Grant McCasland

[WTSooner]

So those of you that laugh at us that say OU doesn't pass the eye test want to use your eyes over recruiting rankings when it comes to the talent discussion.

Got. It.

 

[WTSooner]

Some our fans:

"Porter's HS recruiting is some of the best we've seen in decades. Love the transfers too. Uzan might be in the NBA next year. JM will definitely be in the NBA. Did you see what Hugely did as a sophomore? Not sure how they'll be able to keep Cooper out of the starting lineup all season."

Same fans:

"NIL kills us. We don't have anywhere near the talent we need to compete with 2/3's of the Big 12."


Make it stop. Please!

 

[MJSooner]

It’s hard to compare talent using recruiting rankings. Those are so subjective. The top 20-30 are usually very talented players but beyond that it becomes increasingly hit or miss.

It’s easy to see who the best teams are because we played the games. We can watch those players against each other and tell which ones are better. OU has the 9th best team in the Big12 and based on watching every game, that’s the measure of their “talent”. We need better players.

I agree with this. Everyone talks about the Eye Test- even a thread on this board. Well, my eyes from the third row of the UL at LNC tells me we don’t have the same kind of physical talent as KU, Texas, Houston, Baylor, ISU, even Cincy, and maybe TCU. About even with Tech, BYU, and KSU. Just looking at the rosters, warmups, and how athletic they look on the court. Previous years even worse.

Where does that put us? Athletically and talent wise maybe 7-9 in the league, which by no coincidence is where we finished.

So how do we improve? Well better coaching might squeeze out 2-4 wins with the same roster. Maybe up to 5 if it’s a star coach. But the wrong coach could mean up to 5 wins fewer and mean catastrophe for our program.

The other way to get better, regardless of the coach, is a better roster. Personally, after the screwups in the portal the first year as Bros pointed out, I think Moser has done a pretty good job with what he has to work with in NIL and fan and donor support (which also equates to new facilities). HS recruiting has been solid.

But to really improve the talent level from the portal, OU HAS to step up on NIL. The rumor and word behind the scenes from some people that should know is that this past offseason, our entire starting 5 made less in NIL than one starter/transfer at Texas. Dickinson got $850K to go to KU. One player. No way does our NIL budget compete to get the transfers needed to compete with the transfers at the other schools in the top half of this conference or the SEC.

I’m not tied to PM either. But I also don’t think he the sole or biggest issue. Even if any of the top coaches were here, under the same constraints, NIL limitations, and general donor and fan apathy, we wouldn’t be playing for titles.

Bottom line? To compete at the level most fans expect we have to get more talent from the portal. And as of now, we don’t compete at that level.

 

[WichitaSooner]

I agree with this. Everyone talks about the Eye Test- even a thread on this board. Well, my eyes from the third row of the UL at LNC tells me we don’t have the same kind of physical talent as KU, Texas, Houston, Baylor, ISU, even Cincy, and maybe TCU. About even with Tech, BYU, and KSU. Just looking at the rosters, warmups, and how athletic they look on the court. Previous years even worse.

Where does that put us? Athletically and talent wise maybe 7-9 in the league, which by no coincidence is where we finished.

So how do we improve? Well better coaching might squeeze out 2-4 wins with the same roster. Maybe up to 5 if it’s a star coach. But the wrong coach could mean up to 5 wins fewer and mean catastrophe for our program.

The other way to get better, regardless of the coach, is a better roster. Personally, after the screwups in the portal the first year as Bros pointed out, I think Moser has done a pretty good job with what he has to work with in NIL and fan and donor support (which also equates to new facilities). HS recruiting has been solid.

But to really improve the talent level from the portal, OU HAS to step up on NIL. The rumor and word behind the scenes from some people that should know is that this past offseason, our entire starting 5 made less in NIL than one starter/transfer at Texas. Dickinson got $850K to go to KU. One player. No way does our NIL budget compete to get the transfers needed to compete with the transfers at the other schools in the top half of this conference or the SEC.

I’m not tied to PM either. But I also don’t think he the sole or biggest issue. Even if any of the top coaches were here, under the same constraints, NIL limitations, and general donor and fan apathy, we wouldn’t be playing for titles.

Bottom line? To compete at the level most fans expect we have to get more talent from the portal. And as of now, we don’t compete at that level.

I’d argue that no team in the league has a more athletic duo that Soares and Moore, and you could possibly say no team had four better pure athletes than those two plus Oweh and Cooper. Kevin Henry has said a few times that Cooper is very close to Moore in athletic ability. Houston has athletic bigs but their guards are just good players. Ahead and Cryer aren’t top notch athletes. KU has Adams and Furphy but otherwise isn’t a team built on athletes.

