Who was the better college player? Capel or Ford?

[stoops4pres]

How would Mike Anderson know? What has he won?

A Big 12 Tournament championship.

 

[Sawyer]

How would Mike Anderson know? What has he won?

20 more games through his first 8 years than Bill Self won.

 

[Cheno]

20 more games through his first 8 years than Bill Self won.

:facepalm
And yet, Anderson only makes the NCAA tourney at about a 60% clip.
Meanwhile Self has made 12 straight.

 

[Cheno]

A Big 12 Tournament championship.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that. I apologize. I'll rephrase.
Mike Anderson once had a GREAT 3 day run coaching basketball.
See.....I can give praise to a Mizzou guy.

 

[oSuJeff97]

:clap

And before someone goes there because they will. Just because he never won without Blake does not mean a damn thing. he recruited Blake. Also, Phil Jackson Never won without MJ or Kobe, Pat Riely never won without Magic or D-Wade, Popovich never won without Duncan, Robinson, Manu, and Parker. You have to have a superstar to win plain and simple.

Do you have to have a superstar to make the NIT?

Point being -

I don't think anyone expected OU to make the Elite Eight last year without Blake... but they sure didn't expect them to crash and burn and miss the postseason totally.

Yes Capel should be credited for landing Blake Griffin, but let's be honest here... it's not like it was a major stretch to land him. It's not as if Blake was some 5-star recruit from Chicago who Capel went and landed... he was a kid from OKC whose brother was on the roster at OU.

Yes, he still had to sell him on the program; but to not see certain built-in advantages in that process is looking at the situation with blinders.

And furthermore, every coach needs talent to win; certainly to win at a high level.

But Blake ended up being what most consider to be the second-best player in the history of the OU program.

So if the bottom line is that Capel needs to continually find someone who ends up being the second-best player in the history of the program in order to win, then I think that's a pretty tall order.

 

[stoops4pres]

Yes Capel should be credited for landing Blake Griffin, but let's be honest here... it's not like it was a major stretch to land him. It's not as if Blake was some 5-star recruit from Chicago who Capel went and landed... he was a kid from OKC whose brother was on the roster at OU.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was a tall-order to get him. Its pretty clear that OU had a nice advantage to sell Blake.

I will say though, that Capel deserves a good bit of credit for keeping Taylor around (which as a result helped land Blake). Some people don't know but Taylor was very close to transfering; I think Capel deserves a lot of credit for having Taylor believe in him enough to the point where he decided not to transfer.

But Blake ended up being what most consider to be the second-best player in the history of the OU program.

So if the bottom line is that Capel needs to continually find someone who ends up being the second-best player in the history of the program in order to win, then I think that's a pretty tall order.

You're right, he was the second best player ever to play at OU his sophomore season.

But he wasn't as a freshman, and OU still won and had a solid year.

 

[oSuJeff97]

I will say though, that Capel deserves a good bit of credit for keeping Taylor around (which as a result helped land Blake). Some people don't know but Taylor was very close to transfering; I think Capel deserves a lot of credit for having Taylor believe in him enough to the point where he decided not to transfer.

Well it's not as if Capel didn't have a very good reason to keep him around.

And anyway, Taylor was a very good Big 12 player in his own right.

You're right, he was the second best player ever to play at OU his sophomore season.

But he wasn't as a freshman, and OU still won and had a solid year.

The "second best player" thing is cumulative. It's pointless to split hairs about his freshman and sophomore years.

Let's put it this way: his freshman year he was one of the 10-15 best players in the country. His sophomore year he was the consensus best player in the country.

In those two years, Capel won a lot of games, including in the NCAA tournament.

In years when he didn't have Blake on the team, he has an overall losing record. I will say that some of that has extenuating circumstances involved, but until he shows that he CAN win without Blake, it's a legitimate question.

And again - the point is not that "Capel needs talent to win"... because everyone needs talent to win... the point is that "Capel needs Blake-Griffin level talent to win..." (so far)

The problem, of course, is that Blake Griffin level talent is hard to come by.

 

[Edmond_Sooner]

Well it's not as if Capel didn't have a very good reason to keep him around.

And anyway, Taylor was a very good Big 12 player in his own right.



The "second best player" thing is cumulative. It's pointless to split hairs about his freshman and sophomore years.

Let's put it this way: his freshman year he was one of the 10-15 best players in the country. His sophomore year he was the consensus best player in the country.

In those two years, Capel won a lot of games, including in the NCAA tournament.

In years when he didn't have Blake on the team, he has an overall losing record. I will say that some of that has extenuating circumstances involved, but until he shows that he CAN win without Blake, it's a legitimate question.

And again - the point is not that "Capel needs talent to win"... because everyone needs talent to win... the point is that "Capel needs Blake-Griffin level talent to win..." (so far)

The problem, of course, is that Blake Griffin level talent is hard to come by.

I cant disagree...

and Capel did have another year with Blake Griffin type of talent on his team and they failed miserably (last season)...i know they were young but that team underachieved massively, whatever the motives of the players were...

I love Capel but he has a lot to prove, i personally think he is a solid coach and want him around for as long as possible to build this program into a Final Four contender year in and year out...but this latest step back may be too hard to recover from...

