruiting perspective. He has the best offer list on the team, by far. So there were a lot of really good programs who thought they could develop him. Which brings me to my other huge complaint... Why the hell hasn't he developed, and why can't Kruger and his staff even come close to developing bigs? It's at an embarrassing level..
 
Ah, I am still enjoying this team. We are very competitive and dangerous on most nights. I would be happy with some additional poise. Until then we can’t keep using Manek as our inside stopper. Not fair to anyone and mostly him. We are going to have to live with weaknesses but getting overly abused at the rim has to be reduced. That is how you lose to teams with less skills than you. Even then we are competitive and mostly fun to watch. This is the most I have enjoyed OU ball since Buddy. We can’t fix anything at this point so we just have to be a little smarter. Every possession matters with this team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
opsooner said:
Ah, I am still enjoying this team. We are very competitive and dangerous on most nights. I would be happy with some additional poise. Until then we can’t keep using Manek as our inside stopper. Not fair to anyone and mostly him. We are going to have to live with weaknesses but getting overly abused at the rim has to be reduced. That is how you lose to teams with less skills than you. Even then we are competitive and mostly fun to watch. This is the most I have enjoyed OU ball since Buddy. We can’t fix anything at this point so we just have to be a little smarter. Every possession matters with this team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Me too OP - love watching them go to battle. They play hard and for each other. Wonder if all the COVID mess really helped bond this team. It seems like even Alondes and Vic who are rarely playing is cheering from the bench.
 
opsooner said:
Ah, I am still enjoying this team. We are very competitive and dangerous on most nights. I would be happy with some additional poise. Until then we can’t keep using Manek as our inside stopper. Not fair to anyone and mostly him. We are going to have to live with weaknesses but getting overly abused at the rim has to be reduced. That is how you lose to teams with less skills than you. Even then we are competitive and mostly fun to watch. This is the most I have enjoyed OU ball since Buddy. We can’t fix anything at this point so we just have to be a little smarter. Every possession matters with this team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

:chestram2::chestram2:
 
Stikboy said:
I'll give Lon a pass on Vic from a recruiting perspective. He has the best offer list on the team, by far. So there were a lot of really good programs who thought they could develop him. Which brings me to my other huge complaint... Why the hell hasn't he developed, and why can't Kruger and his staff even come close to developing bigs? It's at an embarrassing level..
Click to expand...

On Vic, Lon gets a pass with me too. His athleticism is off the charts and he has above average potential. All he needs is more experience and a coach who can help him develop his game. It’s obvious Vic wants to be good. That’s another thing I like about him.
 
AdaSooner said:
On Vic, Lon gets a pass with me too. His athleticism is off the charts and he has above average potential. All he needs is more experience and a coach who can help him develop his game. It’s obvious Vic wants to be good. That’s another thing I like about him.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what he needs. Kruger has a great reputation with anything and everything related to guard play. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Lon hire an assistant that can develop today's bigs? Or, maybe OU could spring for the cash to send him to a big man camp? HAHA.

In all seriousness, i'm like you I see a kid that wants very badly to be good and contribute, and maybe even be a star. He has the potential. But he can't stay in the game because he's not being developed. None of the bigs are.

Could you imagine the team's potential if they had a guy inside that could average 15 and 10 and a backup that could go 8 or 9 and 6? Nevermind, I just woke up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

W
OU vs Michigan - Best Game I Ever Saw In Person!
2
Replies
38
Views
873
MsProudSooner
M
B
Thoughts from the Tech Game
2 3
Replies
44
Views
2K
WichitaSooner
W
C
Quick Intro and a few thoughts
2
Replies
20
Views
1K
opsooner
O
S
A theory on what’s causing a late year slump & maybe fewer wins this year
Replies
1
Views
2K
Soonerinkc
Soonerinkc
C
midseason observations
Replies
5
Views
2K
Boom Soon
B
Back
Top