As for NIL, our two best players are Moore and Soares, so NIL clearly didn’t hamper our ability to get talent in the portal. It didn’t hurt our ability to sign Cooper. Los and Oweh falling off a cliff has nothing to do with NIL.

 

[Boom Soon]

Are we going to make a thread for every coach that wins 1 more regular season game than Moser?

Lol

 

[TEvans4Three]

So those of you that laugh at us that say OU doesn't pass the eye test want to use your eyes over recruiting rankings when it comes to the talent discussion.

Got. It.

If this is in response to my post, then nope, not at all. (If you read the post, it's full of subjective and opinion based analysis - in regards to recruiting rankings)

Just responding to your over-generalized hypothesis is all.

I say how subjective it all is, which becomes murky waters when you try and deal with absolutes.

I’d argue that no team in the league has a more athletic duo that Soares and Moore, and you could possibly say no team had four better pure athletes than those two plus Oweh and Cooper. Kevin Henry has said a few times that Cooper is very close to Moore in athletic ability. Houston has athletic bigs but their guards are just good players. Ahead and Cryer aren’t top notch athletes. KU has Adams and Furphy but otherwise isn’t a team built on athletes.

As for NIL, our two best players are Moore and Soares, so NIL clearly didn’t hamper our ability to get talent in the portal. It didn’t hurt our ability to sign Cooper. Los and Oweh falling off a cliff has nothing to do with NIL.

The two athletic players, I think Texas has better or equal. The only problem is athletic doesn't always equal skilled. Bamisile was athletic, so is Oweh. But Oweh sucks right now and bamisile was an offensive nightmare.


You both are at this "me against the world" mentality on here. Some of us try to have a logical discussion and one of you ignores every fact/refuses to acknowledge. The other spins it pessimistically every, single, time.

If that is how unhappy/unsatisfied you are, totally fine, your perogative. But I think, just like with the over-optimism in "Moser does nothing wrong" it gets tiring, same as it does when Moser gets no credit whatsoever. Especially when there is a refusal to concede any point or find common ground on issues.

If I'm on ignore, totally fine, I respect your decisions as well.

Just my 2 cents, which don't really mean much tbh. Just 2 pennies.

 

[TEvans4Three]

I'll my dumb BS above to also say, I'd take Grant McCasland today in a trade... Every time.

 

[WichitaSooner]

Lol

Can these people truly not read? Tech finished THREE games ahead of us.

 

[WichitaSooner]

If this is in response to my post, then nope, not at all. (If you read the post, it's full of subjective and opinion based analysis - in regards to recruiting rankings)

Just responding to your over-generalized hypothesis is all.

I say how subjective it all is, which becomes murky waters when you try and deal with absolutes.

I really don’t think I “spin” anything. If I state something as fact and I am wrong, then please correct me. But simply pointing out our record and our shortcomings isn’t spin if it’s accurate. And I don’t always take the pessimistic view. I’ve posted several times that I was very wrong over the offseason about Moore and Soares, and I did give Moser credit for upgrading the talent. The issue now is that he hasn’t come closing to maximizing the talent we have.
The two athletic players, I think Texas has better or equal. The only problem is athletic doesn't always equal skilled. Bamisile was athletic, so is Oweh. But Oweh sucks right now and bamisile was an offensive nightmare.


You both are at this "me against the world" mentality on here. Some of us try to have a logical discussion and one of you ignores every fact/refuses to acknowledge. The other spins it pessimistically every, single, time.

If that is how unhappy/unsatisfied you are, totally fine, your perogative. But I think, just like with the over-optimism in "Moser does nothing wrong" it gets tiring, same as it does when Moser gets no credit whatsoever. Especially when there is a refusal to concede any point or find common ground on issues.

If I'm on ignore, totally fine, I respect your decions as well.

Just my 2 cents, which don't really mean much tbh. Just 2 pennies.

 

[mict085]

I agree with this. Everyone talks about the Eye Test- even a thread on this board. Well, my eyes from the third row of the UL at LNC tells me we don’t have the same kind of physical talent as KU, Texas, Houston, Baylor, ISU, even Cincy, and maybe TCU. About even with Tech, BYU, and KSU. Just looking at the rosters, warmups, and how athletic they look on the court. Previous years even worse.

Where does that put us? Athletically and talent wise maybe 7-9 in the league, which by no coincidence is where we finished.

So how do we improve? Well better coaching might squeeze out 2-4 wins with the same roster. Maybe up to 5 if it’s a star coach. But the wrong coach could mean up to 5 wins fewer and mean catastrophe for our program.

