Could Fitz, M'Baye, and Osby all start next year?

[WTSooner]

I'm just curious garyeb2, how many more wins do you think this OU team would have if Hollis Price as a junior was on this team instead of Pledger?

 

[garyeb2]

I'm just curious garyeb2, how many more wins do you think this OU team would have if Hollis Price as a junior was on this team instead of Pledger?

WT, it is useless to argue this point with you. Every single bullit in your holster,every single time is nothing more than some kids high school ranking or some statistic. To me, that is most shallow and superficial way to present any position or opinion. It is like you never even saw a game. But, the next morning you get up ,look at the box score, and then try to visualize how the game went. Any number without context is meaningless. And you don't seem to know that.

My position on Pledger has been clear and consistant. I'll let you know if any circumstance presents itself that would warrant me re evaluating my opinion.

 

[luckyc1423]

Thanks for taking the time out to scold me and define what is and is not accepable commentary.

Just for clarification, because I have no interest in what your personel standards and practices dictate, I was in a way referencing two recent independent university studies that revealed that people the relied on Fox News as their main source knew less about the world they live in than those that never watched the news. I happen to be a lifelong Republican. But, that doesn't mean that I have to be a stupid Republican. Don't get so balled up and try getting your facts straight before you try to self interpret what i'm saying.

And secondly, I haven't said any thing that was flatout wrong about Pledger. Let me recap. Going into the K St. game he was shooting 36% from the field in conference. Not bad. But, certainly not the kind of thing that would cause poets and minstrels to get busy.

I've said that he plays like he has no left hand and he can not go left. And he can not. I've said that he is slow. And he is. Defense is played with the feet. And he can not play defense. He has not gotten better. He cann't, he is slow. He is a defensive liability. His defense makes the team worse. The vast majority of the slow to switch or slow to rotate breakdowns are either Pledger or Fitz. They are both slow. It isn't his fault. Kruger's defensive schemes just burden him with responsibilities that his slow reaction time and lack of quickness causes breakdowns. When people say that he is a capable team defender or he is greatly improved, well, they are just making that up. It isn't true.

Osby is more apt to beat a peremeter defender off the dribble. Pledger can not do that either. Kruger's nephew and the sportscaster's kid are both better ballhandlers. He can not do that either. He looks clumsy when he is bouncing the ball and moving forward at the same time. Now, is that enough?

I have also said that he was a good catch and shoot guard. And he is. The softer the defense gets, the better he gets. The stiffer the defense gets, the worse he gets.

For the position he plays, he is a flawed one deminsional player. Just like Cam,Fitz, and even Grooms are flawed and one deminsional to some degree for the positions that they play. He is no better or worse than any of them and that is the reason the conversation revolves around 6,7, or 8 conference wins. The team isn't quite good enough to get much further than that because the players aren't quite good enough. And that certainly includes Pledger.

So, going forward, I need to start talking nice about Pledger because... why? I want to get on board. So, let's see if I have the story line right. Pledger is so good that with just a couple of breaks he might lead this team all the way to the NIT. Is that it? Well, I'll try to straighten up. I certainly wouldn't want to do anything to derail that juggernaught.

I do agree with your points and I have been arguing the same thing that pledger and fitz really hurt us on defense.

The question would be, does pledgers poor defense outweigh his offensive ability. I think considering the personel we hvae pledger has to be on the floor alot simply because he is the only consistent shooter.

On the other hand, fitz, should see more bench time. That kid never passes the ball once he gets it.

 

[AdaSooner]

WT, it is useless to argue this point with you. Every single bullit in your holster,every single time is nothing more than some kids high school ranking or some statistic. To me, that is most shallow and superficial way to present any position or opinion. It is like you never even saw a game. But, the next morning you get up ,look at the box score, and then try to visualize how the game went. Any number without context is meaningless. And you don't seem to know that.

My position on Pledger has been clear and consistant. I'll let you know if any circumstance presents itself that would warrant me re evaluating my opinion.

