Buddy Makes Wooden Top 20

[thebigabd]

At which position. He clearly does not start over Spangler or Hield. He can't play the 1 or 2. It is not remotely a given he starts over Thomas. Thomas rebounds better, blocks more shots, has a higher shooting percentage, scores his points in the low post and likely is a better post defender. 5.1 points per game does not necessarily overcome all of that.

He would start over Spangler or Thomas, one of them.

 

[CoachTalk]

He would start over Spangler or Thomas, one of them.

NO WAY... What does he bring that is better than those 2?

 

[TheGimper]

NO WAY... What does he bring that is better than those 2?

He's definitely better at staring down referees when he disagrees with a call.

 

[DenverSooner]

He would start over Spangler or Thomas, one of them.

There is no way he starts over Spangler. Look at the freaking numbers. Spangler converts 60% of his attempts. Spangler stretches the defense by converting 3 pointers (Nash doesn't he is 2-18 or 11% on the season). Spangler averages 7.7 rebounds a game compared to less than 5.1 for Nash. Spangler blocks more shots. Spangler has 28 fewer turn overs on the season. Spangler has more steals on the season (only 2 more). The only thing Nash does better is score 4.6 points more per game. Only a fool takes Spangler out of the lineup for 4.6 points given all the other information.

He might replace Thomas but it would take a lot more information than 5.1 points per game to make that decision. Where does Nash Score, how does he score, how is his post defense, etc. What you know for a fact is that Thomas takes fewer shots (a lot fewer), converts at a higher percentage, rebounds better, turns the ball over less, has more assists and blocks more shots. (When data is available for Big XII games only, I am using that, if not I use the season box scores from each team).

 

[DenverSooner]

NO WAY... What does he bring that is better than those 2?

5.1 points over Thomas and 4.6 over Spangler. That is it.

 

[campbest]

Free Throw shooting by a pg is extremely important late in close games. If you don't have that, your odds of losing are much higher. Hickey is an inexplicable .370 from the line on the season. I don't even understand how that is possible given his conference 3 point shooting.

You honestly want a .370 free throw shooter handling the ball late in a close game? I think you have to put him on the bench and let your backup play. Especially if you are in the one and one.

Why does it matter who starts when you're talking about a late game scenario?

 

[DenverSooner]

Why does it matter who starts when you're talking about a late game scenario?

You don't want to bring a guy off the bench to play crunch time that hasn't played a lot of minutes in the game. It is a tremendous amount of pressure.

The only thing Hickey really distinguished himself at is three point shooting. It is simply a decision. Do you want free throw shooting or three point shooting. I could live with either player, but I have to put my starter on the bench at the most important time of a close game with Hickey. No descent coach would ignore that fact when making this decision.

I clearly stated that I thought Hickey had the best chance of starting for OU. It is not like I think Woodard is clearly better. I just prefer his free throw shooting.

 

[Zimwillett]

NO WAY... What does he bring that is better than those 2?

Denver's attempt at statistical sleight of hand notwithstanding, Nash does average 6.1 points more per game than Thomas on the season. I'd say that's better. In every other statistical category, they're actually pretty close.

I think campbest said it best...people see what they want. It's a close call. I just think some OU fans are underestimating Nash and overestimating Thomas based on hatred/homerism.

 

[DenverSooner]

Denver's attempt at statistical sleight of hand notwithstanding, Nash does average 6.1 points more per game than Thomas on the season. I'd say that's better. In every other statistical category, they're actually pretty close.

I think campbest said it best...people see what they want. It's a close call. I just think some OU fans are underestimating Nash and overestimating Thomas based on hatred/homerism.

They played different competition. If you have Big XII numbers those are better than season numbers. When facing the same level of competition, it is 5.1 points per game.

Nash is very good. I have simply said it is not a given. There are a lot more factors that need to be considered than total points per game. Attempts, field goal percentage and rebounding are huge. If Thomas took the same number of attempts, he would score more than Nash based on the numbers.

It is false to say they are close in every other category. 7.3 rebounds per game compared to 5.0 (at best) is 46% better. The scoring difference is 45% and that completely ignores percentage and shot attempts. Even the stats that are close are not as marginal as you would suggest.

 

[BoulderSooner]

Does Nash start? I don't know, he may not "fit" as well on this team as he does for OSU. It's a grey area. Nash is a better basketball player, but that doesn't matter when it comes to starting.

This is always a fun argument, some people discount Nash for certain reasons but then completely ignore the same situation years ago for Cade Davis when talking about how good he is. People see what they want to see.

Nash is a better basketball player than woodard .. but that is it as far as the OU starters ..

and he can't play the 1 2 or 3 .. so he would not start at OU ..

he is a very very good athlete (and that takes you a long way in college basketball) .... but that is the best thing he has going for him

 

[BoulderSooner]

Denver's attempt at statistical sleight of hand notwithstanding, Nash does average 6.1 points more per game than Thomas on the season. I'd say that's better. In every other statistical category, they're actually pretty close.

