Buddy Makes Wooden Top 20

[Zimwillett]

I don't know that I agree. I don't think I sit Thomas or Spangler for Nash. I know I don't sit Hield. Nash is not near the rebounder that Thomas and Spangler are. He also is not as efficient as Spangler or Thomas. He does average a few more points but it is 16.4 not 17.1 and he is the third leading scorer. If he can't defend the post as well, I guaranty I don't sit Spangler or Thomas for him.

You're really going to make me do this? From the Big 12 Site updated today:

1.Hield, Buddy-OU.......... JR 24 146 67 63 422 17.6
2.Nash, Le'Bryan-OSU....... SR 23 131 2 130 394 17.1

And it's not just a "few points" more per game. It's 6+ over both Thomas (11.0) and Spangler (10.9). That's significant. As for rebounding, he averages 5.6, Thomas averages 6.2. If you're asking me to give up .6 rebounds per game for 6 points per game, I make that trade every time.

Look, I dislike Nash as much as the next guy, but if I'm being objective, I recognize his talent and that he would undoubtedly start on this team.

 

[BoulderSooner]

nash can't play the 3 .... and would not start over either spangler or thomas

 

[Max Power]

You're really going to make me do this? From the Big 12 Site updated today:

1.Hield, Buddy-OU.......... JR 24 146 67 63 422 17.6
2.Nash, Le'Bryan-OSU....... SR 23 131 2 130 394 17.1

And it's not just a "few points" more per game. It's 6+ over both Thomas (11.0) and Spangler (10.9). That's significant. As for rebounding, he averages 5.6, Thomas averages 6.2. If you're asking me to give up .6 rebounds per game for 6 points per game, I make that trade every time.

Look, I dislike Nash as much as the next guy, but if I'm being objective, I recognize his talent and that he would undoubtedly start on this team.

Would he get 17 points a game is he had to share the court with Buddy, Cousins, Woodard, and either one of Spangler or thomas? There is only one ball and right now he is the #2 option on his team. He would be the #4 option on our team.

 

[garyeb2]

You're really going to make me do this? From the Big 12 Site updated today:

1.Hield, Buddy-OU.......... JR 24 146 67 63 422 17.6
2.Nash, Le'Bryan-OSU....... SR 23 131 2 130 394 17.1

And it's not just a "few points" more per game. It's 6+ over both Thomas (11.0) and Spangler (10.9). That's significant. As for rebounding, he averages 5.6, Thomas averages 6.2. If you're asking me to give up .6 rebounds per game for 6 points per game, I make that trade every time.

Look, I dislike Nash as much as the next guy, but if I'm being objective, I recognize his talent and that he would undoubtedly start on this team.

You are making the most flimsy superficial argument imaginable. Nash is a nice player. He gets his opportunities because he is one of OSU's best players.

But, he wouldn't be one of the best players on a lot of teams. OU is one of those teams. OSU is a cut below OU this season because Nash and Forte are the best players they can come up with.

There is no telling how many points Thomas would average if he were at OSU instead of Nash and was the 1st and only interior offensive option. Same with a player like Cousins. If he were at OSU instead of Forte he cold very well be leading the conference in scoring.

The kind of statistical comparisons that you are making are just not valid. I have made the same arguement the other direction too. Four years ago, when we weren't any good and Pledger and Fitz were filling up the stat line, they were the best players we had. But, their stats were not evidence that they were the equal of players on good teams.

Nash and Forte are doing a fine job where they are at. OSU is lucky to have them. Make no mistake, they are off the bench role players for a good team.

 

[Zimwillett]

nash can't play the 3 .... and would not start over either spangler or thomas

I'll grant you Spangler. That guy does work on the boards that Nash doesn't. But Thomas? What is the argument there? Other than maybe shooting % (Nash 45.6%, Thomas 53.4%), Thomas is not appreciably better than Nash in any significant statistical category. Nash, on the other hand, has a sizable advantage in the scoring department.