You're right, Gary, it is useless. So, why do you continue to do it? I know, I know, it's because posters like WT, myself and others keep bringing Steven up in our discussions. It's also possible we see him as a better player than the facts show. I'm willing to concede those points to you.

I ask you, though, what would you have OU fans do when a player performs well? Do you think we should pretend that he's not a member of the team, talk about everyone else and leave Pledger out of the discussions? Giving props to a player in our basketball program, and, yes, even believing he is better than he might appear to someone who refuses to see his faults, is as normal on fan boards as knowing the sun will rise in the east and set in the west every day.

What is not normal is for a fan of OU basketball to constantly ride a kid like he's a pack mule to prove a point. Believe me, there are more than a few fans here who have always been able to see Pledger's shortcomings. I'm one of them. He does not have quick feet on defense, which puts him out of position to defend well way too often. He's not the best shooting guard I've seen at creating his own shots when closely guarded, mainly because he doesn't have great handles. I could go on, but you get the point.

None of his weaknesses, however, is a reason to keep harping on the same ol' stuff in an effort to win an argument with WT or anyone else. The fact remains that Steven Pledger is a valauble member of our team, and as such, he deserves the respect he receives from fans who recognize his worth.

That's not to say he should not be criticized from time to time. I have been known to express my own opinion about players who do things to hurt the team, including Pledger. But I also give them their due when they're instrumental in helping OU wins a game, and even when they perform well in a loss.

I'm not saying you or anyone else has to follow my lead. But it wouldn't make you any less of a man to give the kid a little credit for the positives he brings to the team, nor would it hurt you to leave out the criticism that seems to follow nearly every post you make about Pledger.

JMHO, for whatever it's worth. Maybe nothing in your eyes. But it's something I had to say to be honest to myself in how I feel.

 

[SoonerinNC]

Fits shoots usually because he is open. He does force a shot occasionally. So you want a 48% shooter to turn down an open shot. And his shots are usually away from the basket. He doesn't get many cheapies.

And I believe I have heard Kruger praise Pledger for his contribution on defense.

I agree that Pledger at times has difficulty in getting an open shot but he seems to be working on it and improving.

I just hope that Clark, Neal and Grooms work as hard in improving their shots. We need consistent contributions from them.

 

[Mutron76]

You're right, Gary, it is useless. So, why do you continue to do it? I know, I know, it's because posters like WT, myself and others keep bringing Steven up in our discussions. It's also possible we see him as a better player than the facts show. I'm willing to concede those points to you.

I ask you, though, what would you have OU fans do when a player performs well? Do you think we should pretend that he's not a member of the team, talk about everyone else and leave Pledger out of the discussions? Giving props to a player in our basketball program, and, yes, even believing he is better than he might appear to someone who refuses to see his faults, is as normal on fan boards as knowing the sun will rise in the east and set in the west every day.

What is not normal is for a fan of OU basketball to constantly ride a kid like he's a pack mule to prove a point. Believe me, there are more than a few fans here who have always been able to see Pledger's shortcomings. I'm one of them. He does not have quick feet on defense, which puts him out of position to defend well way too often. He's not the best shooting guard I've seen at creating his own shots when closely guarded, mainly because he doesn't have great handles. I could go on, but you get the point.

None of his weaknesses, however, is a reason to keep harping on the same ol' stuff in an effort to win an argument with WT or anyone else. The fact remains that Steven Pledger is a valauble member of our team, and as such, he deserves the respect he receives from fans who recognize his worth.

That's not to say he should not be criticized from time to time. I have been known to express my own opinion about players who do things to hurt the team, including Pledger. But I also give them their due when they're instrumental in helping OU wins a game, and even when they perform well in a loss.

I'm not saying you or anyone else has to follow my lead. But it wouldn't make you any less of a man to give the kid a little credit for the positives he brings to the team, nor would it hurt you to leave out the criticism that seems to follow nearly every post you make about Pledger.

JMHO, for whatever it's worth. Maybe nothing in your eyes. But it's something I had to say to be honest to myself in how I feel.