The other way to get better, regardless of the coach, is a better roster. Personally, after the screwups in the portal the first year as Bros pointed out, I think Moser has done a pretty good job with what he has to work with in NIL and fan and donor support (which also equates to new facilities). HS recruiting has been solid.

But to really improve the talent level from the portal, OU HAS to step up on NIL. The rumor and word behind the scenes from some people that should know is that this past offseason, our entire starting 5 made less in NIL than one starter/transfer at Texas. Dickinson got $850K to go to KU. One player. No way does our NIL budget compete to get the transfers needed to compete with the transfers at the other schools in the top half of this conference or the SEC.

I’m not tied to PM either. But I also don’t think he the sole or biggest issue. Even if any of the top coaches were here, under the same constraints, NIL limitations, and general donor and fan apathy, we wouldn’t be playing for titles.

Bottom line? To compete at the level most fans expect we have to get more talent from the portal. And as of now, we don’t compete at that level.

I completely agree and I’ve said many times that the program needs to be better supported through NIL and other resources or it doesn’t matter who is coaching. I’m not a big fan of moser but without more support, we can’t compete. We’re not competing right now and it’s going to get worse unless we course correct.

 

[MJSooner]

I’d argue that no team in the league has a more athletic duo that Soares and Moore, and you could possibly say no team had four better pure athletes than those two plus Oweh and Cooper. Kevin Henry has said a few times that Cooper is very close to Moore in athletic ability. Houston has athletic bigs but their guards are just good players. Ahead and Cryer aren’t top notch athletes. KU has Adams and Furphy but otherwise isn’t a team built on athletes.

As for NIL, our two best players are Moore and Soares, so NIL clearly didn’t hamper our ability to get talent in the portal. It didn’t hurt our ability to sign Cooper. Los and Oweh falling off a cliff has nothing to do with NIL.

Re-read my post. I said athletically AND talent-wise, we are 7-9 in the league. You may say Oweh is a much better athlete than Shead, but no way is he a more talented guard than Shead. You may say Adams and Furphy are the only "athletes" on KU, but I doubt you would pass on Dickinson and McCullar over Soares and Moore, just because of their athleticism.

One can't deny the top teams in the league have better rosters than ours. Moser isn't losing with the Dream Team, or our '16 FF roster. Solid roster, but not as good as the best.

And if you don't think NIL didn't hamper our recruiting and transfers I don't know what to tell you. Go back and look at the recruiting/transfer threads on this board and TOS and you will see plenty we missed on to other schools. Including Abmas. Just because we get some recruits or recruits that work out at OU, doesn't mean NIL didn't negatively impact our ability to recruit. Just look at last summer's portal and HS recruiting. The list is long on guys who looked like they were going to commit or sign with OU that switched at the last minute.

If our entire 5, regardless of how athletic they are or not, isn't making collectively in NIL what an All-Conference Guard is at the other schools, the OU coach, regardless of name, will have a tough time consistently recruiting All-Conference talent to OU.

 

[mict085]

I’d argue that no team in the league has a more athletic duo that Soares and Moore, and you could possibly say no team had four better pure athletes than those two plus Oweh and Cooper. Kevin Henry has said a few times that Cooper is very close to Moore in athletic ability. Houston has athletic bigs but their guards are just good players. Ahead and Cryer aren’t top notch athletes. KU has Adams and Furphy but otherwise isn’t a team built on athletes.

As for NIL, our two best players are Moore and Soares, so NIL clearly didn’t hamper our ability to get talent in the portal. It didn’t hurt our ability to sign Cooper. Los and Oweh falling off a cliff has nothing to do with NIL.

You can’t automatically equate athleticism with talent. Some athletes are good basketball players and some are not. I think our “talent” is way overstated.

Oweh is a great athlete but he’s far from a good basketball player. Cooper is a great athlete and can’t even get on the court. And being a great HS player doesn’t always translate to college. That’s why you see highly ranked HS players fail…because they didn’t take the next step in college. Potential is wasted everyday and that’s what recruit ranking are…potential.

 

[WTSooner]

You can’t automatically equate athleticism with talent. Some athletes are good basketball players and some are not. I think our “talent” is way overstated.

Oweh is a great athlete but he’s far from a good basketball player. Cooper is a great athlete and can’t even get on the court. And being a great HS player doesn’t always translate to college. That’s why you see highly ranked HS players fail…because they didn’t take the next step in college. Potential is wasted everyday and that’s what recruit ranking are…potential.

And you can't automatically say that if a top 100 kid comes to OU and struggles he didn't have the talent (or athleticism).