On the defensive side, it's not like Thomas brings anything extraordinary. I don't see him as a lock down post defender and he's not that much better at blocking shots than Nash. So what's the argument for Thomas?

To me, the only thing that would keep Nash on OU's bench would be his turd attitude. Of course, that's something you can't really quantify. Please don't take any of this as a knock on TaShawn. I just think you all are letting your justifiable hatred for Nash and OSU cloud your judgment.

 

[Max Power]

I'll grant you Spangler. That guy does work on the boards that Nash doesn't. But Thomas? What is the argument there? Other than maybe shooting % (Nash 45.6%, Thomas 53.4%), Thomas is not appreciably better than Nash in any significant statistical category. Nash, on the other hand, has a sizable advantage in the scoring department.

On the defensive side, it's not like Thomas brings anything extraordinary. I don't see him as a lock down post defender and he's not that much better at blocking shots than Nash. So what's the argument for Thomas?

To me, the only thing that would keep Nash on OU's bench would be his turd attitude. Of course, that's something you can't really quantify. Please don't take any of this as a knock on TaShawn. I just think you all are letting your justifiable hatred for Nash and OSU cloud your judgment.

Thomas shares the floor with 4 better players than Nash does. That will have an affect on his numbers. Nash would not average 17 points a game at OU.

 

[Zimwillett]

You are making the most flimsy superficial argument imaginable. Nash is a nice player. He gets his opportunities because he is one of OSU's best players.

But, he wouldn't be one of the best players on a lot of teams. OU is one of those teams. OSU is a cut below OU this season because Nash and Forte are the best players they can come up with.

There is no telling how many points Thomas would average if he were at OSU instead of Nash and was the 1st and only interior offensive option. Same with a player like Cousins. If he were at OSU instead of Forte he cold very well be leading the conference in scoring.

The kind of statistical comparisons that you are making are just not valid. I have made the same arguement the other direction too. Four years ago, when we weren't any good and Pledger and Fitz were filling up the stat line, they were the best players we had. But, their stats were not evidence that they were the equal of players on good teams.

Nash and Forte are doing a fine job where they are at. OSU is lucky to have them. Make no mistake, they are off the bench role players for a good team.

Nash averaged 14 ppg with Smart and Brown on the team with him. He averaged over 13+ ppg every single year at OSU (including as a true frosh). So it's not like he couldn't score before and then suddenly lucked into a scoring vacuum. He has proven over the course of 4 years with various lineups that he can score. Granted, his numbers are up this season, but that's what you'd hope for from a senior. To act like he'd be a non-factor on OU's lineup, given his 4 year body of work, is fatuous as is any comparison to Pledger or Andrew Fitzgerald.

This entire argument is speculative (and pretty pointless). The statistics are the only thing that could be arguably considered objective. That's why I rely heavily on them. Everything else is subjective.

 

[Max Power]

Nash averaged 14 ppg with Smart and Brown on the team with him. He averaged over 13+ ppg every single year at OSU (including as a true frosh). So it's not like he couldn't score before and then suddenly lucked into a scoring vacuum. He has proven over the course of 4 years with various lineups that he can score. Granted, his numbers are up this season, but that's what you'd hope for from a senior. To act like he'd be a non-factor on OU's lineup, given his 4 year body of work, is fatuous as is any comparison to Pledger or Andrew Fitzgerald.

This entire argument is speculative (and pretty pointless). The statistics are the only thing that could be arguably considered objective. That's why I rely heavily on them. Everything else is subjective.

Us sweeping osu the last two years is not subjective. That actually happened. osu hasnt swept OU since 2004. that is also not subjective.

