Could Fitz, M'Baye, and Osby all start next year?

If OU is going to play the up tempo style that LK wants then M'Baye and Osby have to start along side 3 guards.

Groom, Blair, Pledger, M'Baye, Osby

I doubt that is our starting lineup next season. I think Hield and Hornbeak will both be better than Blair. Regardless, I don't think any of those three guys starts next season.
 
You are making up things again. I never said he was a streaky shooter. There is no such thing as a streaky shooter. I could explain that to you if you ever cared to learn something new.

What I have said is that when well defended. He is no kind of shooter at all.[/QUOTE]

What a dumb statement. He has been the focal point of Big 12 defenses all year. We have zero other guards that consistently hit from the outside (Neal barely sees the floor anymore) which makes it even more difficult to do what he has been doing. Pledger has hit big, contested shots his whole career. Did you watch the Kstate game on Saturday? Amazing what you will do to defend your early season predictions...

And I will bite, why can't a shooter be a streaky shooter....
 
Pledger has exceeded all expectations this season. He is creating his shot better than most thought he could. He is stronger, quicker, more explosive, etc.

The guy deserves nothing but praise.
 
Im hoping I misunderstood your post, but are you speculating that someone else is about to quit this year? Or that with all the talent next year you think there could be a repeat of Cal?

All I'm speculating on is that either someone that has pretty much started his entire career at OU is not going to start OR a guy that transferred in that is allegedly good enough to start is NOT going to start. When that situation occurs, it becomes an issue, sort of like it obviously was with Cal.
 
If we still had Newell and DID NOT have Pledger or Fitz, we would obviously be undefeated this season.

LOL! I'm being facetious, of course. But that's ALMOST what I seem to be reading from a small number of posters.
 
You are making up things again. I never said he was a streaky shooter. There is no such thing as a streaky shooter. I could explain that to you if you ever cared to learn something new.

What I have said is that when well defended. He is no kind of shooter at all.[/QUOTE]

What a dumb statement. He has been the focal point of Big 12 defenses all year. We have zero other guards that consistently hit from the outside (Neal barely sees the floor anymore) which makes it even more difficult to do what he has been doing. Pledger has hit big, contested shots his whole career. Did you watch the Kstate game on Saturday? Amazing what you will do to defend your early season predictions...

And I will bite, why can't a shooter be a streaky shooter....

K St is a fine example of what Pledger does well. St lois,Cincy, Missouri,Kansas, and on and on are examples of how ineffective he can be rendered. Sure, opposing defenses try to make Pledgers job hard. So what. Everyone has a hard job.

Pledger's job is to be the primary scorer. It certainly is not to play defense. It isn't to get the ball up court or anything else. There is only one thing he is capable of doing really well ,and that is his primary job, score. So, in trying to estimate Pledger's value to the team, the question is, how often can he do his job well even though it is hard. No one expects him to do his hard job well everytime.It would take a legit star to do that. My position is and continues to be that he deosn't do his hard job well often enough to warrent this cult like worship that he gets. Ecpecially considering the obvious fact that he is a liabiity in many other areas. That is my response and thank you for the considerate and respectful manner that you choose to disagree.

Now, the steak shooter question. I'm not at home so I can not access the book I neeed to cite the study. All I can do is report on the study.

A group of statistical economist conducted a 3 yr study of NBA players. The purpose of the study was either to prove or disprove the existence of the phenominam know as streak shooters.

The premise was that if streak shooters existed, then their shooting pct. relative to their season shooting pct would go up if the preceeding shot was a make. In other words for example's sake. Let's say we a player that is a 39% 3 pt shooter over the course of an entire season. If this player were a streak shooter, he would
make shots the that he took following a make at a slightly higher pct. than 39%. And the after 2 makes, all of his attempts would result in makes at a slightly higher pct. And on and on until the strak was broken. That is to say that a streak shooters previous make or makes increased the likelyhood of the next shot going in.But, that is not what the study found.

In the case of the 39% shooter, he would make shots following a make at the same 39% clip. After 2 makes, he would make all of those shots at the same 39% clip. An so on and so on. Nothing that happened in any preceeding sequence of shots ever had any impact on the success rate of the following group of shots.

If one were to toss a coin a 1000 times and record the results. There would probably be clumps of heads and tails scattered thru out the results. That is just randomness. It does not define the coin as streaky.
 
My position is and continues to be that he deosn't do his hard job well often enough to warrent this cult like worship that he gets.

LOL. You should try your hand at stand-up, gary. And I mean that as a compliment.
 
troll-6.jpg
 
What three?

