Something is wrong

[SoonerSpock]

I don't think you quite have the idea of what a university is.

Spent as much time on one as have you and i know you have your doctorate. Also worked on a university for six years besides my schooling.

But then I do not think you know what is appropriate when representing a university instead of representing yourself and your ideas. The circumstances are different.

 

[SoonerSpock]

This discussion regarding Southern Cal's statement "Sherri doesn't do Edwards or Williams any favors by permitting them to stand with their arms to their side during the national anthem" is a classic example of my issue with their doing so.

I feel certain there is no reason to suspect that Edwards and William were protesting anything. They were merely not giving the normal respect given to the flag. It was obviously impactful based on the responses on this thread.

Southern Cal was correct that Sherri didn't do Edwards and Williams any favor by not having rules in place on how the team would represent itself during the national anthem. It is more than likely that had the rules been in place Edwards and Williams would both be on board with the rest of the team.

Failure to have the rules in place for the national anthem has resulted in team players presenting a negative image to many. Sherri could have easy avoided the incident had she taken a different approach.

I can easily see where Sherri has merely said be respectful during the anthem. Many will say Edwards and Williams were respectful. Many will think they have not been respectful. A few rules would have avoided the circumstance.

 

[sybarite]

Now I am not saying that anyone on the WBB team was protesting anything. However, Were I the coach there would be in place a team rule that all players will stand at attention with hand over their heart throughout the playing of the national anthem. The players would further know that failure to do so would be considered a team rules violation with consequences. That us is the image of uniformity I would want my team to represent.
.

So, you, as a representative of an institution of higher learning, supposedly one that values the principles of self-expression, would impose your specific national anthem etiquette. Of course, you realize that there was no national anthem until 1931, and our utilization of the national anthem etiquette was due to a war time effort and does not actually represent any law.

As a coach, you would probably be warranted in insisting that everyone wear the same uniform, unless he is very good and likes silver shoes. But, as the University of Missouri found, it is wise to let protest occur, perhaps even supporting it. For all you know, Williams and Edwards may be Jehovah's Witnesses, and it is a compromise even to stand for the anthem. You encourage freedom of thought. The idea of a university is to stimulate. The military has the need for uniformity.

Sooner Cal not Southern Cal.

 

[gwydion]

According to the United States Flag Code, “When the national anthem is played or sung, citizens should stand at attention and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the music.” Unless a military member in uniform, citizens should stand at ‘salute’ by placing their hand over their heart, facing the American Flag.

So now you have it, what you are supposed to do during the anthem. However I doubt it is even taught any more, so I really don't think the girls are intentionally being disrespectful. Obviously it isn't a problem with Sherri or she would explain and change it. And I don't even want to bring up the men's team.

 

[SoonerSpock]

So, you, as a representative of an institution of higher learning, supposedly one that values the principles of self-expression, would impose your specific national anthem etiquette. Of course, you realize that there was no national anthem until 1931, and our utilization of the national anthem etiquette was due to a war time effort and does not actually represent any law.

As a coach, you would probably be warranted in insisting that everyone wear the same uniform, unless he is very good and likes silver shoes. But, as the University of Missouri found, it is wise to let protest occur, perhaps even supporting it. For all you know, Williams and Edwards may be Jehovah's Witnesses, and it is a compromise even to stand for the anthem. You encourage freedom of thought. The idea of a university is to stimulate. The military has the need for uniformity.

Sooner Cal not Southern Cal.

Thanks for noting my not saying Sooner Cal.

Do you any here are ignorant of the fact that a university encourage freedom of thought and ideas. I think we all grasp that. We differ in opinions about how it is best to run an organization and the rules that organization should run under.

It is Sherri's and OU's team and she is running it the way she desires. That is her right. However her method creates some discord among her fans regarding team member behavior regarding the national anthem.

I did not see any intent of disrespect or protest by Edwards and Williams. I on the other hand would handle the issue differently than Sherri does in an effort to avoid any fan discord and develop more team unity.

I do think that if you are going to protest you should not do so when representing an entity that is not protesting jointly as that entity. I think it is unhealthy for the team. It is not the protest itself it is the protest in uniform that I take issue with team members doing.

 

[sybarite]

Thanks for noting my not saying Sooner Cal.

Do you any here are ignorant of the fact that a university encourage freedom of thought and ideas. I think we all grasp that. We differ in opinions about how it is best to run an organization and the rules that organization should run under.

It is Sherri's and OU's team and she is running it the way she desires. That is her right. However her method creates some discord among her fans regarding team member behavior regarding the national anthem.

I did not see any intent of disrespect or protest by Edwards and Williams. I on the other hand would handle the issue differently than Sherri does in an effort to avoid any fan discord and develop more team unity.

I do think that if you are going to protest you should not do so when representing an entity that is not protesting jointly as that entity. I think it is unhealthy for the team. It is not the protest itself it is the protest in uniform that I take issue with team members doing.