Good post. Some folks like to argue and some do not. Both groups are fine by me. I personally choose cheer, praise, and support for a guy/gal once they put on an OU uniform. I realize that makes me somewhat of a pumper and im cool with that. I does not mean I am unaware of a persons strengths and weaknesses and it does not make Garey less of a fan because he does not mind verbally kickin his favorite teams players even though I agree with WT on this particular topic.
Would I trade B Griner for Nicole Griffin. No. If Griner would rather play for Skeletor than Sherri then Baylor can have her. I suppose my point is some of us do not wish for the players we do not have or blame our coaches when an 18 year old chooses another school. However, that does not make me anymore of a fan either. JMHO, for whatever it's worth. Maybe nothing in your eyes. But it's something I had to say to be honest to myself in how I feel.

 

[AdaSooner]

Good post. Some folks like to argue and some do not. Both groups are fine by me. I personally choose cheer, praise, and support for a guy/gal once they put on an OU uniform. I realize that makes me somewhat of a pumper and im cool with that. I does not mean I am unaware of a persons strengths and weaknesses and it does not make Garey less of a fan because he does not mind verbally kickin his favorite teams players even though I agree with WT on this particular topic.
Would I trade B Griner for Nicole Griffin. No. If Griner would rather play for Skeletor than Sherri then Baylor can have her. I suppose my point is some of us do not wish for the players we do not have or blame our coaches when an 18 year old chooses another school. However, that does not make me anymore of a fan either. JMHO, for whatever it's worth. Maybe nothing in your eyes. But it's something I had to say to be honest to myself in how I feel.

Your last three sentences made me :ez-roll:

I agree with everything you said. My appeal to Garyeb2 was not meant to question his right to criticize the weaknesses he sees in Steven Pledger's game. I see them, too. But, like you, I choose to focus more on the positives he brings to the game, and less on his faults.

I don't have a problem with criticizing a player when it's handled with the respect Gary usually shows. It's the constant barrage of beating the same dead horse that I don't believe is necessary.

Steven is, by all accounts, a good kid who represents the university well. When he's gone a little more two years from now, I will continue to appreciate what he has accomplished for our basketball program, regardless of how well he performs for the remainder of his career. He'll still be a Sooner to me, and that will never change.

 

[steverocks35]

I have to weigh in here. Steven Pledger is vastly improved over last season. He's a significantly better rebounder and defender, and his confidence is through the roof in the scoring department. I don't have to look at the numbers or look at boxscores to support my argument. Why? Because I've watched nearly every single game he's ever played on a college level!

Secondly, there's no such thing as a streaky shooter? Seriously? You never heard of Vinny "the Microwave" Johnson? You don't think Russell Westbrook is a streaky shooter? You said it yourself "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

 

[DenverSooner]

I have to weigh in here. Steven Pledger is vastly improved over last season. He's a significantly better rebounder and defender, and his confidence is through the roof in the scoring department. I don't have to look at the numbers or look at boxscores to support my argument. Why? Because I've watched nearly every single game he's ever played on a college level!

Secondly, there's no such thing as a streaky shooter? Seriously? You never heard of Vinny "the Microwave" Johnson? You don't think Russell Westbrook is a streaky shooter? You said it yourself "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

I would contend that Pledger and Fitzgerald will actually be better than average Big XII defenders their senior years. I think people tend to fail to realize the importance of experience. In my opinion basketball players learn to play defense in college. I am not suggesting that high school teams don't play defense, I just think it is an entirely different level in college and even another level in the pros. Having started 60+ games and logged 2,000+ minutes of college game experience is a big deal. Fitzgerald and Pledger may never be as fast as some top 50 high school recruit but that experience will allow them to compensate for any lack of athletic ability. I am quite pleased these guys are both returning and I think OU is going to have a strong team next season.

Finally, if I am wrong and Hield, Hornbeak or anyone else starts over Pledger (or Fitzgerald) it simply means OU is an even better team because no one in the Big XII will bring guys as good as Pledger and Fitzgerald off the bench.