 

[garyeb2]

Nash averaged 14 ppg with Smart and Brown on the team with him. He averaged over 13+ ppg every single year at OSU (including as a true frosh). So it's not like he couldn't score before and then suddenly lucked into a scoring vacuum. He has proven over the course of 4 years with various lineups that he can score. Granted, his numbers are up this season, but that's what you'd hope for from a senior. To act like he'd be a non-factor on OU's lineup, given his 4 year body of work, is fatuous as is any comparison to Pledger or Andrew Fitzgerald.

This entire argument is speculative (and pretty pointless). The statistics are the only thing that could be arguably considered objective. That's why I rely heavily on them. Everything else is subjective.

You heavy reliance on these types of statistical comparisons ensures that you will be forever lost in the fog.

 

[DenverSooner]

You're really going to make me do this? From the Big 12 Site updated today:

1.Hield, Buddy-OU.......... JR 24 146 67 63 422 17.6
2.Nash, Le'Bryan-OSU....... SR 23 131 2 130 394 17.1

And it's not just a "few points" more per game. It's 6+ over both Thomas (11.0) and Spangler (10.9). That's significant. As for rebounding, he averages 5.6, Thomas averages 6.2. If you're asking me to give up .6 rebounds per game for 6 points per game, I make that trade every time.

Look, I dislike Nash as much as the next guy, but if I'm being objective, I recognize his talent and that he would undoubtedly start on this team.

Those numbers reflect the full season. Mine reflect conference games. To me conference games is a better measure.

 

[Zimwillett]

Us sweeping osu the last two years is not subjective. That actually happened. osu hasnt swept OU since 2004. that is also not subjective.

Hahaha. This might be the first time in my life I've been mistaken for an OSU fan. That hurts me to my core and tells me I need to let this one go. I was wrong. F--- Le'Bryan Nash. He wouldn't crack OU's top 10. Trey Slate would come in before that bum.

I feel better now. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[DenverSooner]

Nash averaged 14 ppg with Smart and Brown on the team with him. He averaged over 13+ ppg every single year at OSU (including as a true frosh). So it's not like he couldn't score before and then suddenly lucked into a scoring vacuum. He has proven over the course of 4 years with various lineups that he can score. Granted, his numbers are up this season, but that's what you'd hope for from a senior. To act like he'd be a non-factor on OU's lineup, given his 4 year body of work, is fatuous as is any comparison to Pledger or Andrew Fitzgerald.

This entire argument is speculative (and pretty pointless). The statistics are the only thing that could be arguably considered objective. That's why I rely heavily on them. Everything else is subjective.

Nash is a very good player. However, I don't know that I would take him over Spangler or Thomas. Rebounding is crucial. Spangler averages 7.7 rebounds per game and Thomas averages 7.3. Nash averages less than 5.1. Thomas and Spangler both block more shots (this is not a huge difference but it is a difference). Nash scores 16.4 points in conference play. Spangler averages 11.8 and Thomas averages 11. 3. The largest spread is 5.1 points. Spangler has a .600 shooting percentage. Thomas has a .487 shooting percentage. Nash has a .443 shooting percentage. Nash has missed 93 shots. Spangler has missed 36. Thomas has missed 60. Those 33 missed shots (compared to Thomas) matter. If Nash only gets 117 shots (like Thomas) and makes .443 he is averaging less points per game than Thomas (ignoring 3 point shots).

When you look at these guys in depth it is not a certainty that Nash starts at OU. I am positive he would be one of the top 6 players at OU. I just think when you look at the numbers, it is really close and you go with the better defender. I am not sure who is the better defender.

Another thing you need to consider is how a guy scores. If Nash is hitting pull up jumpers, OU already has that skill. They need points in the paint. Points in the paint open up outside shots for the other players. Unless Nash could average 11.3 points per game on the same shots as Thomas and rebound as well as Thomas, you don't start Nash over Thomas.

I don't even see an argument that you start Nash over Spangler. The percentage shooting, rebounding and defense clearly make him the more productive player. There is a lot more to basketball than scoring points. LMU scored a ton of points in the late 80s with Hank Gathers but rarely beat the better teams.

