Have you forgiven Kelvin Sampson?

[NickZepp]

I don't know about that, Ooner. He cheated and then left us to deal with his mess. I do think there was something to forgive.

For those answering "No": How long will it be until you do forgive him? The man did a ton of good things for OU and this basketball program. I would hope that all of us would be able to focus on those things at some point in time. He was the reason that I became a fan, and I still appreciate all the wins and how hard his teams played.

Zepp,

There were more than two years that we should have done better in the tournament. The worst one was the team that lost to freakin UMW in the first round. That was awful, awful.

That team was playing awful ball at that point in the year. UMW was just a better team. I remember going into that game feeling we would lose. Let's look at each of his tournament seasons.

1995-Manhatten inexcusable, should have won that one.
1996-Temple was the better team. Was a 7 vs 10 game also played a tough style that really slowed OU down. Temple was also an experienced NCAA Tournament
1997-Lost to a better seed in Stanford
1998-Lost to a better seed and should have won that game
1999-Sweet Sixteen as a 13 seed
2000-Lost to Indiana State and Hollis Price was hurt and no JR Raymond
2001-You can argue that OU didn't go as far as they should have. Lost to another Indiana team.
2002-Final Four
2003 Elite 8
2005-Lost to Utah in a game where they couldn't miss a shot. I feel we played as good as we could have in that game they hit everything imaginable.

I can see see 1995 and 2001 are the 2 arguments you have. I don't consider 2000 because of other issues. When 2 of your best guards are out that hurts. Even if we manage to win that game we would have been lucky to be humiliated in the next game. And maybe you consider the 10-7 years as disappointments. 2006 we lost to a team that was a Sweet 16 team the year before, they were the better team.

 

[Sam]

In 2000 OU lost in the 2nd round to Purdue, OU was a 3 seed who lost to a 6 seed.
2001 is when OU got beat by Indiana St as a 4 seed, I know JR was kicked off the team and Hollis got hurt late in the game. But OU had many chances to beat a 13 seed and should have, I also know the team played a little over their heads to get that 4 seed by beating Mizzou, KU and Texas to win the Big 12 tournament (after JR had been kicked off) but they still should've beat Indiana St.

You forget about the 1st round exit to the Wisconsin-Milwaukee in Sampson's final year in 2006 Nick, OU was a 6 seed and with the talent on that team should no way have lost to a 11.

So in my book there are 5 times (95, 2000, 2001, 2005 and 2006) they came up short in the tournament.

 

[Jason]

While I share everyone's sentiment that he was a good coach, who got the most out of his players, Kelvin Sampson was the biggest jerk to deal with while I was working at a certain law firm in Norman. Bob Stoops, on the other hand, is the nicest guy around.

 

[Cheno]

What Elmo said. I'm spot on with him.

 

[Tony]

Sorry, but you will never get me to use that '95 team and the word "underachieve" in the same sentence. That team was expected to do nothing and was coming off a 15-13 season that saw it's best player graduate. That one particular game was disappointing, yes, but there was no underachieving in that team.

If you are making the argument that Coach Sampson underachieved in the NCAA tournament and using that season to put forward that argument, you are making the wrong argument.

I would also strongly disagree with the idea that Coach Sampson always got everything out of all his players, and maybe even most of his players. He seemed to get a lot out of a certain type of player, but when other sorts of players came along, there seemed to be a total breakdown in communication between coach and player, and I think that reflected on the floor.

Finally, I think very little of anectdotal evidence when judging a person's character, but to counter-balance some things in this thread may I say that in all my encounters with him Coach Sampson was perfectly nice and always very gracious.

 

[SoonerfanTU]

Nothing to forgive.

He did ALOT of good for the OU program.

He was nothing but nice to me, and everybody that I know.

While he underachieved a big in the Dance, it's nothing drastic.

I'll always remember him in a good light.

 

[Capel's Mustache]

I don't know about that, Ooner. He cheated and then left us to deal with his mess. I do think there was something to forgive.