 

[garyeb2]

I have to weigh in here. Steven Pledger is vastly improved over last season. He's a significantly better rebounder and defender, and his confidence is through the roof in the scoring department. I don't have to look at the numbers or look at boxscores to support my argument. Why? Because I've watched nearly every single game he's ever played on a college level!

Secondly, there's no such thing as a streaky shooter? Seriously? You never heard of Vinny "the Microwave" Johnson? You don't think Russell Westbrook is a streaky shooter? You said it yourself "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

There is a distinct difference between statistics and probability studies.

 

[WTSooner]

I didn't read the entire thing, but my problem with what I did read about the "study on streaky shooters", is that it measured from shot to shot. Nobody is saying players are streaky on a shot to shot basis. But there are days/games, or weeks, or series of games where players simply feel better shooting the ball. Maybe it's mental. Maybe it's mechanical. Some players are just way more consistent. If they are going to shoot 40% on the year, it's going to be full of games where they go 2 of 5 from the field. Other players may have a bunch of games where they go 3 of 5, or 4 for 5, but they will also have a bunch of 1 for 5 or 0 for 5 games to even that out. Is one more valuable then the other? I'm not sure in the long run how much it matters, but I think I'd prefer the kid that had less ups and downs.

As for the defense.....it's funny how people can watch the same games, and get entirely different conclusions. Personally, I think Pledger has probably been one of our better defenders this year. Cam is probably the only other guard that comes close. I wish there was a defensive efficiency stat that resembled how offensive linemen are graded out in football. I really think Pledger would grade out well in that regards. I've really started paying extra close attention to this (Pledger's defense, and that of all guards) in recent weeks, and I really feel like Pledger is playing at worst, average defense. And it's probably been better than that.

Yes, defense is about foot speed, but the list of guys that played good defense at OU with below average foot speed is actually a pretty long list. Kelvin had his share. But that is where the discussion gets interesting. Do you only evaluate defenders on an individual level, or do you evaluate them as they fit into the team defense? Kelvin didn't have a bunch of great individual defenders. He had very few. But what he had was great TEAM defenses, which made the individuals look better than they were, most likely. College offenses and offense players are too good to just line up, and play man, and expect to shut them down. Even the best defenders need help, and good team defense, to shut a man down. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between, IMO.

 

[NickZepp]

I don't get the Pledger has played bad defense crowd either. In fact our defense is about the last thing I can see complaining about other than the game against Missouri.

 

[BigTime]

I don't get the Pledger has played bad defense crowd either. In fact our defense is about the last thing I can see complaining about other than the game against Missouri.

I think his defense is vastly improved over last year. Better technique, timing his steals, better body control. I also think he has improved on the glass.

 

[StatGeek]

Pledger's shooting % from inside the 3pt line is lower than his 3 pt shooting %. His overall % is about what I quoted. Which is easily explained. Most 3 pt shots that Pledger or anyone else takes are open shots.

He is an excellent free throw shooter. Once again, no one is guarding him.

Can you help me understand this post?



Also, you do realize that there are serious issues with the methodology used (as you recall it) in the streaky shooter study? I would be careful using that study as definitive evidence that there is not a streaky shooter phenomenon.

The biggest problem with attempting to quantify this concept is the creation of proper controls. For example, will your study look at the shooter in a vacuum or will it also consider other factors like the quality of the defense? Further do you look at the streaky shooter question from a textbook definition perspective or from a basketball persons perspective. What I mean here is the textbook definition only looks at consecutive makes and misses; whereas a basketball perspective might say a player going 6-8 from 3pt range is on a hot streak. I'm going to stop now before I really get going and bore everyone with a long post about data analysis.

 

[garyeb2]

I didn't read the entire thing, but my problem with what I did read about the "study on streaky shooters", is that it measured from shot to shot. Nobody is saying players are streaky on a shot to shot basis. But there are days/games, or weeks, or series of games where players simply feel better shooting the ball. Maybe it's mental. Maybe it's mechanical. Some players are just way more consistent. If they are going to shoot 40% on the year, it's going to be full of games where they go 2 of 5 from the field. Other players may have a bunch of games where they go 3 of 5, or 4 for 5, but they will also have a bunch of 1 for 5 or 0 for 5 games to even that out. Is one more valuable then the other? I'm not sure in the long run how much it matters, but I think I'd prefer the kid that had less ups and downs.