So, you are saying that you understand the concept of a university is to encourage freedom of thought and expression and the definition of principle. But, as a member of a sports team representing that university, you should not exhibit those principles?

 

[22dupree]

Obviously. I too support strongly the right to protest and would fight to maintain that right. But I do not support the display of that protest when in a uniform representing the basketball team and the university.

Now I am not saying that anyone on the WBB team was protesting anything. However, Were I the coach there would be in place a team rule that all players will stand at attention with hand over their heart throughout the playing of the national anthem. The players would further know that failure to do so would be considered a team rules violation with consequences. That us is the image of uniformity I would want my team to represent.

I feel strongly that the protests should be made as an individual or as a member of a protest group. To make a protest in the uniform of an entity that does not share your protest view is to potentially impose negative connotations toward that entity. I think that is wrong.

Just as I would if a member of the armed services in uniform failed to respond appropriately during the national anthem. That is my opinion as a veteran and an American. And I am equally entitled to that opinion.

So let me ask ... if indeed there is a protest view, does the entity disavow it?
And I would believe that any stance the entity would take on a potential protest view could possibly impose negative connotations toward it ... so is it negative connotations we want to avoid, or is it only the negative connotations from those who hold forms of power/influence we're concerned with?

This is an interesting topic and I appreciate the opportunity to share viewpoints as well as your take on the issue. Thanks for the educational and respectful discussion!

 

[womenssports]

So, you are saying that you understand the concept of a university is to encourage freedom of thought and expression and the definition of principle. But, as a member of a sports team representing that university, you should not exhibit those principles?

Point well-made.

 

[betterstill]

Perhaps Sherri agrees with George Takei:

The First Amendment gives them the right to stand with their hands at their side. i couldn't support a coach or university that tried to usurp First Amendment rights.

I agree with this comment.

 

[SoonerSpock]

So, you are saying that you understand the concept of a university is to encourage freedom of thought and expression and the definition of principle. But, as a member of a sports team representing that university, you should not exhibit those principles?

Yes! Not while wearing the uniform. Make your protest as an individual not representing your team or as a member of a group jointly protesting. The team needs not to be connected with the protest in any manner.

 

[soonerstar]

Yes! Not while wearing the uniform. Make your protest as an individual not representing your team or as a member of a group jointly protesting. The team needs not to be connected with the protest in any manner.

+1

 

[sybarite]

Yes! Not while wearing the uniform. Make your protest as an individual not representing your team or as a member of a group jointly protesting. The team needs not to be connected with the protest in any manner.

I don't think you quite get the contradiction in your position. You express the support for rights----as long as you don't express those rights.

 

[SoonerSpock]

I don't think you quite get the contradiction in your position. You express the support for rights----as long as you don't express those rights.

No contradiction you just don't understand the concept of voluntarily joining an organization and then abiding by the rules you accepted when joining.

 

[sybarite]

Which organization?

 

[SoonerSpock]

Which organization?

Duh!

 

[sybarite]

Duh!

I am quite serious. You can't be suggesting that the organization would be the University of Oklahoma or its basketball team. An institution whose function is to encourage principle and independence of thought would commit the hypocrisy of denying action on that right. You have just declared to all potential recruits that the team will not respect their values, and you have just opened up the University of Oklahoma for a Supreme Court suit on an issue that the Supreme Court has basically ruled upon with the flag-burning ruling.

So. What organization?

 

[betterstill]

I do not understand what the fuss is about if all they are doing is standing there. They are not carrying signs or making critical gestures. Not even kneeling or sitting down. I do not see why they should be made to hold their hands over their hearts.

I am a patriotic person and respectful of the National Anthem. When I grew up a lot of people including myself stood with their hands folded in front of them. I still do that and it is not a protest.

I consider my decision to be patriotic a rational one, and hand over heart to me implies an emotional attitude. That is just a person opinion and I do not expect nor care if others like to feel emotional about it.

Do any women's basketball coaches require their players to hold their hands over their hearts during the National Anthem?

 

[tycat947]

I do not understand what the fuss is about if all they are doing is standing there. They are not carrying signs or making critical gestures. Not even kneeling or sitting down. I do not see why they should be made to hold their hands over their hearts.

I am a patriotic person and respectful of the National Anthem. When I grew up a lot of people including myself stood with their hands folded in front of them. I still do that and it is not a protest.

I consider my decision to be patriotic a rational one, and hand over heart to me implies an emotional attitude. That is just a person opinion and I do not expect nor care if others like to feel emotional about it.

Do any women's basketball coaches require their players to hold their hands over their hearts during the National Anthem?

I agree! I noticed at men's game last night people all over that didn't have their "hand over their heart". Old people, young people, etc. This is just ridiculous.

 

[inoref]

Well maybe they will play better basketball if they "put their hand over their heart"

 

[OKUman]

I guess I am confused as why this is a discussion. Since Sherri has been coach, many times the girls stand with their hands behind their backs, or sway left and right during the singing of the anthem. And the men's team, and other schools who played here, during all those years and times, I did not see one person comment on it. What gives now?