Blair, Hield or Hornbeak.

I think the starters next season are five of the following 6 guys: Grooms (virtually a lock), Pledger (virtually a lock), Cam Clark, Amath M'Baye, Romero Osby and Andrew Fitzgerald . The last four are virtually a lock to play signficant minutes. Clark, Osby and Fitzgerald will have a lot of experience and have been productive (expeically Osby and Fitzgerlad). M'Baye is supposed to be a really good player.
 
K St is a fine example of what Pledger does well. St lois,Cincy, Missouri,Kansas, and on and on are examples of how ineffective he can be rendered. Sure, opposing defenses try to make Pledgers job hard. So what. Everyone has a hard job.

Pledger's job is to be the primary scorer. It certainly is not to play defense. It isn't to get the ball up court or anything else. There is only one thing he is capable of doing really well ,and that is his primary job, score. So, in trying to estimate Pledger's value to the team, the question is, how often can he do his job well even though it is hard. No one expects him to do his hard job well everytime.It would take a legit star to do that. My position is and continues to be that he deosn't do his hard job well often enough to warrent this cult like worship that he gets. Ecpecially considering the obvious fact that he is a liabiity in many other areas. That is my response and thank you for the considerate and respectful manner that you choose to disagree.

Now, the steak shooter question. I'm not at home so I can not access the book I neeed to cite the study. All I can do is report on the study.

A group of statistical economist conducted a 3 yr study of NBA players. The purpose of the study was either to prove or disprove the existence of the phenominam know as streak shooters.

The premise was that if streak shooters existed, then their shooting pct. relative to their season shooting pct would go up if the preceeding shot was a make. In other words for example's sake. Let's say we a player that is a 39% 3 pt shooter over the course of an entire season. If this player were a streak shooter, he would
make shots the that he took following a make at a slightly higher pct. than 39%. And the after 2 makes, all of his attempts would result in makes at a slightly higher pct. And on and on until the strak was broken. That is to say that a streak shooters previous make or makes increased the likelyhood of the next shot going in.But, that is not what the study found.

In the case of the 39% shooter, he would make shots following a make at the same 39% clip. After 2 makes, he would make all of those shots at the same 39% clip. An so on and so on. Nothing that happened in any preceeding sequence of shots ever had any impact on the success rate of the following group of shots.

If one were to toss a coin a 1000 times and record the results. There would probably be clumps of heads and tails scattered thru out the results. That is just randomness. It does not define the coin as streaky.

Pledger's job is to be the primary scorer...well he is second in the conference in scoring average, 5th in FG%, 4th in FT%, 6th in 3PG%, 1st in 3FGM, and 5th in minutes played. All this on a team that is in good shape thus far for an NIT bid (outside shot at the dance) in a top conference. I'd say he is doing his job REALLY well.

I think you sell him short in some other areas as well: He is a plus rebounder for a guard, his defense is MUCH IMPROVED (especially on the ball) from last year, and he is showing great leadership skills as evidenced by what his teammates say about him.


Thanks for answering my question about streaky shooters.

Also, what the heck else is the primary job of a SHOOTING guard supposed to be for a basketball team? Its not to take the ball up the court, rarely is it your best defender, it's to shoot and score. There is nobody in the Big 12 that is doing that any better than Steven Pledger. Plus (unlike J'Covan Brown) he is doing it within the flow of Kruger's offense.

Anyone ragging on Pledger right now is clinically insane. He is far from the problem with this team.
 
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The downside of participating in the discourse on this message board is the constant barrage of incoming from avid Fox News viewers.
 
The downside of participating in the discourse on this message board is the constant barrage of incoming from avid Fox News viewers.

Men lie, women lie, stats don't lie

-F. Jeffrey Capel III
 
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

These stats tell the story of a player that is doing his job and doing it well on a team that is lacking the quality depth needed to compete for a top 4 spot in the Big 12.

Pledger has been much maligned since his Freshman year and hardly has any sort of cult following as you are implying. Do I think he is a superstar? No. But the guy has stepped up his game and deserves all the praise that he is getting on this board.
 
These stats tell the story of a player that is doing his job and doing it well on a team that is lacking the quality depth needed to compete for a top 4 spot in the Big 12.

Pledger has been much maligned since his Freshman year and hardly has any sort of cult following as you are implying. Do I think he is a superstar? No. But the guy has stepped up his game and deserves all the praise that he is getting on this board.

Exactly! He danged sure doesn't deserve the criticism he receives.
 