THAT is coaching (or lack thereof). I'm tired of seeing similarly rated kids go to other schools and develop quicker/better. You can say all you want that Shead was a better prospect than Uzan/Oweh/Cooper/whomever until you are blue in the face. But put those kids with a coach that can develop.....put Shead on a team coached by Moser, and I bet both players look different. Again, that is coaching. And when I watch college basketball.....when I watch OU, and I watch other Big 12 teams, I see a lack of development. I see kids that struggled at other schools transfer to TT, or ISU, or Baylor, and have their production go up. I see kids that in some cases did well at their other schools transfer to OU, and do worse or show no improvement.

And before anybody jumps on me, Moore and Soares would be exceptions to that. But you can add in the HS kids when you talk about lack of development too. And identifying which kids can take coaching and improve.....identifying which kids have that work ethic, or the ability to be skilled college basketball players, that is one part of what we are paying Moser (and his staff) to do. And that is supposed to be something Moser was going to be really good at. I haven't seen enough. Not on the scale we need at OU. But I see it in spades at other places. I sure as heck see it at Houston. I see it at TT. I see it at ISU.

 

[TEvans4Three]

"I really don’t think I “spin” anything. If I state something as fact and I am wrong, then please correct me. But simply pointing out our record and our shortcomings isn’t spin if it’s accurate. And I don’t always take the pessimistic view. I’ve posted several times that I was very wrong over the offseason about Moore and Soares, and I did give Moser credit for upgrading the talent. The issue now is that he hasn’t come closing to maximizing the talent we have."

@WichitaSooner

Sorry, just, pulling this your quote out to actually respond properly.

I have seen you agree and concede on points. I think it's probably the influx of" Moser is awful" post game (usually losses given our horrid end in conf play against good teams and... Ugh, Texas.) Again, I can't really blame you when it's also pretty noticeably 7 v. 1 when there are discussions and it's a nonstop barrage of it. Heck you've liked my posts here and there.

I could also be missing bulks of conversations. If I do that, call me out.

I'll do my best for civil discourse on points. Trying to be better/more stoic on here myself.

 

[MJSooner]

And you can't automatically say that if a top 100 kid comes to OU and struggles he didn't have the talent (or athleticism).

THAT is coaching (or lack thereof). I'm tired of seeing similarly rated kids go to other schools and develop quicker/better. You can say all you want that Shead was a better prospect than Uzan/Oweh/Cooper/whomever until you are blue in the face. But put those kids with a coach that can develop.....put Shead on a team coached by Moser, and I bet both players look different. Again, that is coaching. And when I watch college basketball.....when I watch OU, and I watch other Big 12 teams, I see a lack of development. I see kids that struggled at other schools transfer to TT, or ISU, or Baylor, and have their production go up. I see kids that in some cases did well at their other schools transfer to OU, and do worse or show no improvement.

And before anybody jumps on me, Moore and Soares would be exceptions to that. But you can add in the HS kids when you talk about lack of development too. And identifying which kids can take coaching and improve.....identifying which kids have that work ethic, or the ability to be skilled college basketball players, that is one part of what we are paying Moser (and his staff) to do. And that is supposed to be something Moser was going to be really good at. I haven't seen enough. Not on the scale we need at OU. But I see it in spades at other places. I sure as heck see it at Houston. I see it at TT. I see it at ISU.

So WT might be shocked at this in being one area where we probably share a ton of agreement. As I stated earlier, I'm not tied to PM, but do want to see him succeed. But if there is one major criticism I have of him, it is how he works with his staff, and how he treats mistakes with what appears to be a lack of trust in staff and players.

Most of player development comes from the staff and giving inexperienced players opportunities. In practices, in film sessions, and in games. No one can argue having a strong staff and having a staff with continuity is the difference between good teams and great teams. Just rewind back to our FF run and the years after. Did Kruger all of sudden become worse of a coach just by getting a year or two older? No, the two guys that had been with him, Henson and Hill, both left. They helped run practices, they worked one-on-one with players. Example, Christian James. Went downhill after Henson. After they left, LK didn't have the same kind of staff to rely on for those key points.

Then take a look at Moser. If you can go to games, you will quickly notice how in "control" he is of the game. Substitutions, huddles, timeouts, 1:1 conversations with players on the floor. Love his energy, but I see very little interaction with the staff, compared to most HCs. You see very little of the ACs calling things out to the players, taking them aside and coaching them up, or reaming them out. I will say it was better this year than the last two, and there was some interaction at the beginning of a TO, where PM looked like he was soliciting his staff for thoughts. But people that have gone to practice, and those reporters or insiders say this is how it is at practice too. Porter is definitely the leader and the HC. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't provide an environment to get the most out of his staff to assist, and in turn, impacts the players and their development. Staff interaction seemed better and I believe part of it is we have a better staff, but part of it is Moser seems to have changed a bit too. But maybe needs to trust and delegate more.

