Something is wrong

[betterstill]

Well maybe they will play better basketball if they "put their hand over their heart"

If that would somehow make them play better I would be all for it.

 

[SoonerSpock]

I am quite serious. You can't be suggesting that the organization would be the University of Oklahoma or its basketball team. An institution whose function is to encourage principle and independence of thought would commit the hypocrisy of denying action on that right. You have just declared to all potential recruits that the team will not respect their values, and you have just opened up the University of Oklahoma for a Supreme Court suit on an issue that the Supreme Court has basically ruled upon with the flag-burning ruling.

So. What organization?

Again, duh (a comment perceived as foolish or stupid) to your question. Per usual you are full of crap. When the player voluntarily must accept team rules as a condition of membership on a team and if they usurp these team rules they are subject to the consequences stated in the rule and may be even be potentially removed from the team with no violation of any individual rights. Team members and the team have in essence entered into a contract with consideration on the part of both parties and if one party is breaks that contract they are subject to the agreed up consequences for said violations.

The contract take precedence.

 

[sybarite]

Again, duh (a comment perceived as foolish or stupid) to your question. Per usual you are full of crap. When the player voluntarily must accept team rules as a condition of membership on a team and if they usurp these team rules they are subject to the consequences stated in the rule and may be even be potentially removed from the team with no violation of any individual rights. Team members and the team have in essence entered into a contract with consideration on the part of both parties and if one party is breaks that contract they are subject to the agreed up consequences for said violations.

The contract take precedence.

You are citing a rule that doesn't exist, is not likely to exist, and would probably lead to great problems if it did exist.

 

[inoref]

I guess I am confused as why this is a discussion. Since Sherri has been coach, many times the girls stand with their hands behind their backs, or sway left and right during the singing of the anthem. And the men's team, and other schools who played here, during all those years and times, I did not see one person comment on it. What gives now?

I dunno, I think it was John Wooden that told story when Bill Walton was there and didn't want to cut his hair. Bill insisted it was within his rights not to cut his hair. Wooden said yes it is...but it is my right to play who I want

 

[womenssports]

I dunno, I think it was John Wooden that told story when Bill Walton was there and didn't want to cut his hair. Bill insisted it was within his rights not to cut his hair. Wooden said yes it is...but it is my right to play who I want

And Wooden was wrong and had Bill fought it, he would have won. He was going to a public university just like OU. The thing is it is against the Constitution
for a Coach to impose his political, social or dress code on players. (and that is not to say that they cannot be required to wear their shirts in and/or be clean, but not determine hair styles) Just as it is against the Constitution for a coach to only take players with hers/his religious, political, etc. views. It is a public institution which has to abide by the Constitution. The coach doesn't get to say that you volunteered to play here. Every extracurricular activity sponsored by the University, falls under the Constitution and you do not give up those rights to play a sport. And many of those players were recruited and I bet there was no mention of saluting the flag or not saluting the flag.
Basic issue is public university must abide by Constitution.

 

[SoonerSpock]

You are citing a rule that doesn't exist, is not likely to exist, and would probably lead to great problems if it did exist.

Have some quirky personal rights advocate take a team to court for violating team rules they agreed to adhere to and see how far he gets in court.

In general term if there is an unambiguous offer to join the team and abide by the team rules and an unambiguous acceptance to join the team and abide by the team rules you have an implied contract enforceable by law.

It is simple if a player joins a team with rules concerning how they represent the team during the national anthem they have waived the right to protest during the national anthem without being subject to discipline for violating team rules.

This is a silly discussion regarding two kids that did not violate team rules nor were they totally disrespectful to the flag. But obviously they were offensive to some. To me a simplle team rule would avoid such circumstances. Period. End of discussion!

 

[Dcox]

Saw the thread saying something's wrong and was curious to what everyone opinions where on this team. And the hand over the heart was not what I was expecting wrong with this team. Sherri Coale is why I started watching women's basketball before that not so much. And her raising this program to higher standards and her well-paid salary should bring criticism. Sitting with my father who started me onto watching the women's basketball team. There is something wrong and it starts on the bench. That game the other night was absolutely head-scratching. To lose to Oral Roberts and how we lost is mind blowing. I don't know what she was thinking? Maybe she was thinking let them play through it and when they got close she couldn't put the genie back in the bottle? Edwards is not a starting point guard playing mostly 4 on five on the offensive end is head scratching. It seems everyone has a green light whether they can shoot or not. The head down I'm going to the hoop then charging is frustrating to watch. Her substitution patterns are confusing to me. Where not playing at the Y not everyone has to play. Penzo went from a cheerleader to getting significate playing time? Are we hurting for talent that much that she's playing? I'm just an armchair QB and far from an expert but for someone making a million bucks a year should have some heat . The talent level is down and that ends with coach Coale and her staff. Not one of her assistants would be in line for a head coaching job. So when you make what she makes should she get some heat? Or does Sherri get a pass?