The downside of participating in the discourse on this message board is the constant barrage of incoming from avid Fox News viewers.

I'm not an avid fox news or fan of the republican party, nor the democrat party for that matter. Both are essentially the same ideologically.

But I love how someone on a SPORTS message board says something stupid or wrong and blames the rest of the board for not being democrats, even if they don't know their political affiliation for the board.

Everyone being a republican or democrat didn't make you stay stuff about Steven Pledger that is flat out wrong.

Now has Pledger played perfect in conference play? No, he's had a pretty low fg % overall. He's had some down games when we've needed him. But he's overall been by far our best player this year. Ragging on him this year is stupid, has nothing to do with yours or anyone elses politics.
 
Now has Pledger played perfect in conference play? No, he's had a pretty low fg % overall.

Not true, and that is what I was trying to tell garyeb2 earlier in this thread.

In Big 12 play only, Pledger ranks as follows:

- Sixth leading scorer.
- Tenth in the conference in FG%, 5th amongst guards.
- First in FT%.
- Number 8 in 3%, and with one additional make, he'd be nearly tied for third, just to show how close this is.


And his numbers are even better when you look at the entire season, and not just conference play. Some people form ideas in their head, and that is what they see when they watch a game, even if that idea is not correct, or right, or true. Such is the case with Pledger. A lot of people see him as a 3 point shooter only, but fact of the matter is, he has been pretty darn impressive on his regular FG attempts this year. Both in conference play, and out. That is what the stats say. So unless somebody can make an argument that these stats are misleading (they sometimes are), then the fact stands that Pledger is doing well in ALL phases of shooting the basketball.
 
I'm not an avid fox news or fan of the republican party, nor the democrat party for that matter. Both are essentially the same ideologically.

But I love how someone on a SPORTS message board says something stupid or wrong and blames the rest of the board for not being democrats, even if they don't know their political affiliation for the board.

Everyone being a republican or democrat didn't make you stay stuff about Steven Pledger that is flat out wrong.

Now has Pledger played perfect in conference play? No, he's had a pretty low fg % overall. He's had some down games when we've needed him. But he's overall been by far our best player this year. Ragging on him this year is stupid, has nothing to do with yours or anyone elses politics.

Thanks for taking the time out to scold me and define what is and is not accepable commentary.

Just for clarification, because I have no interest in what your personel standards and practices dictate, I was in a way referencing two recent independent university studies that revealed that people the relied on Fox News as their main source knew less about the world they live in than those that never watched the news. I happen to be a lifelong Republican. But, that doesn't mean that I have to be a stupid Republican. Don't get so balled up and try getting your facts straight before you try to self interpret what i'm saying.

And secondly, I haven't said any thing that was flatout wrong about Pledger. Let me recap. Going into the K St. game he was shooting 36% from the field in conference. Not bad. But, certainly not the kind of thing that would cause poets and minstrels to get busy.

I've said that he plays like he has no left hand and he can not go left. And he can not. I've said that he is slow. And he is. Defense is played with the feet. And he can not play defense. He has not gotten better. He cann't, he is slow. He is a defensive liability. His defense makes the team worse. The vast majority of the slow to switch or slow to rotate breakdowns are either Pledger or Fitz. They are both slow. It isn't his fault. Kruger's defensive schemes just burden him with responsibilities that his slow reaction time and lack of quickness causes breakdowns. When people say that he is a capable team defender or he is greatly improved, well, they are just making that up. It isn't true.

Osby is more apt to beat a peremeter defender off the dribble. Pledger can not do that either. Kruger's nephew and the sportscaster's kid are both better ballhandlers. He can not do that either. He looks clumsy when he is bouncing the ball and moving forward at the same time. Now, is that enough?

I have also said that he was a good catch and shoot guard. And he is. The softer the defense gets, the better he gets. The stiffer the defense gets, the worse he gets.

For the position he plays, he is a flawed one deminsional player. Just like Cam,Fitz, and even Grooms are flawed and one deminsional to some degree for the positions that they play. He is no better or worse than any of them and that is the reason the conversation revolves around 6,7, or 8 conference wins. The team isn't quite good enough to get much further than that because the players aren't quite good enough. And that certainly includes Pledger.

So, going forward, I need to start talking nice about Pledger because... why? I want to get on board. So, let's see if I have the story line right. Pledger is so good that with just a couple of breaks he might lead this team all the way to the NIT. Is that it? Well, I'll try to straighten up. I certainly wouldn't want to do anything to derail that juggernaught.
 
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