This is a debate about Ford and Capel though, and honestly Ford hasnt done anything except be acceptable and average...and his first rounder has been on his team each season he has coached...so IMO it is more of a wash than anything else...

 

[thebigabd]

Well it's not as if Capel didn't have a very good reason to keep him around.

And anyway, Taylor was a very good Big 12 player in his own right.



The "second best player" thing is cumulative. It's pointless to split hairs about his freshman and sophomore years.

Let's put it this way: his freshman year he was one of the 10-15 best players in the country. His sophomore year he was the consensus best player in the country.

In those two years, Capel won a lot of games, including in the NCAA tournament.

In years when he didn't have Blake on the team, he has an overall losing record. I will say that some of that has extenuating circumstances involved, but until he shows that he CAN win without Blake, it's a legitimate question.

And again - the point is not that "Capel needs talent to win"... because everyone needs talent to win... the point is that "Capel needs Blake-Griffin level talent to win..." (so far)

The problem, of course, is that Blake Griffin level talent is hard to come by.

4 years is a large enough sample size. Good with the best player in the country (still no conference championships, conference tournament championships, final four, etc)... and under .500 without him.

There is a pretty good chance this years team finishes below .500 as well, and who knows what will happen after that.

 

[Sawyer]

:facepalm
And yet, Anderson only makes the NCAA tourney at about a 60% clip.
Meanwhile Self has made 12 straight.

To be precise, it's five of his first eight seasons as a head coach (compared to three of Self's first eight).

 

[Cheno]

To be precise, it's five of his first eight seasons as a head coach (compared to three of Self's first eight).

So what you're saying is Self is improving as a coach and Anderson is getting worse as the competition stiffens.

 

[thebigabd]

So what you're saying is Self is improving as a coach and Anderson is getting worse as the competition stiffens.

Thats ridiculous. Mike Anderson is a great coach and everyone knows it.

 

[stoops4pres]

Well it's not as if Capel didn't have a very good reason to keep him around.

And anyway, Taylor was a very good Big 12 player in his own right.

I think you misread my point, probably could have stated it better. I didn't mean that Capel didn't want Taylor but he decided to keep him around, obviously Capel wanted him there. I meant that Capel deserves credit for being able to keep Taylor there at OU, since Taylor was so close to transferring (which him staying helped influence Blake's decision).

The "second best player" thing is cumulative. It's pointless to split hairs about his freshman and sophomore years.

Let's put it this way: his freshman year he was one of the 10-15 best players in the country. His sophomore year he was the consensus best player in the country.

In those two years, Capel won a lot of games, including in the NCAA tournament.

In years when he didn't have Blake on the team, he has an overall losing record. I will say that some of that has extenuating circumstances involved, but until he shows that he CAN win without Blake, it's a legitimate question.

And again - the point is not that "Capel needs talent to win"... because everyone needs talent to win... the point is that "Capel needs Blake-Griffin level talent to win..." (so far)

The problem, of course, is that Blake Griffin level talent is hard to come by.

I can't disagree with what you're saying, only that its not splitting hairs between his freshman and sophomore years. While he was a stud his freshman year, I don't think there's any debating how much better he was his sophomore year. But since you were going by a cumulative basis, then that's immaterial.

Like you said it remains to be seen if he can win without Blake, but since we're on the discussion of Ford vs. Capel, I'll just restate what I said earlier: The jury's still out on who's ultimately better IMO, and right now its up in the air.

 

[stoops4pres]

This is a debate about Ford and Capel though, and honestly Ford hasnt done anything except be acceptable and average...and his first rounder has been on his team each season he has coached...so IMO it is more of a wash than anything else...

+1. Basically what I was saying earlier, except you had a better way of putting it.

 

[Cheno]

Thats ridiculous. Mike Anderson is a great coach and everyone knows it.

Then you use the word "great" loosely.
Personally, I'd call him a good coach.

 

[oSuJeff97]

This is a debate about Ford and Capel though, and honestly Ford hasnt done anything except be acceptable and average...and his first rounder has been on his team each season he has coached...so IMO it is more of a wash than anything else...

"Acceptable and average"...? He made the NCAA tournament two years in a row after OSU had missed the tournament for 3 consecutive years.

He did have a good core of Eaton, Anderson and Muenelo, but little else. Do you not remember all of the debates about OSU the past two years in terms of having no depth, especially in the front court?

Given that none of the players on the roster had any experince being a Tournament team, and the gernal lack of depth, I think Ford has done a very good job.

This year will determine if he's doing a "great" job.

4 years is a large enough sample size. Good with the best player in the country (still no conference championships, conference tournament championships, final four, etc)... and under .500 without him.

I'm willing to cut him some slack over last year. You might blame him for bringing in some questionable character guys like TMG and Tiny, but I still think had Warren been 100% healthy, last year would have looked a lot different.

I don't think they make the Tournament, but they maybe string enough wins together to at least have a winning record an go NIT... not crash and burn to 4-12.

Like you said it remains to be seen if he can win without Blake, but since we're on the discussion of Ford vs. Capel, I'll just restate what I said earlier: The jury's still out on who's ultimately better IMO, and right now its up in the air.

I'll go along with that, with the caveat that it looks to be trending toward Ford right now. He's 2-for-2 in making the NCAA tournament...

That said - this year will go a long way as to determining if that trend remains intact.