 

[inoref]

Saw the thread saying something's wrong and was curious to what everyone opinions where on this team. And the hand over the heart was not what I was expecting wrong with this team. Sherri Coale is why I started watching women's basketball before that not so much. And her raising this program to higher standards and her well-paid salary should bring criticism. Sitting with my father who started me onto watching the women's basketball team. There is something wrong and it starts on the bench. That game the other night was absolutely head-scratching. To lose to Oral Roberts and how we lost is mind blowing. I don't know what she was thinking? Maybe she was thinking let them play through it and when they got close she couldn't put the genie back in the bottle? Edwards is not a starting point guard playing mostly 4 on five on the offensive end is head scratching. It seems everyone has a green light whether they can shoot or not. The head down I'm going to the hoop then charging is frustrating to watch. Her substitution patterns are confusing to me. Where not playing at the Y not everyone has to play. Penzo went from a cheerleader to getting significate playing time? Are we hurting for talent that much that she's playing? I'm just an armchair QB and far from an expert but for someone making a million bucks a year should have some heat . The talent level is down and that ends with coach Coale and her staff. Not one of her assistants would be in line for a head coaching job. So when you make what she makes should she get some heat? Or does Sherri get a pass?

IMO Sherri has already used up her pass

 

[soonerstar]

Saw the thread saying something's wrong and was curious to what everyone opinions where on this team. And the hand over the heart was not what I was expecting wrong with this team. Sherri Coale is why I started watching women's basketball before that not so much. And her raising this program to higher standards and her well-paid salary should bring criticism. Sitting with my father who started me onto watching the women's basketball team. There is something wrong and it starts on the bench. That game the other night was absolutely head-scratching. To lose to Oral Roberts and how we lost is mind blowing. I don't know what she was thinking? Maybe she was thinking let them play through it and when they got close she couldn't put the genie back in the bottle? Edwards is not a starting point guard playing mostly 4 on five on the offensive end is head scratching. It seems everyone has a green light whether they can shoot or not. The head down I'm going to the hoop then charging is frustrating to watch. Her substitution patterns are confusing to me. Where not playing at the Y not everyone has to play. Penzo went from a cheerleader to getting significate playing time? Are we hurting for talent that much that she's playing? I'm just an armchair QB and far from an expert but for someone making a million bucks a year should have some heat . The talent level is down and that ends with coach Coale and her staff. Not one of her assistants would be in line for a head coaching job. So when you make what she makes should she get some heat? Or does Sherri get a pass?

Great post. We have been going down since 2010. The last 7 years have produced between 11-15 losses. To answer your question, Coale does get a pass. Boren and Castiglione are infatuated with her as are many on this board. The beat goes on.

 

[HandyMan]

Honest question here not trying to flame this topic more than it already has, but how do we know the hands not on the heart are a protest? I was at the men's game today and for the most part neither team placed their hands over their heart. Some of the coaches didn't either. Is it a protest or just their way of standing during the anthem?

 

[sybarite]

Honest question here not trying to flame this topic more than it already has, but how do we know the hands not on the heart are a protest? I was at the men's game today and for the most part neither team placed their hands over their heart. Some of the coaches didn't either. Is it a protest or just their way of standing during the anthem?

We don't really. The various flag and anthem etiquettes are not as defined as some would think. I was watching a military group during the anthem a couple of days ago, and only those near the flag were exhibiting any form of etiquette. They weren't walking around, but they were turning in place to look at things.

Even while in the Army, I didn't see the national anthem played during the raising and lowering of the flag. I was only on flag detail once, and even then it was as the alternate. They simply blew a bugle, raised the flag, and saluted. No anthem. Even at a military post.

The history of all of this is interesting. Most of it is very recent, no earlier than the thirties.

 

[Soonerbay]

Honest question here not trying to flame this topic more than it already has, but how do we know the hands not on the heart are a protest? I was at the men's game today and for the most part neither team placed their hands over their heart. Some of the coaches didn't either. Is it a protest or just their way of standing during the anthem?

I don't believe it's a protest when the hand is not placed over the heart. A long, long time ago, when I was in elementary school...we were taught to place our hands over our hearts during the "Pledge of Allegiance". We then stood with our hands to our sides, hands folded in front of us or behind our backs as we sang "My Country Tis of Thee" (aka America).

Edit:
Furthermore...as the years have passed, we have lost many forms of respect for ANYTHING, and everybody is offended about everything except what we should be offended about. Everything is about "me, me,me"...that's the society in which we now live.