For those answering "No": How long will it be until you do forgive him? The man did a ton of good things for OU and this basketball program. I would hope that all of us would be able to focus on those things at some point in time. He was the reason that I became a fan, and I still appreciate all the wins and how hard his teams played.

Zepp,

There were more than two years that we should have done better in the tournament. The worst one was the team that lost to freakin UMW in the first round. That was awful, awful.

Big Time - I am not sure how long it will be for me. I appreciate all the things he did for the program, but I think he showed his true colors in the things he said to the NCAA the first time. Then to "cheat" again...wow just wow

 

[Sid]

Put me in the Elmo camp. If anyone out there happens to run into Rick Greenspan, please stop him and shake his hand. If I ever get the pleasure of meeting him in person, I will take him to Morton's and buy him the most expensive steak they have on the menu. If it wasn't for Rick, we could be the SMU of college basketball.

While he underachieved a big in the Dance, it's nothing drastic.

Dayum! Did you see that, Cheno? I think I just saw HELL freeze over. :ez-laugh:

 

[BigTime]

Nothing to forgive.

He did ALOT of good for the OU program.

He was nothing but nice to me, and everybody that I know.

While he underachieved a big in the Dance, it's nothing drastic.

I'll always remember him in a good light.

I don't know about that, Ooner (replace with TU). He cheated and then left us to deal with his mess. I do think there was something to forgive.

At least be objective, TU. It makes you look foolish to say there is nothing to forgive. There was something to forgive, and there is no denying that.

He was nothing but nice to me and those I know as well. He is a helluva coach and always will be.

 

[gspence]

I don't know if forgiveness comes into it for me because I don't really harbor any particular ill will toward him over his time at OU. My problem with him is that I think he was a fraud and a generally bad person...I felt that way years before he got caught cheating.

Also, I don't think what he did could be called a mistake. It was a deliberate, repetitious system of rule-breaking. No need to rehash everything, but I think most of us know that the things he got caught for weren't the only problems on his watch.

I thought he did a very solid job with the team on the floor while he was here and I hope he can find a way back to the program like Switzer did (I have many similar complaints about Switzer). But I don't feel like its an elephant in the room or anything...if there is never a "homecoming" for him I won't notice...

As someone who knew him and worked for him, this post is non sense. He was not a "fraud and generally a bad person." He is not perfect, but he is a good guy and did a lot of nice things for myself and other people. He also did a very good job during his time at OU and it is unfortunate that it ended the way it did. Yes he is to blame for it, but that is another story.

The people who think they know him because they heard a story or had a bad experience meeting him at a golf tournament or something do not have valid opinions on who he is as a person, enough to say he is "generally a bad person." Put yourself in his shoes and think how easy it would be for someone to say bad things about you when they don't really know you.

Kelvin was a good guy and a great coach. Not saying he was perfect but he is not one of the bad guys in the coaching business believe it or not.

 

[gspence]

Settle down there, Big fella...I wasn't taking you to task or anything, jeez...

Here is how I do and likely will continue to remember the Sampson era:

1-The style of play. Both the good and the bad...I loved how tough the teams were and, as ABD already pointed out, no one wanted to play OU. But I also always thought the style was too constrictive and that he had a hard time maximizing the talents of high-end players. As my friend Daryan Selvy once said, "Kelvin can't coach athletes."

2-Kelvin was a jerk and wasn't really a very good guy. I'm not gonna rehash everything because I know a lot of people are really touchy about that kind of thing and I'm not trying to be "that guy." Let's just say it was my "opinion."

3-The blue shirts. Self-explanatory.

4-The way no two OU fans ever seemed to feel the same way about him. With Capel, the main basketball topic is recruiting. With Sampson, fans were always bickering over one thing or another.

5-The rules violations here and at IU. I'm not giving him a pass at all, but I just don't think of this before the other stuff. I never thought he was a good guy and I never trusted him to do things the right way, so the cheating wasn't too big of a surprise. And while I was never banging the drum trying to get him fired, my initial reaction to the news he went to IU was relief and surprise that IU wanted him.

Kelvin coached your "athlete" friend Daryan Selvy to a Final 4 and nearly a national championship. I thought he did an amazing job with that team.