As for the defense.....it's funny how people can watch the same games, and get entirely different conclusions. Personally, I think Pledger has probably been one of our better defenders this year. Cam is probably the only other guard that comes close. I wish there was a defensive efficiency stat that resembled how offensive linemen are graded out in football. I really think Pledger would grade out well in that regards. I've really started paying extra close attention to this (Pledger's defense, and that of all guards) in recent weeks, and I really feel like Pledger is playing at worst, average defense. And it's probably been better than that.

Yes, defense is about foot speed, but the list of guys that played good defense at OU with below average foot speed is actually a pretty long list. Kelvin had his share. But that is where the discussion gets interesting. Do you only evaluate defenders on an individual level, or do you evaluate them as they fit into the team defense? Kelvin didn't have a bunch of great individual defenders. He had very few. But what he had was great TEAM defenses, which made the individuals look better than they were, most likely. College offenses and offense players are too good to just line up, and play man, and expect to shut them down. Even the best defenders need help, and good team defense, to shut a man down. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between, IMO.

It would be helpfull if you finished reading my report on the study of streak shooters before taking issue with it. It was a serious study by smart people over an extended period of time. The results were compelling. The finding was that there was no such thing as a streak shooter in the NBA. Clumps of makes or misses by every player were nothing more than randomness. Within the last 2/3 yrs I read a book entitled DON'T BE FOOLED BY RANDOMNESS. It described numerous examples of how people recognised a pattern and the tried to assign some sort of meaning to it. And in reality, what the people were observing were nothing more than random outcomes. I tend to put alot of stock in serious,long term studies by smart people. Others that want to believe in streaky coins are free to do so.

I was purposely narrow with my knock on Pledger's and Fitz's defensive abilities. I said when someone was late on a rotation or switch it was usually one of those two. And it is and I will stand by that. While I don't think that either one of them have the natural ability to be good defenders, I think that it is Kruger himself that is putting players in a position that they have very little chance at success. In other words he is asking them to do things that they just can not do.

That is not in any way shape or form a knock on Kruger. He is the greatest. I support him 100%. If I had his job, I would do it the same way. He has compromised a great deal of what he wants to do so as to better fit the personel he fell heir to. But, he has to get his basic stuff installed starting this year. And then going forward,recruit kids that can do it better than some of this crop.

A player needs a very short reaction time and a very quick first step to get to the spot Coach wants them in. Over time, some of these players may improve their anticipation skills to the point that the bust come less frequently. But, Kruger's best defenses won't include next years more experienced bunch. They will come from groups in the future with players more suited to do the things he needs hem to do.

 

[Mr.B!!!]

Pledger is one of the top 10 players in the conference. Sick of people who would rather be "right" than accept the obvious. MB's are great, until someone takes a position and then can't let it go. I'll start: I thought Capel got the axe a year too soon, I was....wait for it....WRONG.

 

[AdaSooner]

I don't get the Pledger has played bad defense crowd either. In fact our defense is about the last thing I can see complaining about other than the game against Missouri.

I hope you're not talking about me. I didn't say anything to suggest that Steven played "bad defense." I said he does not have quick feet, which puts him out of position far too often. He is not by any means the only player on the team who would benefit by improving their footspeed.

I agree with those who say that he has come a long way this season in every phase of the game, including defense. I have said the same thing, more than once.

And, contrary to a few posts I've read, he is not even close to the weak link defensively in our rotation. This team is not blessed with what I would call a lock down defender, not one. That's why total team defense with consistent help from the weak side, like the performance we saw against K-State, is a must if we are to be successful going forward.

 

[vbdad]

Pledger has some weaknesses but Coach Kruger believes he is one of the best pure shooters he has ever coached.
I don't see Neal or Blair playing much next year.