 

[bob the nailer]

You are dead wrong womenssports. You have no constitutional right to be on this basketball team. I am the coach. These are the rules. If I tell you to wear a tie when we travel and you don't I can remove you from the team. If I tell you to do anything associated with the team(hand over your heart) and you don't I can remove you from the team. Or even better keep you on the team but you don't play. I'm not removing you from school. But being on my team is a voluntary activity and you must submit to my rules to participate.

 

[soonermike22]

You are dead wrong womenssports. You have no constitutional right to be on this basketball team. I am the coach. These are the rules. If I tell you to wear a tie when we travel and you don't I can remove you from the team. If I tell you to do anything associated with the team(hand over your heart) and you don't I can remove you from the team. Or even better keep you on the team but you don't play. I'm not removing you from school. But being on my team is a voluntary activity and you must submit to my rules to participate.

Only rules that are fair will produce desired obedience. Unfair rules can and will produce unhappiness and reduced production not only in those directly effected, but their friends (teammates) are also often dissatisfied with unneeded dictatorial behavior.
We are not in a country where blind obedience to authority is required. A little common sense and decency is needed.

 

[SoonerSpock]

The hands not being over the heart is not a protest. At the Tulsa game there were 5 ladies that did not have their hands over their hearts. But all were standing quasi at attention and being respectful during the anthem. This is common place on virtually all teams.

 

[inoref]

And Wooden was wrong and had Bill fought it, he would have won. He was going to a public university just like OU. The thing is it is against the Constitution
for a Coach to impose his political, social or dress code on players. (and that is not to say that they cannot be required to wear their shirts in and/or be clean, but not determine hair styles) Just as it is against the Constitution for a coach to only take players with hers/his religious, political, etc. views. It is a public institution which has to abide by the Constitution. The coach doesn't get to say that you volunteered to play here. Every extracurricular activity sponsored by the University, falls under the Constitution and you do not give up those rights to play a sport. And many of those players were recruited and I bet there was no mention of saluting the flag or not saluting the flag.
Basic issue is public university must abide by Constitution.

Wooden was not wrong..

 

[womenssports]

You are dead wrong womenssports. You have no constitutional right to be on this basketball team. I am the coach. These are the rules. If I tell you to wear a tie when we travel and you don't I can remove you from the team. If I tell you to do anything associated with the team(hand over your heart) and you don't I can remove you from the team. Or even better keep you on the team but you don't play. I'm not removing you from school. But being on my team is a voluntary activity and you must submit to my rules to participate.

Sorry, no voluntary rules at a PUBLIC institution can violate one's legal rights.
ASK a knowledgeable attorney. EVEN Geno knows this.

 

[womenssports]

Wooden was not wrong..

He WAS legally wrong. You should check with a legal expert before stating a legal opinion as fact. Not angry, just saying that it is obvious some people on
here do not understand the legal issue they are addressing. Also, not trying to be hateful, but that flag you care so much about is supposed to be a representation of those rights.


quote on subject with pertinent response: "If they are on scholarship they do not have a right to do this." Indentured servitude, anyone?

 

[SoonerinNC]

Maybe the question is does a college student have a legal right to play sports.

 

[SoonerSpock]

He WAS legally wrong. You should check with a legal expert before stating a legal opinion as fact. Not angry, just saying that it is obvious some people on
here do not understand the legal issue they are addressing. Also, not trying to be hateful, but that flag you care so much about is supposed to be a representation of those rights.


quote on subject with pertinent response: "If they are on scholarship they do not have a right to do this." Indentured servitude, anyone?

Here is a copy of the OU student-athlete handbook. It is in essence the guideline for required student-athlete behavior by members of an athletic team and the receipt of financial aid. The meaty part relating to student behavior is contain primarily on pages 73-86.

Joining a team means compliance to these rules and constitutes a contract between the school, the team and the student athlete. It specifically states on page 76 that:

• Respect coaching decisions - voice concerns privately following team
procedures; and

• Exhibit dignity in manner and dress while representing OU both on and off
the field.

It further states on page 74:

At the beginning of each academic year, your coach will provide rules specific to your program. These rules are supplemental to and do not supersede the Student-Athlete Code of Conduct, Regent’s Policies, the University of Oklahoma Student Code of Responsibility and Conduct, as well as Big 12 Conference and NCAA policies and procedures. Failure to follow all applicable guidelines may result in termination of your status as a student-athlete and cancellation or reduction of your financial aid.

In general term if there is an unambiguous offer to join the team and abide by the team rules and an unambiguous acceptance to join the team and abide by the team rules you have consideration on the part of both parties and an implied contract enforceable by law.

Therefore if a player joins a team with rules concerning how they represent the team during the national anthem they have waived the right to protest during the national anthem without being subject to discipline for violating team rules.

Of course should they be disciplined for protesting in uniform they definitely have the right to appeal per the appeal process stated in the student-athlete handbook.

http://www.soonersports.com/pdf9/3751217.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=31000