Kelvin couldn't coach kids like Drew Lavender, but contrary to Selvy's belief, he did a helluva job getting the most out of a team that didn't have a single player go on to the NBA.

 

[BigTime]

As someone who knew him and worked for him, this post is non sense. He was not a "fraud and generally a bad person." He is not perfect, but he is a good guy and did a lot of nice things for myself and other people. He also did a very good job during his time at OU and it is unfortunate that it ended the way it did. Yes he is to blame for it, but that is another story.

The people who think they know him because they heard a story or had a bad experience meeting him at a golf tournament or something do not have valid opinions on who he is as a person, enough to say he is "generally a bad person." Put yourself in his shoes and think how easy it would be for someone to say bad things about you when they don't really know you.

Kelvin was a good guy and a great coach. Not saying he was perfect but he is not one of the bad guys in the coaching business believe it or not.

Agreed, but then can we call any player or coach that we don't "really know" a good or bad person?

I hope that those that really, really like him will agree with me that he is not the right person for a football school like Oklahoma. I say that because his style of coaching and brand of basketball is not going to attact many fans (besides the 5000 or so diehards). I think Capel's style and recruiting has a great chance to maximize our fanbase at OU.

I think he would have been a god at Indiana if he had gotten that thing rolling....

 

[NickZepp]

I don't know about that, Ooner (replace with TU). He cheated and then left us to deal with his mess. I do think there was something to forgive.

The only reason we didn't make the NCAA Tournament Capel's first year is because we didn't play our best player for the first half of the season.

 

[chasephill68]

Ive already forgave Kelvin. I loved the toughness his teams had. That is who the coach was for the sooners when I was a kid and when i really started paying attention to them. He did amazing things for OU and we wouldnt have the current success we are having now if it werent for him.

 

[Cheno]

The people who think they know him because they heard a story or had a bad experience meeting him at a golf tournament or something do not have valid opinions on who he is as a person, enough to say he is "generally a bad person." Put yourself in his shoes and think how easy it would be for someone to say bad things about you when they don't really know you.

GSpence, my only thing is there are way too many bad experience stories or memories from far too many different posters/people. And remember these are people within his own fanbase. Is he as bad as some make it out? Probably not. But rule of thumb is if you treat everyone like you'd like to be treated, treat all people nicely and with respect you wouldn't have all these stories. Again, these aren't stories from OSU fans...these are stories from OU fans. There are far too many to just dismiss them and assign him no responsibility in the deal. Sampson always came across as arrogant and a "his way only" type of guy. I like that on the court...not so much off the court.

 

[SoonerNorm]

As someone who knew him and worked for him, this post is non sense. He was not a "fraud and generally a bad person." He is not perfect, but he is a good guy and did a lot of nice things for myself and other people. He also did a very good job during his time at OU and it is unfortunate that it ended the way it did. Yes he is to blame for it, but that is another story.

The people who think they know him because they heard a story or had a bad experience meeting him at a golf tournament or something do not have valid opinions on who he is as a person, enough to say he is "generally a bad person." Put yourself in his shoes and think how easy it would be for someone to say bad things about you when they don't really know you.

Kelvin was a good guy and a great coach. Not saying he was perfect but he is not one of the bad guys in the coaching business believe it or not.

You brought up two separate points. First, people will always have differing opinions as to whether Kelvin was a "good guy" or not. Fans can/will make that determination by what they have seen or things they heard him say. Some will conclude he is a good guy and some will conclude he is rude and arrogant. Some may say he is both. But, you will never get a consensus as to which best described him as one person may have had a completely different experience around him than someone else did.

When it comes to whether he was a "great coach", I would say "very good", but not great. He has no NC rings. He didn't recruit well enough. He could coach but recruiting is a significant part of being a top level coach. Kelvin never reached that level. If Kelvin could have recruited as well as Jeff is, he would likely have a championship ring and I would then agree with you that he is a great coach. Kelvin very well may be a better x's and o's coach than Jeff, time will answer that question for sure, (I will say that I liked the way Kelvin's teams played defense better than what I've seen so far from Capel's teams) but Jeff has already convinced me he is superior to Kevin when it comes to recruiting. Players make the difference which is why recruiting is so important.