I think campbest said it best...people see what they want. It's a close call. I just think some OU fans are underestimating Nash and overestimating Thomas based on hatred/homerism.

its not a close call

 

[garyeb2]

Denver's attempt at statistical sleight of hand notwithstanding, Nash does average 6.1 points more per game than Thomas on the season. I'd say that's better. In every other statistical category, they're actually pretty close.

I think campbest said it best...people see what they want. It's a close call. I just think some OU fans are underestimating Nash and overestimating Thomas based on hatred/homerism.

I thought you were going to let this go. Here is how you have lost your way. Evaluating basketball talent IS, for the most part, a subjective undertaking. It is a right brain activity. It is not, for the most part, a left brain objective activity.

Nash's stats were compiled within the context of the role he plays on the team he plays for against the teams they played when they played them. They are just data points. They are not evidence one way or the other.

 

[skyvue]

I just think some OU fans are underestimating Nash and overestimating Thomas based on hatred/homerism.

I think attitude and levelheadedness enter into it, too. Stats simply don't tell the whole story. And including the whole season's stats could be said to be a questionable approach too, given that a) Thomas spent much of the non-conference season getting his game legs back, since he wasn't notified he would be eligible until the night before the first game and b) oswho played a weaker schedule.

I think Nash's stats also are inflated given who plays with in the paint. When you're playing alongside the likes of Cobbins, Allen, and Solomon, you'd better be scoring plenty.

 

[DenverSooner]

I don't believe he needed to get his legs, I think he needed to figure out his role.

To me non conference stats are not as reliable because the competition is very different. By the end of the conference the schedules will be identical and they are fairly similar at this point. Even if overall schedules are similar in strength, the best non conference team OSU plays might have great guard play while the best non conference team OU plays might have great forwards. I am certainly not saying that is actually the case, I am simply saying it is a much more difficult comparison than conference games.

 

[152219]

I think attitude and levelheadedness enter into it, too. Stats simply don't tell the whole story. And including the whole season's stats could be said to be a questionable approach too, given that a) Thomas spent much of the non-conference season getting his game legs back, since he wasn't notified he would be eligible until the night before the first game and b) oswho played a weaker schedule.

I think Nash's stats also are inflated given who plays with in the paint. When you're playing alongside the likes of Cobbins, Allen, and Solomon, you'd better be scoring plenty.

Here are the stat lines for each team's starting front line during conference play

Thomas/Spangler, 23.1 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 4.1 apg, 40 blocks, and 15 steals

Nash/Cobbins 21.3 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.3 apg, 41 blocks, and 17 steals

Individual scoring

Nash 16.4
Spangler 11.8
Thomas 11.3
Cobbins 4.9

Does Nash score less if Cobbins had an offensive game? Likely.

 

[skyvue]

I don't believe he needed to get his legs, I think he needed to figure out his role.

You put it better than I did. Meshing needed to occur, is what I'm saying. Nash was playing his fourth season with (some of) the same guys and in the same system, under the same coach. Thomas was playing, on short notice, with a whole new set of teammates, under new coaches and in a new system.

 

[Max Power]

Hahaha. This might be the first time in my life I've been mistaken for an OSU fan. That hurts me to my core and tells me I need to let this one go. I was wrong. F--- Le'Bryan Nash. He wouldn't crack OU's top 10. Trey Slate would come in before that bum.

I feel better now. Sorry for the confusion.

Has nothing to do with you being a fan of anyone. It has to do with you refusing to look at who Nash plays with and seeing that is is a worse basketball team than the one he would play on if he went to OU. He would have less shot attempts because he would have to share shots with Spangler down low, and Buddy and Isaiah on the Perimeter. Right now he shares with Forte. That's it.

If you can't see that then you need to study the game a little bit more

 

[Max Power]

Here are the stat lines for each team's starting front line during conference play

Thomas/Spangler, 23.1 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 4.1 apg, 40 blocks, and 15 steals

Nash/Cobbins 21.3 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.3 apg, 41 blocks, and 17 steals

Individual scoring

Nash 16.4
Spangler 11.8
Thomas 11.3
Cobbins 4.9

Does Nash score less if Cobbins had an offensive game? Likely.

This is the point i have been trying to make. thanks for the research.

 

[Zimwillett]

Has nothing to do with you being a fan of anyone. It has to do with you refusing to look at who Nash plays with and seeing that is is a worse basketball team than the one he would play on if he went to OU. He would have less shot attempts because he would have to share shots with Spangler down low, and Buddy and Isaiah on the Perimeter. Right now he shares with Forte. That's it.

If you can't see that then you need to study the game a little bit more

So what do you make of his performance when he shared the floor Marcus Smart, Markel Brown, and Phil Forte? Does that impact your analysis at all?

 

[campbest]

At least we settled the Cade Davis argument...took three years, but you guys finally came around.

Cheers!