It also creates an environment where a player is afraid to make a mistake, and as a result, PM doesn't seem to let players play into their positions. And it's not just freshman. Remember how long it took to get Chargois significant minutes? Marvin Johnson? Waldo?

I can't help but think this control and attention to every detail leads to some of the turnover we've seen in the staff. And probably doesn't help with players either when other schools are trying to get transfers and drop NIL dollars into the conversation.

IMO, Porter needs to let his assistants coach more and have more trust in both his staff and his players. If he did that, maybe we would see better player development and continuity on both the roster and staff.

 

[skyvue]

We can watch those players against each other and tell which ones are better. OU has the 9th best team in the Big12 and based on watching every game, that’s the measure of their “talent”. We need better players.

That's assuming our coaches have gotten the best possible out of our players. I consider that a question very much up for debate.

 

[SoonerDutch]

I sure as heck see it at Houston. I see it at TT. I see it at ISU.

Regardless of what one thinks about Moser, I think this a really worthwhile question (would also include BU) as to what differentiates those programs from OU now and how those differences evolved over the past 15-20 years.

As a fan whose formative experience was late 90s/early 2000s, Tech, ISU, & BU were likely wins for Sampson’s teams. But that has obviously changed significantly post-2010. One could say OU missed on coaching hires (Capel for sure and again, one is free to draw their conclusions about PM) but LK is a HofF coach and his teams still struggled against those teams so again just find it hard to believe it’s possible to completely separate the broader institutional problems from the recent track record.

 

[IndySooner]

Regardless of what one thinks about Moser, I think this a really worthwhile question (would also include BU) as to what differentiates those programs from OU now and how those differences evolved over the past 15-20 years.

As a fan whose formative experience was late 90s/early 2000s, Tech, ISU, & BU were likely wins for Sampson’s teams. But that has obviously changed significantly post-2010. One could say OU missed on coaching hires (Capel for sure and again, one is free to draw their conclusions about PM) but LK is a HofF coach and his teams still struggled against those teams so again just find it hard to believe it’s possible to completely separate the broader institutional problems from the recent track record.

You can't put ISU in the same bucket as BU and Tech. And really, Baylor was the only dead program of the three.

But ISU was winning games at a high clip back in the Johnny Orr days. They weren't as consistent, but they've always been around.

 

[Eielson]

Can these people truly not read? Tech finished THREE games ahead of us.

It's funny, because you clearly either didn't read or misread the post you're referencing.

 

[AnotherSoonerInTX]

Regardless of what one thinks about Moser, I think this a really worthwhile question (would also include BU) as to what differentiates those programs from OU now and how those differences evolved over the past 15-20 years.

As a fan whose formative experience was late 90s/early 2000s, Tech, ISU, & BU were likely wins for Sampson’s teams. But that has obviously changed significantly post-2010. One could say OU missed on coaching hires (Capel for sure and again, one is free to draw their conclusions about PM) but LK is a HofF coach and his teams still struggled against those teams so again just find it hard to believe it’s possible to completely separate the broader institutional problems from the recent track record.

Yep.

All three of those schools you mentioned were desperate for some sort of success in a revenue sport. While OU was trying to compete for a national championship in the most high-profile sport of football, those three schools were competing for relevance as have-nots competing against the big boys. All of them found a way to be moderately successful in football while being very good in hoops...Tech got to a national championship game and Baylor won one. ISU has had rotten luck in the tournament, but has been very good in the regular season. Baylor has had three major athletic scandals in the last thirty years, but has also built a football stadium and a basketball arena (replacing one newer than Lloyd Noble). What Scott Drew has done there is truly a miracle. Baylor has had some very good years in football, but they're not consistent 10 game winners.

OU, thankfully, isn't willing to pay the price of a Baylor-level scandal. In turn, OU isn't willing to pay the price of consistent 7/8/9 win seasons in football in order to be great in basketball. OU's athletic department and donors have made the calculation to attempt to be great in football and above average in basketball. Especially in the age of NIL, I don't know if it's possible to be a consistent national championship contender in both sports. There may be no more than five schools with the resources to pull that off. Michigan and Ohio State can do that, possibly Florida (and they've slipped in both sports). Alabama is trying. Edit: Texas most definitely can. They just haven't had the right coaches at the same time.