Kelvin did some very good things with our program but I think I speak for many when I say, I could not be happier that we have Jeff as our coach and I believe we are on the verge of seeing a level of basketball at OU that many did not believe was possible.

 

[OULad]

I am over it. I liked him as a coach and was mad with how he left the program. But one could argue its in better shape now than almost anytime he was the coach.

 

[Sid]

You brought up two separate points. First, people will always have differing opinions as to whether Kelvin was a "good guy" or not. Fans can/will make that determination by what they have seen or things they heard him say. Some will conclude he is a good guy and some will conclude he is rude and arrogant. Some may say he is both. But, you will never get a consensus as to which best described him as one person may have had a completely different experience around him than someone else did.

GSpence, my only thing is there are way too many bad experience stories or memories from far too many different posters/people. And remember these are people within his own fanbase. Is he as bad as some make it out? Probably not. But rule of thumb is if you treat everyone like you'd like to be treated, treat all people nicely and with respect you wouldn't have all these stories. Again, these aren't stories from OSU fans...these are stories from OU fans. There are far too many to just dismiss them and assign him no responsibility in the deal. Sampson always came across as arrogant and a "his way only" type of guy. I like that on the court...not so much off the court.

Nice posts by Norm and Cheno. Common Sense 101! That's why I always enjoy reading your comments. By the way, I still think OJ is innocent. I met him once in the LAX airport and he was one of the nicest guys you could ever meet.

I hope that those that really, really like him will agree with me that he is not the right person for a football school like Oklahoma. I say that because his style of coaching and brand of basketball is not going to attact many fans (besides the 5000 or so diehards). I think Capel's style and recruiting has a great chance to maximize our fanbase at OU.

Well stated. The mediocre attitude that permeated the OU basketball program under KS turned off a lot of fans. If you look at the Big 12 today, we would probably be down near the bottom of the league if Kelvin was still our head coach. Looking back on the entire Sampson fiasco, we're fortunate everything worked out ok.

I think he would have been a god at Indiana if he had gotten that thing rolling....

He would have been God but that was never going to happen. Even at a place like Indiana, you can't sit in your office and expect great players to automatically come knocking on your door. You still have to pound the AAU circuit and give your sales pitch. If you don't have the reputation for putting guys in the league, it's a lot harder to convince the top players to come play for you.

FYI, I didn't think Kelvin would last 3 years at IU before getting on the NCAA's bad side again.

 

[IndySooner]

While I share everyone's sentiment that he was a good coach, who got the most out of his players, Kelvin Sampson was the biggest jerk to deal with while I was working at a certain law firm in Norman. Bob Stoops, on the other hand, is the nicest guy around.

He was ALWAYS nice to me when I worked at the Daily. Bob Stoops, on the other hand, treated me very unprofessionally. (In his defense, I graduated after his first year on campus, so therefore, he didn't have time to settle in at that point. I have had many encounters with Coach Stoops away from campus since, and he's always been nothing but cordial.)

I just think there are two sides to every story.

 

[OKURanger]

While I was disappointed in the way the Sampson era at OU ended, I still remembered KS as the coach who got OU to the Final Four and generally put a competitive team on the floor year in and year out.

Sampson is not the recruiter Capel is, but there was a time when he was considered one of the best college BB coaches in the country by the national media. The fact that his teams were generally in the top 25 meant that I got to see many OU games on TV while stationed far away from Oklahoma; and I was always thankful for that.

The way I see it is that KS kept OU Basketball relevant after Tubbs made the program a success. Because of both men's efforts, Castiglione was able to convince a young, highly-talented coach named Capel to come to OU and turn a good program into a powerhouse. Without KS bridging the gap between Tubbs and Capel, I don't know if Capel comes to OU. While OU does not have the BB tradition of Kansas, I can't think of any other programs in the Big 12 that have enjoyed OU's long term success.