 

[WTSooner]

It would be helpfull if you finished reading my report on the study of streak shooters before taking issue with it. It was a serious study by smart people over an extended period of time. The results were compelling. The finding was that there was no such thing as a streak shooter in the NBA. Clumps of makes or misses by every player were nothing more than randomness. Within the last 2/3 yrs I read a book entitled DON'T BE FOOLED BY RANDOMNESS. It described numerous examples of how people recognised a pattern and the tried to assign some sort of meaning to it. And in reality, what the people were observing were nothing more than random outcomes. I tend to put alot of stock in serious,long term studies by smart people. Others that want to believe in streaky coins are free to do so.

Like a lot of things, I just don't think you can measure something like this. They may be measuring the luckiness of bounces, and stuff like that, but as somebody that played the game, I know there were days/games where I was much more likely to shoot the ball well, and other days when I knew before I got off the bus I wouldn't shoot well. Baseball can be the same way. There are stretches of time where you as a hitter, you simply see the ball better. Whether that is mental or mechanical, I didn't always know. But it's not like from week to week I forgot how to shoot, or hit a baseball. The better you are, the less streaky you are, by definition, I'd think. Again, I don't see how you could "measure" this, but as a player, I sure felt it.

I was purposely narrow with my knock on Pledger's and Fitz's defensive abilities. I said when someone was late on a rotation or switch it was usually one of those two. And it is and I will stand by that. While I don't think that either one of them have the natural ability to be good defenders, I think that it is Kruger himself that is putting players in a position that they have very little chance at success. In other words he is asking them to do things that they just can not do.

That is not in any way shape or form a knock on Kruger. He is the greatest. I support him 100%. If I had his job, I would do it the same way. He has compromised a great deal of what he wants to do so as to better fit the personel he fell heir to. But, he has to get his basic stuff installed starting this year. And then going forward,recruit kids that can do it better than some of this crop.

A player needs a very short reaction time and a very quick first step to get to the spot Coach wants them in. Over time, some of these players may improve their anticipation skills to the point that the bust come less frequently. But, Kruger's best defenses won't include next years more experienced bunch. They will come from groups in the future with players more suited to do the things he needs hem to do.

I disagree that it is "usually" Pledger or Fitz that are late rotating. I think they are all pretty equally guilty of that over the course of the season. I think Osby does a decent job of it, and I think Grooms does a poor job. Not sure about Cam. I don't see anybody on the team that couldn't be a good team defender, but the problem is that a) defense hasn't been a priority in recent years, and they can't learn it over night, and b) there isn't that one good defender, or two good defenders to kind of be the glue to the defense.

I agree that Kruger wanted to pressure and press more. But if you'll remember, I was saying before the season started, and in those early games, that we'd either get killed by pressing teams we had no business pressing, or we'd back off of it. Not just by you, but several posters told me I was wrong, and that LK wanted to play that way. I said LK was smart enough to realize he couldn't with this team. I ended up being right. About 5 games into the season, the pressing stopped. Not long after that, the pressure on the ball defense cooled off. We just don't have that kind of team yet. I agree that LK will put better teams on the floor. Both on offense and defense. The difference in you and I is that I don't think that is indicative of individual talents (Pledger, Fitz, Osby, and to a lesser extent Grooms), but more of a sign of the overall roster issues we still have.

 

[garyeb2]

Don't just assume that something is one way or the other. Specifically watch for switching and rotation bust and count them. I do. But, it isn't just those two all the time. Most all of them have trouble getting from where they are suppose to be to closing out on a 3 pt. shooter. All except for Grooms that is. But, he is too short to do much about it when he gets there.

Backing off the on ball pressure is one of the compromises that Kruger has made because of some of the weakness of his current personel. But, that has less to do with your prediction skills and more to do with Calvin could do it and the other guy can not.

Another compromise that he has had to make is that this team has spent more time in zone than his last 5 UNLV teams combined. And I suppose that is because he knows that he has kids in there trying to do things that they just can not be consistant with.