 

[DenverSooner]

Hahaha. This might be the first time in my life I've been mistaken for an OSU fan. That hurts me to my core and tells me I need to let this one go. I was wrong. F--- Le'Bryan Nash. He wouldn't crack OU's top 10. Trey Slate would come in before that bum.

I feel better now. Sorry for the confusion.

Well done but I do think Nash plays before Trey Slate. I actually think there is no doubt he would be the sixth man. I am just not positive he starts over Thomas and feel confident he does not start over Hield or Spangler.

Honestly, I think Hickey would have the best chance at starting for OU but I doubt I would do that because I like Woodard's free throw shooting late in the game. However, his three point shooting and higher assist to turn over ratio might offset his lower free throw shooting. If Woodard could convert 3s at .396 like Hickey, OU would probably be a top 5 team simply because OU would be so difficult to defend.

 

[WaymanFan]

Hahaha. This might be the first time in my life I've been mistaken for an OSU fan. That hurts me to my core and tells me I need to let this one go. I was wrong. F--- Le'Bryan Nash. He wouldn't crack OU's top 10. Trey Slate would come in before that bum.

I feel better now. Sorry for the confusion.

Sadly, every OU fan who says something positive about OSU and has a low post count, is accused of being an OSU fan in disguise. Why should you be treated any differently

Le'Bryan Nash would start on this OU team.

 

[DenverSooner]

Sadly, every OU fan who says something positive about OSU and has a low post count, is accused of being an OSU fan in disguise. Why should you be treated any differently

Le'Bryan Nash would start on this OU team.

At which position. He clearly does not start over Spangler or Hield. He can't play the 1 or 2. It is not remotely a given he starts over Thomas. Thomas rebounds better, blocks more shots, has a higher shooting percentage, scores his points in the low post and likely is a better post defender. 5.1 points per game does not necessarily overcome all of that.

 

[CoachTalk]

At which position. He clearly does not start over Spangler or Hield. He can't play the 1 or 2. It is not remotely a given he starts over Thomas. Thomas rebounds better, blocks more shots, has a higher shooting percentage, scores his points in the low post and likely is a better post defender. 5.1 points per game does not necessarily overcome all of that.

+1

 

[152219]

At which position. He clearly does not start over Spangler or Hield. He can't play the 1 or 2. It is not remotely a given he starts over Thomas. Thomas rebounds better, blocks more shots, has a higher shooting percentage, scores his points in the low post and likely is a better post defender. 5.1 points per game does not necessarily overcome all of that.

Agreed.

And that takes nothing away from Nash but there isn't a logical place for him in OU's starting roster unless you think he replaces Spangler at the 4 or slide Spangler down to the 5 to replace Thomas and have Nash play the 4, but then that weakens OU defensively.

Regardless, I really like OU's starting 5 and cannot wait to see the rest of the season. If Booker and Lattin continue to play well and Walker can give a few minutes of quality play off the bench, this team could make some serious noise.

 

[campbest]

Honestly, I think Hickey would have the best chance at starting for OU but I doubt I would do that because I like Woodard's free throw shooting late in the game.

Denver gonna Denver.

 

[campbest]

Does Nash start? I don't know, he may not "fit" as well on this team as he does for OSU. It's a grey area. Nash is a better basketball player, but that doesn't matter when it comes to starting.

This is always a fun argument, some people discount Nash for certain reasons but then completely ignore the same situation years ago for Cade Davis when talking about how good he is. People see what they want to see.

 

[DenverSooner]

Free Throw shooting by a pg is extremely important late in close games. If you don't have that, your odds of losing are much higher. Hickey is an inexplicable .370 from the line on the season. I don't even understand how that is possible given his conference 3 point shooting.

You honestly want a .370 free throw shooter handling the ball late in a close game? I think you have to put him on the bench and let your backup play. Especially if you are in the one and one.